Re: [backstage] 3D?

[J.P.Knight]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tim Scollick wrote:

Big sites with
lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars
will continue to gravitate to Flash.


Which to my mind is a real plus point for Flash.  By not installing the 
flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears from 
the web and you're left with the content.  Which in the case of some 
overly marketing driven sites can be, er, somewhat limited and often 
indicates a company trying to use smoke and mirrors to cover up crappy 
products and/or poor customer service.  I therefore tend to think of Flash 
as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)


YMMV,

Jim'll
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RE: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[Luke Dicken]

> I doubt that any AI program is this far advanced, to be honest. It'd 
> probably generate as much rubbish as good. The Fleisch-Kincaid 
> algorithym just assesses text (not that well), it doesn't alter it.

The algorithms for doing this should be reasonably straightforward fwiw,
but you would need a complete buttload of valid training data in order
to make it work. If anyone is interested in doing this, a good starting
place is probably Knight's paper "A Statistical Machne Translation
Workbook". Using the methods outlined there as a basis and a reasonable
heuristic, you ought to be able to translate mechanically from Highbrow
english to Lowbrow english relatively accurately - but as I say, you
will need a LOT of test cases to make it work.

Luke

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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Richard Lockwood]

You are Jacob Neilsen in disguise and I claim my five pounds.  You want to see everything in black Times Roman on a grey background with no images.  You haven't yet twigged that for the web to be a rich source of ideas, information and innovation, someone needs to pay for it.  Which means paid for content (generally porn - the most successful paid for content by a mile) or advertising and marketing spend.  You choose.

 
Download a copy of Lynx, or Netscape 2.  That should do the trick.
 
Cheers,
 
Rich.
 
 
On 8/11/05, J.P.Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tim Scollick wrote:> Big sites with> lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars
> will continue to gravitate to Flash.Which to my mind is a real plus point for Flash.  By not installing theflash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears fromthe web and you're left with the content.  Which in the case of some
overly marketing driven sites can be, er, somewhat limited and oftenindicates a company trying to use smoke and mirrors to cover up crappyproducts and/or poor customer service.  I therefore tend to think of Flash
as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)YMMV,Jim'll-Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please visit 
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Chris Walker]

J.P.Knight wrote:

By not installing the 
flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears 
from the web and you're left with the content. 


Well no, that isn't true. You disable Flash, the ad servers simply give 
you GIF equivalents; or you're not allowed access to the site full stop.


I therefore tend to think 
of Flash as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)


Does that hold true when the content you want is inside a Flash movie?

The BBC's election 'swing-o-meter' and guide to seats/constituencies for 
example...


C.
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Re: [backstage] Remote control of Radio Player

[Neil Smith [MVP Digital Media]]

At 20:16 10/08/2005 +0100, you wrote:


[Re-send my first posting did not reach the list]

I have been using Dave Crosss Radio Player streams list in order to be 
able to control Radio Player and select streamed programmes from my remote 
control.



In each instance where you mention "Radio Player", are you referring to 
(web-page embedded) Real Player ?

I can only guess this from the javascript function calls you listed below.


My remote control is a Pocket PC and controls the PC - which is the sole 
domestic TV, and which is controlled *only* from the PPC, with no keyboard 
or mouse. I attach a screenshot of its use with Radio Player. This screen 
fits into a wider set of about 30 screens controlling all aspects of my 
TV/Audio system, including: Live TV; Radio; PVR (with Radio Times XMLTV 
data on the remote); CD; DVD; 1-track media library; Photos; etc. See 
http://brianavid.com for a fuller description.



Yeah that's interesting site (but off list in terms of discussion !)
I settled on Vito Remote and Vinyl for controlling the media players over 
wifi.

Nice you've documented it all though, good hobbyist stuff ;-)


Consequently I have written new RP software for the server(my TV) and the 
client(my remote control) to list, select and control programmes through 
Radio Player. My plan is to make this source freely available later this 
month when it has bedded down (I use the MIT open source license for my stuff).


2. The Radio Player insists occasionally on popping up the message Would 
you like to resume listening from where you left off? &. But my TV has no 
keyboard or mouse. So I cant interact with the server in a normal PC-like 
way. In reading the RP JavaScript, I can find no way of inhibiting this 
message externally from my player server application (which wraps Radio 
Player as an ActiveX control). So far my only work-around is to use PTFB - 
a $30 external application which presses the Cancelbutton when this 
message appears. This is a very ugly solution!



OK I'll bite : If you *are* referring to Real Player then have a look on 
the Tools -> Preferences menu.


General -> Playback settings is where you want next. Look at the top 2 
checkboxes - uncheck "Temporarily extend this duration if paused for 
longer", because that'll be triggering the request to 'do you want to stay 
on pause'. Or you could try to extend the pause time to 12 hours (you'd 
probably stop the radio stream by then as most people need to sleep in one 
of any of 2-12 hour cycles ;-)



3. All my other remote control screens have extensive real-time feedback 
from the currently playing TV or audio - e.g. TV now&nextfor the current 
channel, program counters and sliders for audio, DVDs and TV recordings, 
currently playing track, etc. I would really like to have similar feedback 
data from RP. I have yet to find how I can get the 
document.RP.GetPosition() and document.RP.GetLength() values


Have you tried window.RP.GetLength() yet ? The real player object may be a 
window level object (it's an embed) rather than a document level object. 
Otherwise if you can point to the page URL which documents your embedding 
code, I'll probably be able to help once I see what's there at present. 
Let's take this part off list though, cause it's not really backstage linked.



HTH
Cheers - Neil 


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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Sadiq Jaffer]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 10:51, Chris Walker wrote:
> > I therefore tend to think
> > of Flash as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)
>
> Does that hold true when the content you want is inside a Flash movie?
>
> The BBC's election 'swing-o-meter' and guide to seats/constituencies for
> example...

This is where Flashblock (http://flashblock.mozdev.org/) for Mozilla/Firefox 
comes in very useful. 

It blocks flash by default but leaves a nice placeholder icon that you can use 
to load the movie should it turn out to be vaguely useful (or even necessary 
for poorly designed websites).

- Sadiq
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RE: [backstage] Remote control of Radio Player

[Brian Collins]

-Original Message-
From: Neil Smith [MVP Digital Media]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 11 August 2005 11:20
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [backstage] Remote control of Radio Player

At 20:16 10/08/2005 +0100, you wrote:

> ... (but off list in terms of discussion !)


> Let's take this part off list though, cause it's not really backstage
linked.


> HTH
> Cheers - Neil 

Thanks Neil,

I will take you up on your offer and follow up by e-mail once I have
investigated your suggestions further.

I realize my posting was somewhat off topic, but 
1) I wanted to throw in another possible use of Dave Cross's streams listing
and this is the only forum I had found - I had been looking for a source of
this data for months.
2) I wanted to add weight to any argument for the data to be made available
in the future directly from the BBC in a robust (not screen scraped) manner.
3) I hoped to take advantage of the expertise on this list in order to solve
my residual problems. In this (at least) I seem to have had some success 
:-).

