Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
You might want to read this http://lifehacker.com/5295449/disable-ubuntus-annoying-update-manager-popup Alex Launi wrote: I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this one. Have at it. === On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com mailto:alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: I had meant to chat with Martin Pitt after his plenary, but never managed to catch up with him. I forgot about it until I was going through my notebook the other day. It would be really great if when update-manager presented itself, some bugs (ones that you reported/subscribed to on LP) had a nice messsage that made you really excited to update because your bug was fixed! Make updates fun! David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or pop-under window) at the install updates on shutdown discussion. Let me preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I think they're great and he deserves the credit. His idea was to do updates at login. We could do the checking while you're using, and then if we find them on reboot show them in gdm with a nice present icon, like we're giving you a gift. This way if an update requires a restart, you don't have to save your state, restart, blah blah blah and interrupt your entire workflow, you haven't started yet. It might not be possible now, but when the clutter gdm finally lands we could do it really beautifully. -- -- Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com mailto:tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. When you turn on the pc it's because you needed. Windows shows the update notification on shutdown, which makes much more sense (and if you just installed some reboot requiring update, even more). I wouldn't oppose to a well done, good designed entry on shutdown: Updates available ! Keeping your system up to date is important. [x] Install the updates before logging out. [ Open the update manager ] - Stefano On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com mailto:alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com mailto:tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence style scene change It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are available, for you! You boot up and arrive at the slick new GDM. But what's this message? New updates available! Click here to install Some days you're very busy, and need your computer right away so you chose to ignore them and log right in. That's ok, they'll be available when you're ready. Update Manager shouldn't go away, you should be able to launch it yourself manually if you want to update once you've logged in and found out that DST was this weekend and you've got some extra time. But today you decide to click. The interface changes nicely into a screen displaying what updates are available, and asking for your username and password to authorize install / log in. If you're not an administrator we will politely tell you that you can't perform an upgrade, and that you should let your administrator know that your system needs some updates. At this point we just finish the login, since you just gave us your info. Awesome. Now let's say you are an admin, this update requires no reboot so we log you right in, and when the desktop is loaded there is already a dialog waiting giving you the progress of your update. You may continue working, you weren't cost much time, and your system is fully secure because you're up to date. But next time there might be a kernel upgrade, which will require a restart. In this case we should ask the user what they'd like to do. In some cases the estimated time to finish (which we will show) may only be 2 minutes, and we can afford that so we just halt the login and modally install the upgrades, or we allow them to say ok i recognize that this update will need a restart to apply, but I need my computer- so lets continue like there are no updates that require a reboot, and I will reboot when I'm ready. blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change Awesome, right? -- --Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Charlie Kravetz c...@teamcharliesangels.com mailto:c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote: What about those who use an autologin? They
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 09.26 -0500, David Siegel ha scritto: I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not think of gurus like us The argument that's for gurus or power users keeps popping up :) This can not be applied here: auto-login is enabled by checking an innocent checkbox during install, and I am sure this is more interesting for non-power-users who have only one user account on their machine. Not that I do not find the idea interesting, it's just an observation on that particular argument that I don't like too much. V. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 09.26 -0500, David Siegel ha scritto: I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not think of gurus like us The argument that's for gurus or power users keeps popping up :) This can not be applied here: auto-login is enabled by checking an innocent checkbox during install, and I am sure this is more interesting for non-power-users who have only one user account on their machine. Not that I do not find the idea interesting, it's just an observation on that particular argument that I don't like too much. V. Yeah. It's a good thing that you pointed out that auto-login can be activated during install. I use the auto-login feature too and run xtrlock on startup for protection but that's already offtopic. I don't think that updates on login or at shutdown is a good idea. Routine fsck can attest to this. Most of the time, it's not the right time to wait for updates because the user is in a hurry to do what he wants to do with the computer, in my case at least. It's a good thing that there's an option now to cancel this routine check. Unlike fsck, updates can be done on a running DE session. If notifying about updates at startup really is a good idea, the right thing to do could be simply notifying the user that there are updates and letting the user choose whether or not to permit the upgrade while not restricting the user from doing typical desktop operations while the upgrade is running. A use case would be Jack wants to IM his classmate soon because she texted him she is already online. Jack turns the computer and sees updates notifications after he logged in. He then permits the upgrade and while the upgrade is running, he opens Pidgin so he can chat right away. The upgrade should be after GDM because some people auto-login or don't use GDM. Also, processing package information while loading GDM would slow down login. That would be very annoying. I also don't agree with updates on shut down. I'm on a laptop and it's annoying when Windows doesn't want to power off when I want it to because I'm uncomfortable with bagging my laptop and carrying it around while it upgrading. That's just bad for my hard drive and my hardware will be hot. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
People who auto-login or never restart can be handled differently.
