[backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design'
Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] hackday: Scratch Very Good
hackday: Scratch Very Good for the more ambitious out there: how about collaborating on a children's hack authoring tool with SVG? Scratch or Squeak with Hacks chears Jonathan Chetwynd http://scratch.mit.edu/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design'
At 08:48 +0100 15/5/07, ~:'' ÇÝÇËÇÇǧǾǥǢÇÐǵÇÅB wrote: Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk |Hype about Web 2.0 is making web firms neglect the basics of good design, web usability guru Jakob Nielsen has said. Good. Can we move on? Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] The Proms
Not really on topic but almost... We're planning to release a dump of our historical Proms data (?1936?-2007) here under the usual creative commons licence soon(ish). It's currently off being re-keyed but as soon as that's done we'll make it available. Make of it what you will... Other data sets will also be made available shortly. ps the music ontology group (http://musicontology.com/) have expressed an interest in using this data to test their ontology spec. If you're at all interested in rdf, music, musicbrainz etc, that's probably a good place to look -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cridland Sent: Mon 5/14/2007 10:15 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] The Proms On 5/9/07, Sam Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since the bbc don't provide an ical feed of the proms Odd. They do, though, provide some quite nifty SMS reminders (at least, they did last year). Your iCal feeds don't import correctly into Google Calendar - though I notice that someone has created a BBC Radio 3 schedule public calendar (just search for 'BBC Proms' in the public calendars). It would strike me that a pan-BBC tell me when this is on iCal feed would be a very useful thing: perhaps configurable like... ...schedule.ics?programme=bbc+promschannel=bbcr3 ...schedule.ics?keywords=royal+albert+hall Those of you with iPods can even pull in these feeds directly into your iPod, too. Nice. -- http://james.cridland.net/ (My own views, not those of employers) winmail.dat
RE: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design'
This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Uhhh, del.icio.us ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 12:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
You Jacob talk as if the two (good design/accessiblity web 2.0) are mutually exclusive. There is nothing stopping a Web 2.0 site being well designed or accessible, as I showed before they are actually *more* likely to be. I notice that you've added the word accessible. Jacob doesn't mention it. Flickr and Twitter are well built (and argueably accessible), and there is always the mobile versions to get to the content... http://m.flickr.com http://m.twitter.com Most of these sites (if well built) will work perfectly/almost perfectly with javascript and/or CSS turned off as well, which solves the live region, notification, and some navigation issues. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 12:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
I forgot to mention. A web 2.0 site is also more likely to have an API, allowing programmatic to the content and the ability to create a fully accessible interfaces to various disadvantaged user's needs. J -Original Message- From: Jason Cartwright Sent: 15 May 2007 13:40 To: 'backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk' Subject: RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' You Jacob talk as if the two (good design/accessiblity web 2.0) are mutually exclusive. There is nothing stopping a Web 2.0 site being well designed or accessible, as I showed before they are actually *more* likely to be. I notice that you've added the word accessible. Jacob doesn't mention it. Flickr and Twitter are well built (and argueably accessible), and there is always the mobile versions to get to the content... http://m.flickr.com http://m.twitter.com Most of these sites (if well built) will work perfectly/almost perfectly with javascript and/or CSS turned off as well, which solves the live region, notification, and some navigation issues. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 12:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Richard, how does one use http://maps.google.com/ via the keyboard? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 13:22, Richard Lockwood wrote: This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co- developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Disable javascript. Everything works fine. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 16:47 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Richard, how does one use http://maps.google.com/ via the keyboard? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 13:22, Richard Lockwood wrote: This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co- developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Well you can scroll around with the arrow keys and zoom in and out with + and -. Not sure how you change to satellite using keys, but I'm sure its in there. ~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote: Richard, how does one use http://maps.google.com/ via the keyboard? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 13:22, Richard Lockwood wrote: This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Odeo.com is a classic example of a Web2 site which looks very nice but unfortunately suffers from a REAL lack of usability. I actually used the site to add a new entry to my podcast on there, and then ranted about how hard it was to do so (and half of their in-page embedded players STILL don't work for ANY podcast on there, it's just mad!) Might do another rant too, and email them the link to listen to it... Fortunately though odeo is among the minority (even odder considering the same people are behind twitter, and that's such an easy site to use!) Sites like Newsvine and Flickr really get my vote for being great Web2 standard-bearers, I don't use Flickr that much (I'd rather keep my pictures on my own site, and I don't use it enough to bother with Pro status) but for the most part I've not had any problem using Web2 sites. The whole nature of them being dynamic and not having to wait for clicks to load entirely new pages adds to the experience for me. Nielsen loves going off on one. I've often thought he should practice what he preaches and spruce up his site a little bit, it's always reeked of 1996. -Original Message- From: Stephen Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 May 2007 17:10 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Well you can scroll around with the arrow keys and zoom in and out with + and -. Not sure how you change to satellite using keys, but I'm sure its in there. ~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote: Richard, how does one use http://maps.google.com/ via the keyboard? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 13:22, Richard Lockwood wrote: This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co-developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ~: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/
RE: [backstage] BBC News 24 now streaming live - to your PDA
We're on the same wavelength... I've actually compiled all the BBC links I use onto a site formatted for my Vario 2 (or any =QVGA mobile device) - http://3g.totallyowns.co.uk It's uber-simple at the moment, I'll probably make it look a bit nicer and probably more dynamic (to make it easier to edit) and there's not much else on there at the moment aside from the Beeb and CNN Pipeline streams because that's all I watch and listen to! Hopefully others'll find it useful. All the links are just regular WMV/WMA links (with some of the alternative RP links too) and they'll work on any WMP-supported device afaik. _ From: Brian Butterworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 May 2007 01:34 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC News 24 now streaming live - to your PDA Right... a bit of PDA fiddling and I now have News 24 on both my iPaq PDA (wireless) and my Lobster 700TV phone (USB) - both Windows Mobile 5... If you have a Windows PDA, open Internet Explorer and go to http://ukfree.tv/24.htm and click the link... Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv http://www.ukfree.tv/ _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 15 May 2007 00:09 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC News 24 now streaming live! Just one more thought... How about having a nice short URL to get the live streams up, something like: http://bbc.co.uk/live/news24 would be much more 'viral' than: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_661/newsid_66 15400?redirect=6615433.stm http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_661/newsid_6 615400?redirect=6615433.stmnews=1nbram=1bbram=1nbwm=1bbwm=1 news=1nbram=1bbram=1nbwm=1bbwm=1 if you see what I mean... I would be short enough to pop in a signature, and not fail for people with email systems that can't cope with multiline URLs. All you need a folder called 'live' with a few redirect scripts... easy. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv http://www.ukfree.tv/ _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 14 May 2007 21:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC News 24 now streaming live! There was a BBC press release to the effect that it's permanent. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/05_may/08/news24 .shtml Now all I need is a Vista sidebar News 24 gadget... Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv http://www.ukfree.tv/ _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Woods Sent: 10 May 2007 02:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] BBC News 24 now streaming live! I just noticed whilst reading an article on the BBC News site that there was a link to watch BBC News 24 live - I clicked and it's streaming now! Does anybody know if this is a permanent addition to the bouquet of online services from the Beeb, or just a temporary thing due to some breaking news in the recent past which I happened to miss? No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.6/794 - Release Date: 08/05/2007 14:23 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 12/05/2007 18:40 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 12/05/2007 18:40 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 12/05/2007 18:40 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 12/05/2007 18:40 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 12/05/2007 18:40
[backstage] iPlayer invite emails