Cheers

Brian

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Re: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[Graeme Mulvaney]

FK is ok, to a point - but it assumes that the language being used is appropriate for the audience. I had a quick look into it last night and it's probably not appropriate for the Backstage feeds; you need more than 200 words in the sample for the score to have any real meaning.

On 8/11/05, Luke Dicken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I doubt that any AI program is this far advanced, to be honest. It'd> probably generate as much rubbish as good. The Fleisch-Kincaid
> algorithym just assesses text (not that well), it doesn't alter it.The algorithms for doing this should be reasonably straightforward fwiw,but you would need a complete buttload of valid training data in order
to make it work. If anyone is interested in doing this, a good startingplace is probably Knight's paper "A Statistical Machne TranslationWorkbook". Using the methods outlined there as a basis and a reasonable
heuristic, you ought to be able to translate mechanically from Highbrowenglish to Lowbrow english relatively accurately - but as I say, youwill need a LOT of test cases to make it work.Luke-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html
.  Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/-- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. 

Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Robin Berjon]

Chris Walker wrote:

J.P.Knight wrote:

I therefore tend to think of Flash as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)


Does that hold true when the content you want is inside a Flash movie?


There's a more subtle alternative. Firefox has a nice extension called 
Flashblock which'll replace all SWF content with a small button which 
you can click to have the SWF appear should you wish (or be forced) to 
see it.


That being said, on one of my boxes I still haven't upgraded from Flash 
4, and that does tend to work quite well as a "wheat-from-chaff 
separator" :)


--
Robin Berjon
  Senior Research Scientist
  Expway, http://expway.com/


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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[J.P.Knight]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Chris Walker wrote:

Does that hold true when the content you want is inside a Flash movie?

The BBC's election 'swing-o-meter' and guide to seats/constituencies for 
example...


With that example, "yep". :-)

Jim'll
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[backstage] BESTIE

[Gordon Joly]

Anybody working on BETSIE?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/

I have some ideas


Gordon

--
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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Re: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[Ted Gilchrist]

Hi Graeme,

   Yes, I've downloaded and compiled the CSLU toolkit.
However, a while back, I upgraded Festival and had a lot of trouble
getting the CSLU toolkit to compile. After much back and forth with
Esther Klabbers there, I got it working, but the voices never sounded
quite the same again. Worse, I found that I couldn't switch back and
forth from the Oregon voices to the Festival voices without crashing
the system.

  This was problematic, because the story line of some of my skits
was that ked diphone was falling in love with tll diphone.

   I keep hoping somebody will produce a nice neat RPM
package for all this stuff. By the way, are you the guy who does the
chatbots? I think that stuff is really cool. I think the whole area of
speech is exciting, and there are a thousand different directions to
take it. For example, I've been wondering about creating a cell phone
based service that would allow people to remotely monitor various
systems. Sort of an  extension to balancing your checkbook by
interactiing with a voice system.

TedOn 8/10/05, Graeme Mulvaney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was using the festival engine, but the voices were getting on my
nerves :(  If you're interested in speech then you should have a
look at the CLSU toolkit from Oregon University :
 
http://cslu.cse.ogi.edu/toolkit/
 
(be warned... the download can take up to an hour... regardless of your bandwidth) 
I used it to help me get the visemes for my avatar working
correctly - the Disney group of 12 are ok for most words, but they're
based on US english pronunciation and don't quite fit UK english.
 
 
On 8/10/05, Ted Gilchrist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Davy,I use the Festival speech system. One huge advantage is that it's open software, and free. 

  One thing I've discovered. You listen to these voices long
enough, and you grow quite fond of them, like a favorite uncle.  For something completely different, check out the comedy schtick at 

www.botcast.com.Ted 

On 8/10/05, Davy Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote: 
On 8/8/05, Ted Gilchrist <

[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>I guess this would qualify as an aurally repurposed backstage project:>  

 http://feeds.feedburner.com/bbcworldRebotcastSounds like it uses the Java TTS system. Personally I don't like theway it sounds :-)Hate to say it, but the MS speech stuff is pretty good though the

documentation is somewhat difficult to follow.A good Python wrapper is pyTTShttp://www.cs.unc.edu/~parente/tech/tr02.shtml
Cheers,Davy Mitchell http://www.latedecember.com-Sent via the 

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-- Botcast Network: http://www.botcastnetwork.com
-- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. 

-- Botcast Network: http://www.botcastnetwork.com

RE: [backstage] BESTIE

[Ben Metcalfe]

Hey Gordo, hope you are well.

BETSIE is no longer maintained by the BBC as an in-house project, but
instead is an example of where we are moving projects like this into the
open-source arena.

BETSIE is now maintained over at sourceforge:
http://betsie.sourceforge.net/, .  The project page for BETSIE is at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/betsie/.


There is a mailing list via sourceforge which may also be a good forum
to communicate your ideas, and find out how you can commit changes to
the deployment branch of BETSIE.



All the best,

Ben Metcalfe :: backstage.bbc.co.uk



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> Sent: 11 August 2005 13:22
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Cc: Gordon Joly
> Subject: [backstage] BESTIE
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody working on BETSIE?
> 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/

I have some ideas


Gordon

-- 
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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[backstage] Re: BESTIE

[Gordon Joly]

At 13:22 +0100 11/8/05, Gordon Joly wrote:

Anybody working on BETSIE?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/

I have some ideas




See

http://sourceforge.net/projects/betsie/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/luci/


"Luci is an accessibility tool (html parser written in Perl) designed 
to provide users with a text-only experience of a web site. Inspired 
by the Betsie project, Luci offers features such as ssl, cookies, 
frames, 401 authorization (ie. htaccess), etc..."



Gordo


--
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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RE: [backstage] BESTIE

[Gordon Joly]

At 14:12 +0100 11/8/05, Ben Metcalfe wrote:

Hey Gordo, hope you are well.

BETSIE is no longer maintained by the BBC as an in-house project, but
instead is an example of where we are moving projects like this into the
open-source arena.



So BETSIE is your long lost daughter?

Anyroad, it is still the first link on the BBC Home Page.

Gordo


--
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Tim Scollick]

Dell, Coke, Nike, Microsoft, GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Nissan, Adidas...

I could go on, but I'll spare you.  These are all companies that use
Flash in their marketing efforts.  Companies this big don't survive on
"smoke and mirrors to cover up crappy products".

You and the rest of the slashdot crowd can do whatever you want to
slag Flash to each other.  The less "real" developers that are doing
Flash, the more money I'm going to get paid to do develop
sophisticated ads, eLearning courseware and Rich Internet
Applications.  Thanks Jim'll!

Oh and make sure that you don't block all of the Flash you see with
your plugins.  Otherwise, you'll miss a preview of the kind of work
that you and your dhtml buddies will be doing in three years (or
whenever the W3C figures out vectors, audio and video).