Personally, I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not
think of gurus like us, who participate on Linux mailing lists, and let's
think instead about the average user, who might be made uncomfortable by
computers in general, and may be nervous about their first venture into
Linux.
The core of the idea is, at the face browser, there is a present icon when
you have updates already downloaded and ready to install. They might even be
unpacked already. Beside the present is a simple description like 13
updates available, requires restart. Click to update. The user either logs
in as usual, ignoring the icon (maybe it's at the bottom/corner of GDM), or
clicks the present. Clicking the present prompts for a password, and then
shows an elegant progress bar, installing the updates. If the updates
required a restart, the machine simply restarts, and our new 10 second boot
time brings the machine back up before the user even notices it's
restarting. We don't have to confirm shutdown, because nobody is logged in.
Then, the user logs in to her newly updated desktop.
There are drawbacks to this approach, sure, but do you honestly not see any
merit? I think it delivers a much more pleasant experience than asking the
user at shutdown. At GDM, the user is not in a hurry, and they can take a
moment to decide if they would like to update or not. Asking the user to
update at shutdown feels like a rushed decision; the machine is shutting
down, and you have a brief moment to either opt-in or opt-out of updates.
David, don't think I want to discourage you in any way. I'm pretty
happy with initiatives like yours.
But, of course, one has to see which advantages those effectively bring.
Frankly, seems to me that the only merit you cite ('more pleasant
experience') is highly subjective as it is the consideration that at
login the user is less in hurry than on shutdown. The hurry factor, by
the way, varies depending on the platform (desktop/notebook/netbook).
I'd frankly consider a netbook/notebook user always in hurry, and that
brings down both the login/logout alternatives. For a desktop, though,
the shutdown is nicer.
Sure everything can be ignored, but that also means that such feature
would affect a lower percentage of users, making it less compelling.
I also think that doing things at start up will require much more code
respect of the shutdown option and increased complexity in the
configuration panels (see for example the proposed configuration panel
that will be needed for handling the pop-under intrusiveness
http://tinyurl.com/koommq . are we sure we need that?)
A few more points:
- auto-downloading the updates is already there, but it's optional and
opt-in - and for a reason. I couldn't afford to use that in my current
situation for example (pay for bandwith). Slow connections may not
afford it. And so on.
- I think that making the user wait for uploads to complete before
login will lead to quite of a backslash, no matter if it's opt-in.
You're proposing opt-in to an undesiderable feature. I still would
have no problem with that, but I'm sure many people would not like it.
- I have the feeling it will be more difficult to code and would
re-use much less of the existing infrastructure.
As a side note, I don't like having update opt-in even on shutdown,
but for sure I think it would be much better than in GDM and may be
helpful for some.
Let me iterate it again, I don't want to bash you or your idea. I just
think it's not good and I encourage you to find some other good point
about it or come out with something different.
Stefano
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Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
My roll on the Canonical Design and User Experience team is to make Ubuntu the
most enjoyable to use operating system in the world, so I hope you can forgive
me for making [it offers a] more pleasant experience the main thrust of my
argument.
I am not decidedly in favor of updates at GDM over updates at any other point in
time. I am just trying to get us to think more broadly about solutions to the
update problem, and not to jump to premature conclusions.
I can offer other arguable points of merit for updates at GDM:
(1) (This is completely subjective, but my personal experience does include the
experiences of others, and is valid in itself) I often feel less rushed and
stressed when booting my computer as opposed to shutting it down. When I log in,
I wait for applications to load, my mail to download, my music player to start,
etc. When I shutdown, I currently enjoy the luxury that my computer turns off
immediately with no fuss; currently, shutdown does not involve waiting.
(2) Think of portable computer users (laptops and netbooks). They nearly always
have more battery available at boot than at shutdown. In fact, many users shut
their laptops down *only* when they are forced to due so due to an empty
battery. We never want to initiate updates on insufficient power.
(3) Smaller cognitive burden. Think about the worker. At the start of the day,
you boot your machine, grab some coffee, and return to your machine. At the end
of the day, you just want to leave the office! Even if you knew you could leave
something running on your machine and go home, it still might cause a lingering
uncertainty (did it ask me for confirmation? Was there an error? Is my computer
still on right now? Is it logged in?!)