Just checked through my backlog of emails and I noticed (with glee) that I had one inviting me to apply for the iPlayer public trial... Sweet! So, I filled it in sharpish and fired it off (and I hope it filled it all out correctly, the more I think about it the more I'm not sure whether I chose Yes for 'are you over 16' haha).. Just wondering if anybody on here knows what the average turnaround time'll be for confirmation and activation emails if I do get accepted onto the trial? Ok, relatively stupid question now, but I'm curious: I noticed my trial ID's ridiculously large (77,802,xxx) - surely it can't have started at 1 and gone up sequentially for each tester, right? Last time I counted (yes, I did the last census on my own, it took a while) there was only circa 60m residents in the UK? :D
Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Jason Stephen, when javascript is disabled in Opera or Camino the message is: Your web browser is not fully supported by Google Maps I wonder is the code IE7 specific? none of the keys work for me on os x unless I'm missing something this hardly qualifies as accessible... regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 16:57, Jason Cartwright wrote: Disable javascript. Everything works fine. J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 16:47 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' Richard, how does one use http://maps.google.com/ via the keyboard? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 13:22, Richard Lockwood wrote: This particular rant seems to be about useability rather than accessibility (although I appreciate the two are often closely related). Much as I often loathe Nielsen's writing - Jason's right, it's often all about Nielsen more than it is about any actual problems - in this case he's got a point. Web 2.0 sites are often completely unuseable - MySpace being a prime example, and Flickr (although it's been a while since I tried to use it to post a few pics and it may well have improved) another. Google Maps however, I'd hold up as a prime example of excellent intuitive design and useability. Just as the phrase Web 2.0 means different things to all people (I avoid it if at all possible as I feel it just makes the user sound like a buzzword spouting bandwagon-jumper who hasn't a clue what he's actually saying ;-) ), you can't tar all Web 2.0 sites with the same brush. Anyway, I've banged on far too long now, and this is what Nielsen wants - people to discuss HIM HIM HIM!!! Frankly, the less I hear of and from this tedious old bore, the happier I am. Cheers, Rich. On 5/15/07, ~:'' ありがとうございました。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason Gordon any good Accessible Web 2.0 websites you'd care to plug? or are you in a rush? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 May 2007, at 10:18, Jason Cartwright wrote: This is all my personal opinion, and I entirely disagree. Mr Nielsen has a history of spouting contrary opinions to court controversy and gain publicity for himself and his company. Web 2.0[1] (for me at least) incorporates best practice methodologies of developing to standards (and the consequences of this, such as progressive enhancement etc) and trusting users as co- developers [2]. These core principals of Web 2.0 encourage good design. As with any technology, Web 2.0 will be misused - it's not the technology's fault that this happens, it's the designer/developer that fouled it up's problem. That doesn't look as good when you're goading mainstream journos into writing about you though, does it? J [1] I've stuck all these in quotes, as I think Web 2.0 means different things to different people. [2] Tim O'Reilly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ‾:'' Sent: 15 May 2007 08:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' Jakob Nielsen: Web 2.0 'neglecting good design' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm seems to have copied my pitch for hackday ‾: has he been invited? was I? did anyone else have ideas or requirements for an accessible SVG front end? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet http://www.eas-i.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit
RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design'
Keeping the Flickr train of thought for a second, have you seen ipernity.com recently? -Original Message- From: Gordon Joly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 May 2007 23:22 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] Web 2.0 'neglecting good Accessible design' At 21:03 +0100 15/5/07, Christopher Woods wrote: Odeo.com is a classic example of a Web2 site which looks very nice but unfortunately suffers from a REAL lack of usability. I actually used the site to add a new entry to my podcast on there, and then ranted about how hard it was to do so (and half of their in-page embedded players STILL don't work for ANY podcast on there, it's just mad!) Might do another rant too, and email them the link to listen to it... Fortunately though odeo is among the minority (even odder considering the same people are behind twitter, and that's such an easy site to use!) Sites like Newsvine and Flickr really get my vote for being great Web2 standard-bearers, I don't use Flickr that much (I'd rather keep my pictures on my own site, and I don't use it enough to bother with Pro status) but for the most part I've not had any problem using Web2 sites. The whole nature of them being dynamic and not having to wait for clicks to load entirely new pages adds to the experience for me. Nielsen loves going off on one. I've often thought he should practice what he preaches and spruce up his site a little bit, it's always reeked of 1996. My take is that FLICKR is a social software site with pcitures, whereas Webshots (for example) is about photo albums. Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