On 8/11/05, J.P.Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tim Scollick wrote:
> > Big sites with
> > lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars
> > will continue to gravitate to Flash.
> 
> Which to my mind is a real plus point for Flash.  By not installing the
> flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears from
> the web and you're left with the content.  Which in the case of some
> overly marketing driven sites can be, er, somewhat limited and often
> indicates a company trying to use smoke and mirrors to cover up crappy
> products and/or poor customer service.  I therefore tend to think of Flash
> as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)
> 
> YMMV,
> 
> Jim'll
> -
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>

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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Chris Walker]

Tim Scollick wrote:


Dell, Coke, Nike, Microsoft, GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Nissan, Adidas...


Indeed.

We "do" VW - www.newgolfgti.co.uk being the latest.

Try doing that in HTML.

I'm not a Flash developer, but I am appreciative of what it can do and 
when it should be deployed. Flash can't do plenty of seemingly obvious 
things; which is why it should only be used where it makes a proper 
impact and delivers the needed experience.


Much like any technology really.

C.

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[backstage] TV & Radio schedule competition - update

[Ben Metcalfe]

Hello all,

I'm pleased to announce that we've been able to update the Ts&Cs of the
backstage.bbc.co.uk TV & Radio schedule competition so that it is no
longer restricted to UK entries.  To confirm, we can now accept entries
from international users, in addition to UK users as before.

So, there's now no excuse not to enter, and be in the running to win
your very own rackmount server!

http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2005/07/first_backstage.html


We continue to be excited about the innovative and imaginative uses you
guys are coming up with that use this data!  You may also be interested
to know that the competition has received a lot of positive publicity
from both the consumer and industry press:

http://www.pcw.co.uk/2140388
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/click/rss/1.0/-/2/hi/technology/4707187.stm
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=
1001010796
http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=5040
http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?section=cm&id=2421
+more
(http://news.google.com/news?q=%28backstage.bbc.co.uk+OR+bbc+backstage%2
9+competition)

I certainly expect a lot of follow up pieces about the entries, once the
competition closes - so this is also a great opportunity to get some
high-profile attention for your work!



Feel free to drop me a line if you need more details + best of luck.


Ben Metcalfe :: backstage.bbc.co.uk

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[backstage] examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Where are the graphical or aurally re-purposed 'backstage' projects?

I'm having great difficulty accessing any examples of ideas or  
prototypes that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text.


About 10% of the population is functionally illiterate.

Many people prefer graphics to text, and most of us, who are visually  
able, for instance use and understand the 'home button'.


text news feeds are excellent for those that don't have access to  
graphics, but a newspaper without images doesn't seem to be popular  
at the present time.


cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd
design consultant
accessibility for people with learning difficulties

recent reference: http://www.bsi-global.com/accessibility


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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Peter Gordon]

Trainspotters are the only ones who think like this these days :-)

Big Brother will never lose it's opening credits ... whatever the content...
It's very very rare that the 10 o'clock news ever has...

A book will always have a cover (smoke?)... And a dissertation will always
have an abstract(mirror?)

Like it or lump it - people want tastes to have flavours not just
ingredients...

we need great chefs  to enliven our experiences and if we're going to get
them - we need educated consumers...


- Original Message -
From: "J.P.Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [backstage] 3D?


> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tim Scollick wrote:
> > Big sites with
> > lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars
> > will continue to gravitate to Flash.
>
> Which to my mind is a real plus point for Flash.  By not installing the
> flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears from
> the web and you're left with the content.  Which in the case of some
> overly marketing driven sites can be, er, somewhat limited and often
> indicates a company trying to use smoke and mirrors to cover up crappy
> products and/or poor customer service.  I therefore tend to think of Flash
> as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)
>
> YMMV,
>
> Jim'll
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Brit]

Tim Scollick wrote:

Dell, Coke, Nike, Microsoft, GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Nissan, Adidas...


Indeed.

We "do" VW - www.newgolfgti.co.uk being the latest.

Try doing that in HTML.

No, I'm not a Flash developer, but I am appreciative of what it can do 
and when it should be deployed. Flash can't do plenty of seemingly 
obvious things; which is why it should only be used where it makes a 
proper impact and delivers the needed experience.


Much like, er, any technology really.

C.

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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Amias Channer]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:44:01 -0400
Tim Scollick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think that your non-Flash rant is biased and uninformed.  

Well i am web technology journalist so i suppose thats my mission ;-)

> Why is it always Flash vs. HTML?  Flash can supplement HTML and vice
> versa.  They are good at different things.  

Because thats how the decision is made in my experience :

client:   we want to do this with our site , can we do it and what are the 
options ?
me:  Yes , probably , that looks like a either an AJAX or Flash job because 
of .

I know that is technically possible to share a datasource between a flash 
interface
and an HTML one . The problem is that it is rare that people put the effort 
into developing
alternative methods to display that data that they do into the flash site. 
Especially given
the expense of developing flash applications.

> The Medium is the Message.
The medium is the medium , the message is the content . 
For me good web design is about making the right choice where to seperate 
content
from delivery and presentation . Flash has never been good at that .
 
> > What gets me is that it doesn't degrade , at all . you don't have
> > the plugin or even the latest version of the plugin you don't get
> > the site .
> 
> That's what JavaScript detection is for.

Thats not gracefull degredation , thats making 2 websites.
 
> >Ever tried navigating a flash site with speech reader , braille pad ,
> >set-top-box browser , text mode only or mobile phone ?
> 
> This area admittedly has a few shortcomings, but Flash has support for
> Section 508, plug-ins for set top boxes and mobile phones.  If you're
> doing text heavy sites in Flash, you've got bigger problems.

'a few shortcomings' is a very polite way of describing it , i prefer
the phrase 'a complete lack of support' . There is definately a special
section in hell for people that do those scrolling blocks of text in
flash.
 
> Flash isn't for everything.  Obviously, Amazon, Yahoo, eBay will use
> html.  But trying doing marketing heavy, or real eLearning material
> with "standards".  You don't get audio.  You don't get video.  You
> don't get designer friendly tools to animate and you don't get cross
> browser scripting.

Ok , so i'm obviously looking at this from the backend and you seem to
be looking from the visual design perspective . You also seem more
comfortable with internet marketing than i do but then most people are.

I'd take issue with the no audio or video thing , the standards based
approach allows a comfortable seperation of the data and gives more
flexibility to the user .

This does conflict with DRM quite heavily in that its impossible to hide
your data sources . In response i would say that DRM is misguided and
just pisses people off . DRM cracking is a pretty much a sport these
days so its use is pointless. If you want it on the internet be prepared
for anybody to have access to it , er , end of . 
 
> I wish there were standard tools to do what Flash does (Firefox gave
> me hope, M$ squashed that hope with IE 7).  But I think that, just
> like AJAX, "standards" will continue following in Flash's footsteps
> and Macromedia will stay one step ahead of the dhtml (or whatever
> acronym you're giving it today) world for a long time.  Big sites with
> lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars 
> will continue to gravitate to Flash.

sounds like quite a grim future to me , i'd prefer a more positive one 
where developers and system designers realise their responsibily in
shaping the internet around open standards , just like the people before
them did. The internet without standards would be horrific .