Most of us would be perfectly comfortable initiating an update on shutdown, and
walking away from our machine, but I'm not sure if less sophisticated users are
similarly comfortable behaving this way.
Also, more and more devices running Ubuntu will be laptops and netbooks. We may
want to focus more on those use cases, and less on the use case of a sedentary
desktop.
David
tacone wrote:
People who auto-login or never restart can be handled differently.
Personally, I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not
think of gurus like us, who participate on Linux mailing lists, and let's
think instead about the average user, who might be made uncomfortable by
computers in general, and may be nervous about their first venture into
Linux.
The core of the idea is, at the face browser, there is a present icon when
you have updates already downloaded and ready to install. They might even be
unpacked already. Beside the present is a simple description like 13
updates available, requires restart. Click to update. The user either logs
in as usual, ignoring the icon (maybe it's at the bottom/corner of GDM), or
clicks the present. Clicking the present prompts for a password, and then
shows an elegant progress bar, installing the updates. If the updates
required a restart, the machine simply restarts, and our new 10 second boot
time brings the machine back up before the user even notices it's
restarting. We don't have to confirm shutdown, because nobody is logged in.
Then, the user logs in to her newly updated desktop.
There are drawbacks to this approach, sure, but do you honestly not see any
merit? I think it delivers a much more pleasant experience than asking the
user at shutdown. At GDM, the user is not in a hurry, and they can take a
moment to decide if they would like to update or not. Asking the user to
update at shutdown feels like a rushed decision; the machine is shutting
down, and you have a brief moment to either opt-in or opt-out of updates.
David, don't think I want to discourage you in any way. I'm pretty
happy with initiatives like yours.
But, of course, one has to see which advantages those effectively bring.
Frankly, seems to me that the only merit you cite ('more pleasant
experience') is highly subjective as it is the consideration that at
login the user is less in hurry than on shutdown. The hurry factor, by
the way, varies depending on the platform (desktop/notebook/netbook).
I'd frankly consider a netbook/notebook user always in hurry, and that
brings down both the login/logout alternatives. For a desktop, though,
the shutdown is nicer.
Sure everything can be ignored, but that also means that such feature
would affect a lower percentage of users, making it less compelling.
I also think that doing things at start up will require much more code
respect of the shutdown option and increased complexity in the
configuration panels (see for example the proposed configuration panel
that will be needed for handling the pop-under intrusiveness
http://tinyurl.com/koommq . are we sure we need that?)
A few more points:
- auto-downloading the updates is already there, but it's optional and
opt-in - and for a reason. I couldn't afford to use that in my
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Siegeldavid.sie...@canonical.com wrote: Most of us would be perfectly comfortable initiating an update on shutdown, and walking away from our machine, but I'm not sure if less sophisticated users are similarly comfortable behaving this way. Most users don't care about updates and don't want to care about them. Ideally all updates should be installed automatically in the background without the user noticing anything. There is a strong study by google favoring silenty updating the browser, as google chrome does: http://www.techzoom.net/publications/silent-updates/index.en Quote from the conclusion: With silent updates, the user does not have to care about updates and system maintenance and the system stays most secure at any time. We think this is a reasonable default for most Internet users. Furthermore, silent updates are already well accepted for Internet Web applications. Of course this has some downsides, but in the end, I think this is the way to go, not bothering the end user with any computer maintainance tasks. Cheers, Wouter ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit updates, I get smacked :) David Wouter Stomp wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Siegeldavid.sie...@canonical.com wrote: Most of us would be perfectly comfortable initiating an update on shutdown, and walking away from our machine, but I'm not sure if less sophisticated users are similarly comfortable behaving this way. Most users don't care about updates and don't want to care about them. Ideally all updates should be installed automatically in the background without the user noticing anything. There is a strong study by google favoring silenty updating the browser, as google chrome does: http://www.techzoom.net/publications/silent-updates/index.en Quote from the conclusion: With silent updates, the user does not have to care about updates and system maintenance and the system stays most secure at any time. We think this is a reasonable default for most Internet users. Furthermore, silent updates are already well accepted for Internet Web applications. Of course this has some downsides, but in the end, I think this is the way to go, not bothering the end user with any computer maintainance tasks. Cheers, Wouter ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:02 AM, David Siegeldavid.sie...@canonical.com wrote: I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit updates, I get smacked :) Understandable. I should also say that browser upgrades are different from whole OS upgrade (not to mention we have PPA's and similar stuff). That said, the setting for automated upgrades already exists (system-administration-software sources-updates). If you feel this is important, consider proposing a more prominent place to let users opt-in automated upgrades. (like, say, Ubiquity. We may place a Perform the upgrades for me checkbox just under the 'autologin' checkbox) Stefano ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:22 AM, taconetac...@gmx.net wrote: On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:02 AM, David Siegeldavid.sie...