If you go with the standards they will flourish , if you don't use them
they wont . Saying that Microsoft will kill SVG with IE7 is making their
job easier , if people code stuff with standards compliant SVG and it
doesn't work in IE7 then people will switch browsers. I think you 
should have more faith in your ability to effect change .
 
> Go ahead and have your fun with html (actually, javascript).  The
> clients I work with want to use Flash AND html.

AJAX is more than just HTML and Javascript , its whole different design
pattern . AJAX is about streams of data , events handling and DOM population
instead of loading a new page for each response . You should try it , its great 
fun .
This for me is the real reason people use flash , to avoid page refreshes.

Sorry to anyone who feels trolled by this , its not my intention to annoy.
I just felt the need to respond to something be touted as fact that doesn't 
seem so to me.

Toodle-pip
Amias
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RE: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[Siobhan Ramsey]

Hi Ted,

 

I would be interested in this for
educational use and to learn more about IRIS and to see it if it could link
into a project we are working on for schools in the UK.

Siobhan Ramsey

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Gilchrist
Sent: 08 August 2005 21:55
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Where are
the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?



 

Hi, 

  I guess this would qualify as an aurally repurposed backstage project:

http://feeds.feedburner.com/bbcworldRebotcast


Ted Gilchrist





On 8/8/05, David
Tattersall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

I have create some software that takes the images from BBC news stories
and
provided a searchable database. However I had difficulty getting it live
onto the web (problem with accessing a remote IP from my host). This is 
supposedly sorted now, however since then I've moved onto pastures anew. If
there is sufficient demand then I'd happily upload Iris (as it's called) for
people to play around with.

David

-Original Message- 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd 
Sent: 08 August 2005 6:34
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that
isn't text?

Where are the graphical or aurally re-purposed 'backstage' projects? 

I'm having great difficulty accessing any examples of ideas or prototypes
that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text.

About 10% of the population is functionally illiterate.

Many people prefer graphics to text, and most of us, who are visually able, 
for instance use and understand the 'home button'.

text news feeds are excellent for those that don't have access to graphics,
but a newspaper without images doesn't seem to be popular at the present
time. 

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd
design consultant
accessibility for people with learning difficulties

recent reference: http://www.bsi-global.com/accessibility



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Re: [backstage] Google News launch RSS and Atom service

[Amias Channer]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:50:51 +0100
Tony Hirst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Out of interest - how *do* google get away with republishing other
> providers news?

With great wads of cash paid to licence them i suspect , google have
a lot of funds at their disposal which can make certain options 
available to them that aren't to others. 

And a now for a not entirely unrelated twist :

It would be useful if a clear method to go from 'prototypes' to production
code using BBC data where available . When i last asked this question i was
asked to email someone for a quote . This is not unacceptable but it is
slightly cumbersome and prevents quite a few coders from using bbc stuff.

If there where a clear path between the backstage content and the commercial
content then more commercial developers would be involved in the backstage 
process.
This would produce more prototypes of a more reusable nature 

Maybe i am misunderstanding the purpose of these open feeds but there where
more signups to commercial use of BBC data as a result then surely this would
be even more of a win for everyone ?

Toodle-pip
Amias

P.S i am more than happy with what bbc backstage have offered so far and am very
pleased that at last my taxes are going toward something i actually approve of 
;-)

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Re: [backstage] bbc2mp3

[David Riddle]

This debate makes me laugh;

It was started when the head of ITNs' new media dept. announced the 
release of an applet that circumvents the BBCs' attempts at DRM, and 
has turned into an attack on the BBCs' reluctance to share its' 
copyrighted material.


I've had a mooch around the ITN site and they don't seem to be 
making any of their content freely available ? If thisn't the case, 
then could somebody publish a link that we could play with.


The BBC are pioneering a broadcasting paradigm with Backstage - no 
other broadcaster is actively encouraging developers to re-purpose 
their information, you should give them a break.




Graeme..

I think you have the wrong end of at least *my* particular stick... 
and Eeyore has a lot of those ;-)


N.B.. Just managed to edit this bit in time after reading Tom's message..

My comment related purely to a post (now proved to be 'fake') with a 
.bbc.co.uk e-Mail address that, as previously suggested, did nothing 
to answer Ave's perfectly genuine question.


I was most certainly *not* attacking that person's employer, assumed 
from the address to be the BBC, in any shape or form, and especially 
not for this excellent initiative.


--
---
Eeyore

My House

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[backstage] Remote control of Radio Player

[Brian Collins]

I have been using Dave Cross’s
Radio Player streams list in order to be able to control Radio Player and
select programmes from my remote control.

 

My remote control is a Pocket
PC and controls the PC - which is the sole domestic TV, and which is controlled
*only* from the PPC, with no keyboard or mouse. I attach a screenshot of its
use with Radio Player. This screen fits into a wider set of about 30 screens controlling
all aspects of my TV/Audio system, including: Live TV; Radio; PVR (with Radio
Times XMLTV data on the remote); CD; DVD; 1-track media library; Photos;
etc. See http://brianavid.com
for a fuller description.

 

Consequently I have written new
RP software for the “server” (my TV) and the “client”
(my remote control) to list, select and control programmes through Radio
Player. My plan is to make this source freely available later this month when
it has bedded down (I use the MIT open source license for my stuff).

 

The issues I have (so far with
limited use) are:

 

1. The list of available
streams and URLs comes from Dave Cross. Thank you so much Dave for providing
this. But I would much rather it came from the BBC, where it is less
susceptible to any changes in the site structure or layout. But Dave’s
screen scraping is the only way today, and it must be considered a risk. Also,
the BBC could add additional data, such as “genre” or “original
broadcast date/time”, which could offer additional listing possibilities.

 

2. The Radio Player insists
occasionally on popping up the message “Would you like to resume
listening from where you left off? …”. But my TV has no keyboard or
mouse. So I can’t interact with the server in a normal PC-like way. In
reading the RP _javascript_, I can find no way of inhibiting this message externally
from my player server application (which wraps Radio Player as an ActiveX
control). So far my only work-around is to use PTFB - a $30 external
application which presses the “Cancel” button when this message appears.
This is a very ugly solution!

 

3. All my other remote control
screens have extensive real-time feedback from the currently playing TV or
audio - e.g. TV “now&next” for the
current channel, program counters and sliders for audio, DVDs and TV
recordings, currently playing track, etc. I would really like to have similar
feedback data from RP. I have yet to find how I can get the document.RP.GetPosition()
and document.RP.GetLength() values out of the control
- maybe this is just my lack of experience in using the DOM. But if I could get
these, then I could display the program counters and state on the remote control . I expect that often, RP will be used with the TV
screen switched off and with sound only, so an on-screen display is of little
use.

 

Does my description make
sense? And is there any feedback on the issues?

 

Thanks

 

Brian Collins

 








RadioPlayer.gif
Description: Binary data

Re: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[Matthew Hurst]

Ted,

You might want to play with the Cepstral system (www.cepstral.com). It
is built on
top of festival (I think - at least one of those involved was a key developer on
festival), but the voices are better. It is also designed for use on
mobile devices.

Matt
http://datamining.typepad.com

On 8/8/05, Siobhan Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> Hi Ted, 
> 
>   
> 
> I would be interested in this for educational use and to learn more about
> IRIS and to see it if it could link into a project we are working on for
> schools in the UK. 
> 
> Siobhan Ramsey 
> 
>   
>  
>  
>  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Gilchrist
>  Sent: 08 August 2005 21:55
>  To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
>  Subject: Re: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content
> that isn't text? 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Hi, 
>  
>I guess this would qualify as an aurally repurposed backstage project:
>  
>  http://feeds.feedburner.com/bbcworldRebotcast
>  
>  
>  Ted Gilchrist
>  
>  
>  
> 
> On 8/8/05, David Tattersall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> I have create some software that takes the images from BBC news stories and
>  provided a searchable database. However I had difficulty getting it live
>  onto the web (problem with accessing a remote IP from my host). This is 
>  supposedly sorted now, however since then I've moved onto pastures anew. If
>  there is sufficient demand then I'd happily upload Iris (as it's called)
> for
>  people to play around with.
>  
>  David
>  
>  -Original Message- 
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd 
>  Sent: 08 August 2005 6:34
>  To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
>  Subject: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content
> that
>  isn't text?
>  
>  Where are the graphical or aurally re-purposed 'backstage' projects? 
>  
>  I'm having great difficulty accessing any examples of ideas or prototypes
>  that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text.
>  
>  About 10% of the population is functionally illiterate.
>  
>  Many people prefer graphics to text, and most of us, who are visually able,
>  for instance use and understand the 'home button'.
>  
>  text news feeds are excellent for those that don't have access to graphics,
>  but a newspaper without images doesn't seem to be popular at the present
>  time. 
>  
>  cheers
>  
>  Jonathan Chetwynd
>  design consultant
>  accessibility for people with learning difficulties
>  
>  recent reference: http://www.bsi-global.com/accessibility 
>  
>  
>  -
>  Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
>  visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html
> .
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>  http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>  
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Stefan Magdalinski]

Richard Lockwood wrote:
You are Jacob Neilsen in disguise and I claim my five pounds.  You want 
to see everything in black Times Roman on a grey background with no 
images.  You haven't yet twigged that for the web to be a rich source of 
ideas, information and innovation, someone needs to pay for it.  Which 
means paid for content (generally porn - the most successful paid for 
content by a mile) or advertising and marketing spend.  You choose.
 
Download a copy of Lynx, or Netscape 2.  That should do the trick.
 
Cheers,
 
Rich.
 


Wow. I thought all the people like you had gone off to design DVD 
interfaces in about '98.


You've clearly never read any Neilsen.

stef




 
On 8/11/05, *J.P.Knight* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tim Scollick wrote:
 > Big sites with
 > lots of content will continue to use html but the marketing dollars
 > will continue to gravitate to Flash.

Which to my mind is a real plus point for Flash.  By not installing the
flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and marketing drivel disappears
from
the web and you're left with the content.  Which in the case of some
overly marketing driven sites can be, er, somewhat limited and often
indicates a company trying to use smoke and mirrors to cover up crappy
products and/or poor customer service.  I therefore tend to think of
Flash
as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)

YMMV,

Jim'll
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Stefan Magdalinski]

Chris Walker wrote:

J.P.Knight wrote:

By not installing the flash plugin all the stupid cartoons and 
marketing drivel disappears from the web and you're left with the 
content. 



Well no, that isn't true. You disable Flash, the ad servers simply give 
you GIF equivalents; or you're not allowed access to the site full stop.



I therefore tend to think of Flash as a "wheat-from-chaff separator". :-)



Does that hold true when the content you want is inside a Flash movie?

The BBC's election 'swing-o-meter' and guide to seats/constituencies for 
example...




of purest chaff...


C.
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[backstage] 3D?

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

SVG is most likely the technology that you seek, as it's accessible  
and from w3c.
it's more like 2D plus animation, which maybe 3.5D rather than the  
full 4D
many mobile phones are already SVG enabled, and the mozilla browser  
deerpark doesn't require a plugin.


festival is an open source 'speech' reader

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd
29 Crimsworth Road
SW8 4RJ

020 7978 1764


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[backstage] Uk geocoder?

[Siobhan Ramsey]

 

Can anyone help me out with where I can
access a free online geocoder for the uk?  Is there a summary/list idiots
guide anywhere of all BBC googlemap  projects.

 

Thanks

 

Siobhan Ramsey









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Mulvaney
Sent: 05 August 2005 15:02
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: Creating New Topics
(Was: [backstage] NewsGlobe Update)



 



I think that using a new subject is better - I'm using gmail which
auto-threads them into conversations, it makes life so much easier.





 





---





 





# I've got another 50 gmail invites - if anybody wants an account just
mail me...

 





On 8/5/05, Dave
Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 

On Fri, Aug 05, 2005 at 01:01:30PM +0100, David Burden wrote:

[ interesting stuff that had nothing to do with what he was replying to ] 

David,

When creating a new topic of dicussion on this (or any other) mailing
list, it's a really good idea to create a completely new email instead
of just replying to an old one an changing the subject. 

The reason for this is that when you reply to an email, your mail
program inserts headers called 'In-Reply-To' and 'References' which
indicate which discussion thread your email belongs to. When someone
reads your email in a program that supports a threaded view of the 
discussion (e.g. thunderbird or mutt) then the program uses those
headers to work out where to display your message.

As a result, your email about NewsGlobe appeared way down in the
discussion on Ave's bbc2mp3 instead of in its own new thread. 

I realise that most people don't use threaded email readers so they
don't notice the problem, but it can get really annoying for those of
us who do.

Thanks,

Dave...

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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Richard Lockwood]

On 8/11/05, Stefan Magdalinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Richard Lockwood wrote:> You are Jacob Neilsen in disguise and I claim my five pounds.  You want
> to see everything in black Times Roman on a grey background with no> images.  You haven't yet twigged that for the web to be a rich source of> ideas, information and innovation, someone needs to pay for it.  Which
> means paid for content (generally porn - the most successful paid for> content by a mile) or advertising and marketing spend.  You choose.>> Download a copy of Lynx, or Netscape 2.  That should do the trick.
>> Cheers,>> Rich.>Wow. I thought all the people like you had gone off to design DVDinterfaces in about '98.You've clearly never read any Neilsen.stef

 
Sorry Stefan, but I've read a lot of Neilsen over the years, and he still manages to frequently annoy me.  However my comment was perhaps over flippant when dealing with a serious subject, and for that I apologise.

 
My point however that what you and J.P. describe as "chaff" is neccessary for the evolution and development of the web still holds.  Someone has to pay for all this wonderful "free" content - if you can come up with a better globally applicable model for it than advertising or paid content then all power to you.