@canonical.com wrote: I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit updates, I get smacked :) Had the same experience :-) Understandable. I should also say that browser upgrades are different from whole OS upgrade (not to mention we have PPA's and similar stuff). Of course whole os upgrades are more complicated, but that doesn't make it impossible. There are some problems to be solved (eg firefox behaving strangely when it is updated while in use), but I haven't seen any probkem brought up that can't be solved. That said, the setting for automated upgrades already exists (system-administration-software sources-updates). That works only for security updates. If you feel this is important, consider proposing a more prominent place to let users opt-in automated upgrades. (like, say, Ubiquity. We may place a Perform the upgrades for me checkbox just under the 'autologin' checkbox) That would be nice, and have it checked by default. Wouter ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this one. Have at it. === On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: I had meant to chat with Martin Pitt after his plenary, but never managed to catch up with him. I forgot about it until I was going through my notebook the other day. It would be really great if when update-manager presented itself, some bugs (ones that you reported/subscribed to on LP) had a nice messsage that made you really excited to update because your bug was fixed! Make updates fun! David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or pop-under window) at the install updates on shutdown discussion. Let me preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I think they're great and he deserves the credit. His idea was to do updates at login. We could do the checking while you're using, and then if we find them on reboot show them in gdm with a nice present icon, like we're giving you a gift. This way if an update requires a restart, you don't have to save your state, restart, blah blah blah and interrupt your entire workflow, you haven't started yet. It might not be possible now, but when the clutter gdm finally lands we could do it really beautifully. -- -- Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. When you turn on the pc it's because you needed. Windows shows the update notification on shutdown, which makes much more sense (and if you just installed some reboot requiring update, even more). I wouldn't oppose to a well done, good designed entry on shutdown: Updates available ! Keeping your system up to date is important. [x] Install the updates before logging out. [ Open the update manager ] - Stefano On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence style scene change It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are available, for you! You boot up and arrive at the slick new GDM. But what's this message? New updates available! Click here to install Some days you're very busy, and need your computer right away so you chose to ignore them and log right in. That's ok, they'll be available when you're ready. Update Manager shouldn't go away, you should be able to launch it yourself manually if you want to update once you've logged in and found out that DST was this weekend and you've got some extra time. But today you decide to click. The interface changes nicely into a screen displaying what updates are available, and asking for your username and password to authorize install / log in. If you're not an administrator we will politely tell you that you can't perform an upgrade, and that you should let your administrator know that your system needs some updates. At this point we just finish the login, since you just gave us your info. Awesome. Now let's say you are an admin, this update requires no reboot so we log you right in, and when the desktop is loaded there is already a dialog waiting giving you the progress of your update. You may continue working, you weren't cost much time, and your system is fully secure because you're up to date. But next time there might be a kernel upgrade, which will require a restart. In this case we should ask the user what they'd like to do. In some cases the estimated time to finish (which we will show) may only be 2 minutes, and we can afford that so we just halt the login and modally install the upgrades, or we allow them to say ok i recognize that this update will need a restart to apply, but I need my computer- so lets continue like there are no updates that require a reboot, and I will reboot when I'm ready. blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change Awesome, right? -- --Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Charlie Kravetz c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote: What about those who use an autologin? They will never see those gdm screens. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:17 PM, ajmctaggart ajmctagg...@gmail.com wrote: ...This was hilarious, sexy librarians and all... Me
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
We should definitely consider as many update scenarios as possible in order to find the one that users will prefer. We are very quick to start implementing updates and shut down without considering something radically different because many of us have experiences updates at shutdown when using Windows. Neither solution is perfect, both have their merits, and this is the perfect place to discuss them. May I ask which merits may the Updates-at-login-time have ? It's not that Windows is perfect, but some times there's a rationale behind the choices done by it. (and, btw, I hated the way Windows tried to trick you into upgrading at shutdown) The drawbacks of updates in GDM are many: - some people auto login, they won't see anything (not big issue, but also not nice) - perceived bigger lag between power on and operability (due to the need to perform a choice) - being reminded to reboot right after having just powered on is not nice. - increased delta with Gnome and possible loss of compatibility with existing GDM themes - increases the workload startup (while the updates are being performed), in a timeframe when there's already load (as the gnome desktop is loading, and the first applications you'll launch will load). I don't think we really need to think different at all costs. Stefano ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