 
Yes, granted, there's a lot of irritating stuff being produced in Flash and other advertising media - but there's been an awful lot of rubbish produced in the name of "content" too, both in print and on the web.  But no-one would wish to ban the written word.  The delivery method is not the culprit, the lack of creativity is.   Would you throw your TV set away simply because you didn't enjoy some of the programmes?

 
I thought people like you had gone off to smash mill machinery in about 1812.
 
Cheers,
 
Rich. 

Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Dave Cross]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 04:30:05PM +0100, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> 
> My point however that what you and J.P. describe as "chaff" is
> neccessary for the evolution and development of the web still holds.
> Someone has to pay for all this wonderful "free" content - if you can
> come up with a better globally applicable model for it than
> advertising or paid content then all power to you.

You seem to be confusing two completely orthoganal points here. I haven't
seen anyone (here) say that there shouldn't be paid content or advertising
on the web. People are just complaining about the overuse of Flash on
web sites. A lot of the annoying Flash that I see has nothing to do with
advertising.

> Yes, granted, there's a lot of irritating stuff being produced in Flash and 
> other advertising media - but there's been an awful lot of rubbish produced 
> in the name of "content" too, both in print and on the web. But no-one would 
> wish to ban the written word. The delivery method is not the culprit, the 
> lack of creativity is.

Sure. But the difference is that I can skim-read some plain HTML and
decide that it's crap in a lot less time than it takes to download and
watch a crap Flash animation.

It wastes a lot less of my time.

> Would you throw your TV set away simply because you didn't enjoy some
> of the programmes?

No, but I might avoid channels that constantly used advertising
techniques that annoyed me (like DOGs or constant crazy frog adverts).

> I thought people like you had gone off to smash mill machinery in
> about 1812.

No. We've spent the last ten years building the world wide web for
people like you to crap all over :)

Dave...

-- 
  Let me see you make decisions / Without your television


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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Chris Walker]

Richard Lockwood wrote:

Sorry Stefan, but I've read a lot of Neilsen over the years, and he 
still manages to frequently annoy me.  


Neilsen's alertbox and so on make interesting reading occasionally, but 
his updates rarely marry nicely with anything in the real world. The key 
of course, like anything claiming authoratitive stature in such a 
subjective environment is to digest and cherry pick.


If you take what he says at face value, every single man, woman and 
child on the planet is a soulless automaton, void of imagination or the 
capacity to learn, and only seeking instant content gratification with 
little regard for new experiences (in one click).


Which is fine; because if you use his stuff as a gentle guideline, you 
can often stop UI designers & others making the most fundamental mistake 
as they pursue the next AJAX dream.


I know at least one person who glorifies the e-ground on which Jacob et 
al tread; and he has yet to convince me that putting everything in plain 
text, 80 characters wide, is a good idea for anything but BBS. How retro.


Its like trying to apply DDA level 3 to everything you do; it simply 
isn't going to happen, so we nod in the direction of those who 
evangelise such things in often truly Puritannical style, and move on.


My point however that what you and J.P. describe as "chaff" is 
neccessary for the evolution and development of the web still holds.  
Someone has to pay for all this wonderful "free" content - if you can 
come up with a better globally applicable model for it than advertising 
or paid content then all power to you.


Two words: Google Micropayment :)

You hit the nail on the head of course; advertising is the vehicle on 
the back of which people initially start making money to fund their 
site(s).


I'd like to see the Firefox extension that gets round that, when it arrives.

C.

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RE: [backstage] News Images

[David Tattersall]

I just open the low graphics version and grab any URLs from 
there - I can then store the URLs and appropriate keywords. The images are then 
displayed as search results.
 
David


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Duncan 
BarclaySent: 10 August 2005 9:35To: 
backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: Re: [backstage] News 
Images
No, and I doubt you would be allowed 
to use the images even if there was.Ben has quite an interesting post 
about the use of images on Google News and other sides using the Google News RSS 
feed on his blog, at http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2005/08/09/goole-news-rss-opens-up-a-whole-set-of-rights-issues/ 
, which does explain some of the problems related to using the 
images.Hope that helps,DuncanGraeme 
Mulvaney wrote: 
Is 
  there a feed associating images with news items knocking about 
  somewhere ?
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Re: [backstage] Uk geocoder?

[Ben O'Neill]

What are you interested in?  Placenames to latitude / longitude or postcodes?

I have a database for placenames with latitude/longitude but no postcodes.

See:
http://www.jibble.org/ukpostcodes/


On 06/08/05, Siobhan Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Can anyone help me out with where I can access a free online geocoder for
> the uk?  Is there a summary/list idiots guide anywhere of all BBC googlemap 
> projects. 
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks 
> 
>   
> 
> Siobhan Ramsey 
>  
>  
>  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Mulvaney
>  Sent: 05 August 2005 15:02
>  To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
>  Subject: Re: Creating New Topics (Was: [backstage] NewsGlobe Update) 
> 
>   
>  
> 
> I think that using a new subject is better - I'm using gmail which
> auto-threads them into conversations, it makes life so much easier. 
>  
> 
>   
>  
> 
> --- 
>  
> 
>   
>  
> 
> # I've got another 50 gmail invites - if anybody wants an account just mail
> me...
>  
>
>  
> 
> On 8/5/05, Dave Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 05, 2005 at 01:01:30PM +0100, David Burden wrote:
>  
>  [ interesting stuff that had nothing to do with what he was replying to ] 
>  
>  David,
>  
>  When creating a new topic of dicussion on this (or any other) mailing
>  list, it's a really good idea to create a completely new email instead
>  of just replying to an old one an changing the subject. 
>  
>  The reason for this is that when you reply to an email, your mail
>  program inserts headers called 'In-Reply-To' and 'References' which
>  indicate which discussion thread your email belongs to. When someone
>  reads your email in a program that supports a threaded view of the 
>  discussion (e.g. thunderbird or mutt) then the program uses those
>  headers to work out where to display your message.
>  
>  As a result, your email about NewsGlobe appeared way down in the
>  discussion on Ave's bbc2mp3 instead of in its own new thread. 
>  
>  I realise that most people don't use threaded email readers so they
>  don't notice the problem, but it can get really annoying for those of
>  us who do.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Dave...
>  
>  --
>  Stab a sorry heart 
>  With your favourite finger
>  
>  
>  -
>  Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
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> 
> 
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. 


-- 
Ben O'Neill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?

[David Tattersall]

Hello all,
 
I've uploaded Iris and have asked my host to unblock the IP 
the bbc feeds reside at so it can work fully.
 
It seems the IP for newsrss.bbc.co.uk is actually different 
than the ip for the actual feeds(!)
 
When that's done I'll post the link.
 
David


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Siobhan 
RamseySent: 08 August 2005 10:39To: 
backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: RE: [backstage] Where are the 
examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?


Hi 
Ted,
 
I would be interested 
in this for educational use and to learn more about IRIS and to see it if it 
could link into a project we are working on for schools in the 
UK.
Siobhan 
Ramsey
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Ted GilchristSent: 08 August 2005 21:55To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: Re: [backstage] Where are the 
examples that re-purpose bbc content that isn't text?
 
Hi,   I guess this would 
qualify as an aurally repurposed backstage project:http://feeds.feedburner.com/bbcworldRebotcastTed 
Gilchrist

On 8/8/05, David Tattersall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
I have create some software that takes the images from 
BBC news stories andprovided a searchable database. However I had difficulty 
getting it liveonto the web (problem with accessing a remote IP from my 
host). This is supposedly sorted now, however since then I've moved onto 
pastures anew. Ifthere is sufficient demand then I'd happily upload Iris (as 
it's called) forpeople to play around 
with.David-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd Sent: 08 August 2005 6:34To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: 
[backstage] Where are the examples that re-purpose bbc content thatisn't 
text?Where are the graphical or aurally re-purposed 'backstage' 
projects? I'm having great difficulty accessing any examples of ideas or 
prototypesthat re-purpose bbc content that isn't text.About 10% of 
the population is functionally illiterate.Many people prefer graphics to 
text, and most of us, who are visually able, for instance use and understand 
the 'home button'.text news feeds are excellent for those that don't 
have access to graphics,but a newspaper without images doesn't seem to be 
popular at the presenttime. cheersJonathan 
Chetwynddesign consultantaccessibility for people with learning 
difficultiesrecent reference: http://www.bsi-global.com/accessibility 
-Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion 
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Date: 07/08/05 -Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion 
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RE: [backstage] News Images

[Ben Metcalfe]

Title: Message



There have been a 
number of posts recently about using photos that appear on the BBC News website, 
including the one below.
 
I 
can completely understand why bringing images from news stories into your 
prototypes is a compelling idea.  Unfortunately it's not something the BBC 
is able to make available on backstage nor can it condone screen scraping of 
images from the news site.
 
However rather than 
being all stern and simply telling you "Hey, don't do that", I'd like to explain 
to you the reasoning behind all of this.  My hope is that, armed with 
this information, you guys will choose not to use images because you can 
empathise with our position rather than because 'we told you not 
to'!
 
 
The first point to 
make is that in almost all cases the BBC does not own the photos we make 
available on the BBC News site.  I think it's fair to say that in a lot of 
cases many people think we do own the photos, and therefore off the back 
of backstage put 2 and 2 together and assume that the pictures are 
fair game and part of "Open BBC".  Unfortunately that's simply not the 
case.
 
Many would agree 
that it would simply not be a sensible use of licence payers money to have 
hundreds of photographers working for us roving the country, and indeed the 
world, ready to take photographs.
 
So like practically 
all other news providers we licence the use photos from the photographic 
agencies for use on the website.  These providers include AP, Reuters - 
although there are many others we use too.  They have a constant churn of 
photos coming in from their photographers and "paparazzi".  If you want to 
see what such a feed looks like, check out the live Yahoo! news picture 
galleries: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/526/ which 
is fairly representative of what's current on the "picture 
wires".
 
BBC licences the 
right to reproduce these pictures on the BBC website - and only the BBC 
website.  It does not have the right to redistribute them to third parties, 
such as including them in RSS feeds.  This is why we are unable to make the 
photos available to you on backstage at this time.
 
Negotiating 
redistribution rights would no doubt be very expensive and and it's questionable 
whether the agencies would even agree to it.  Their business model is that 
they distribute the photos to news providers and other interested parties.  
Having redistribution rights ourselves would turn that model on it's 
head.
 
 
As you will know, 
I'm a big champion for "open media" both in the BBC and outside the BBC.  
But one of the responsibilities of being involved with such a concept 
is to respect copyright when copyright exists.  And by being involved in 
backstage, you should all also feel valued members and pioneers of the open 
media community.
 
You may not agree 
with a given licence restriction, or feel that it is stifling your creativity, 
but it's simply not right to ignore the licences asset owners place upon their 
work - regardless of the type of content and the type of licence being 
used.
 
If you want to 
convince somebody that they should think differently, it is far more powerful to 
demonstrate the value they are missing by using existing Open/Creative 
Commons/similar work rather than ripping off their content and hoping they will 
like it.  The chances are they won't, and invariably may undermine both 
your work and in their eyes the open media concept in 
general.
 
Closer to home, serious licence infringements in your 
prototypes could undermine the work we are trying to do at the BBC with 
backstage.bbc.co.uk, and our other Open BBC projects.
 
In addition to 
being an advocate for the BBC externally to you guys, internally I'm an advocate 
for the work you are all doing and your aspirations generally.  I use the 
above method to show content stakeholders around the BBC real examples of where 
you are adding new value to BBC content by remixing other providers content 
into your prototypes - in an effort to demonstrate the benefits to the BBC 
in releasing our equivalent content on backstage.  The more you build and 
demonstrate value, the more content feeds and apis I can get released to 
you.  The same concept should work on a larger scale, when dealing 
with rights holders outside the BBC.  But it all needs to happen in a 
positive and respectful way if it is going to work!
 
This is a very long 
process which we're just at the beginning off, but as someone once said: even 
the longest journey begins with a single step.
 
 
I know this has 
been a long email, so thanks for reading.
 
 
Ben
 
 
 
 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of David TattersallSent: 11 August 2005 
  17:05To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: RE: 
  [backstage] News Images
  I just open the low graphics version and grab any URLs 
  from there - I can then store the URLs and appropriate keywords. The images 
  are then displayed as search results.

Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Tim Scollick]

>  Well i am web technology journalist

Oh!  Now it's all starting to make sense.  

> This does conflict with DRM quite heavily in that its impossible to hide
> your data sources . 

I didn't say anything about DRM.  You're right.  It can always be
hacked.  Advertisers like to *give* video and audio away because it
makes you buy their products.

> AJAX is more than just HTML and Javascript , its whole different design
> pattern .

No, it's not. AJAX stands for "Asynchronous JavaScript + XML for web
development".  That sounds like (x)html and javascript to me.  It's
definitely not a design pattern.  Factory, Decorator and Model View
Controller are design patterns
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29). 
AJAX is a collection of technologies that someone gave a fancy acronym
to.

> You should try it , its great fun .

I did try it and I like it, for certain things.  In fact, I really
like it for data.  Although, when I tried it the first time it was
called XMLHttpRequest.  That was years before someone gave it a fancy
name; way below the radar of the "media".

> sounds like quite a grim future to me , i'd prefer a more positive one
> where developers and system designers realise their responsibily in
> shaping the internet around open standards , just like the people before
> them did. The internet without standards would be horrific .

Find me an audio and video format that more than 90% of the people can
see and I'll use it.  Until then, Flash is my only choice.  I've used
SVG and it's fabulous, if you control the environment it's rolled out
in and you can get everyone to download the (proprietary) Adobe
plug-in.  We were very successful rolling it out in a corporate
environment.  It's a wonderful technology but the plug-in is not
anywhere close to being as ubiquitous as Flash.  Deerpark is are only
hope and it will still take years for the design tools to catch up. 
People like pretty interfaces.  That's a fact.

> 'a few shortcomings' is a very polite way of describing it , i prefer
> the phrase 'a complete lack of support' . 

Straw man. Read this: 
http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/faq.html

> There is definately a special
> section in hell for people that do those scrolling blocks of text in
> flash.

I agree.  However, we call those people "clients".

> Ok , so i'm obviously looking at this from the backend and you seem to
> be looking from the visual design perspective .

Wrong again.  Both Flash and AJAX are client side technologies.  You
are not talking about the back end at all.  If you were, you would use
words like oracle, sql, servlets, etc.

Sorry if you trolled by this, but I can't stand this type of
ignorance.  Like SVG and AJAX, Flash is great for certain things and
bad for others.  But I can't stand the blanket statements that "all
Flash is bad".  Sorry for the rant.

On 8/10/05, Amias Channer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:44:01 -0400
> Tim Scollick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I think that your non-Flash rant is biased and uninformed.
> 
> Well i am web technology journalist so i suppose thats my mission ;-)
> 
> > Why is it always Flash vs. HTML?  Flash can supplement HTML and vice
> > versa.  They are good at different things.
> 
> Because thats how the decision is made in my experience :
> 
> client:   we want to do this with our site , can we do it and what are the 
> options ?
> me:  Yes , probably , that looks like a either an AJAX or Flash job 
> because of .
> 
> I know that is technically possible to share a datasource between a flash 
> interface
> and an HTML one . The problem is that it is rare that people put the effort 
> into developing
> alternative methods to display that data that they do into the flash site. 
> Especially given
> the expense of developing flash applications.
> 
> > The Medium is the Message.
> The medium is the medium , the message is the content .
> For me good web design is about making the right choice where to seperate 
> content
> from delivery and presentation . Flash has never been good at that .
> 
> > > What gets me is that it doesn't degrade , at all . you don't have
> > > the plugin or even the latest version of the plugin you don't get
> > > the site .
> >
> > That's what JavaScript detection is for.
> 
> Thats not gracefull degredation , thats making 2 websites.
> 
> > >Ever tried navigating a flash site with speech reader , braille pad ,
> > >set-top-box browser , text mode only or mobile phone ?
> >
> > This area admittedly has a few shortcomings, but Flash has support for
> > Section 508, plug-ins for set top boxes and mobile phones.  If you're
> > doing text heavy sites in Flash, you've got bigger problems.
> 
> 'a few shortcomings' is a very polite way of describing it , i prefer
> the phrase 'a complete lack of support' . There is definately a special
> section in hell for people that do those scrolling blocks of text in
> flash.
> 
> > F

Re: [backstage] Google News launch RSS and Atom service

[Stephen Tomlinson]

They're not republishing the news, they're linking to it. Much as I
could make a "stephen's favourite news stories" page each day.

On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 17:43 +0100, Amias Channer wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:50:51 +0100
> Tony Hirst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Out of interest - how *do* google get away with republishing other
> > providers news?
> 
> With great wads of cash paid to licence them i suspect , google have
> a lot of funds at their disposal which can make certain options 
> available to them that aren't to others. 
> 
> And a now for a not entirely unrelated twist :
> 
> It would be useful if a clear method to go from 'prototypes' to production
> code using BBC data where available . When i last asked this question i was
> asked to email someone for a quote . This is not unacceptable but it is
> slightly cumbersome and prevents quite a few coders from using bbc stuff.
> 
> If there where a clear path between the backstage content and the commercial
> content then more commercial developers would be involved in the backstage 
> process.
> This would produce more prototypes of a more reusable nature 
> 
> Maybe i am misunderstanding the purpose of these open feeds but there where
> more signups to commercial use of BBC data as a result then surely this would
> be even more of a win for everyone ?
> 
> Toodle-pip
> Amias
> 
> P.S i am more than happy with what bbc backstage have offered so far and am 
> very
> pleased that at last my taxes are going toward something i actually approve 
> of ;-)
> 
> -
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> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
> Unofficial list archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/

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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Matthew Somerville]

Brit wrote:

We "do" VW - www.newgolfgti.co.uk being the latest.

Try doing that in HTML.


I don't have a problem with Flash if used appropriately [1], but I do have a 
problem with my Flash-disabled browser being redirected to the 
experienceFlashYes.html page (which is then a plain black page, not even a 
message about needing Flash or anything), and the experienceFlashNo.html 
page (visited out of curiosity) returning a 404...


Plus I wouldn't /want/ to do that in HTML. if I wanted to know about the new 
Golf GTi, I'd rather just have a site giving me the information on its 
power, handling, drive, and looks, rather than having to wait for ages (and 
I have broadband!) watching a pointless animation before being able to read 
one tiny bit of the info. Maybe that's just me.


ATB,
Matthew

[1] Defined as homestarrunner.com
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Re: [backstage] 3D?

[Graeme Mulvaney]

or alternatively  http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/ <--- although most of it would be a piece of pie to do in dHTML ;)
On 8/12/05, Matthew Somerville <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ATB,Matthew[1] Defined as homestarrunner.com-

Re: [backstage] Google News launch RSS and Atom service

[Matthew Hurst]

As far as I know (from trolling around WWW conference this year at which 
google/google news had a reasonable presence) google is not licensing
news material at all. Part of the reason that google news is in permanent beta
is because of this issue. They get away with it beacuase, as someone above
noted, they are goolge. Their use is against TOS, but as they drive
traffic, noone cares.

MattH
http://datamining.typepad.com

On 8/11/05, Stephen Tomlinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> They're not republishing the news, they're linking to it. Much as I
> could make a "stephen's favourite news stories" page each day.
> 
> On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 17:43 +0100, Amias Channer wrote:
> > On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:50:51 +0100
> > Tony Hirst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Out of interest - how *do* google get away with republishing other
> > > providers news?
> >
> > With great wads of cash paid to licence them i suspect , google have
> > a lot of funds at their disposal which can make certain options
> > available to them that aren't to others.
> >
> > And a now for a not entirely unrelated twist :
> >
> > It would be useful if a clear method to go from 'prototypes' to production
> > code using BBC data where available . When i last asked this question i was
> > asked to email someone for a quote . This is not unacceptable but it is
> > slightly cumbersome and prevents quite a few coders from using bbc stuff.
> >
> > If there where a clear path between the backstage content and the commercial
> > content then more commercial developers would be involved in the backstage 
> > process.
> > This would produce more prototypes of a more reusable nature
> >
> > Maybe i am misunderstanding the purpose of these open feeds but there where
> > more signups to commercial use of BBC data as a result then surely this 
> > would
> > be even more of a win for everyone ?
> >
> > Toodle-pip
> > Amias
> >
> > P.S i am more than happy with what bbc backstage have offered so far and am 
> > very
> > pleased that at last my taxes are going toward something i actually approve 
> > of ;-)
> >
> > -
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