RE: [backstage] more data visualisation links
Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 14 August 2007 18:12 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links
On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 14 August 2007 18:12 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
I need to make a confession it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDe signProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
RE: [backstage] more data visualisation links
That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. if I'd taken up either position, I would explain it, I'm not going to do it just because you ask. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. I don't have any truths. Except the truth that I can't spend time discussing on this list something that's off-topic and that would be quicker done face-to-face. That's all the pint reference was about. Not some Blake-style path to enlightenment by excess. Over and out. I'm done here. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 15 August 2007 10:10 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 14 August 2007 18:12 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/ discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html .
Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links
Wouldn¹t the world be a boring place if everything was reduced to a result of some user testing? At some design conference I went to I saw (can¹t remember which one) a designery chap described the joy he had going to a book shop and buying a book that was wrapped in brown paper and string. The fun and satisfaction he had unwrapping this parcel was far greater than the ripping open of some bland and highly practical Amazon container. Jacob has his place (and I¹ll probably always read his stuff), but lets not devalue any artistry used here. A design/visualisation/dataset/webapp/whatever could be the most usable in the world, but I know I won¹t be interested in playing with it (and perhaps giving them money) if its not fun. Boiling this down to a practical example Flickr is the best thing I can think of. Adding tags and categorising my photos isn¹t the most enthralling task in the world, but Flickr makes it light-hearted (e.g. ³Now you know how to greet people in Arabic!²) and entertaining. They make more money by doing this. J On 15/8/07 10:09, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 14 August 2007 18:12 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/ discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links
On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. if I'd taken up either position, I would explain it, I'm not going to do it just because you ask. Great. I take it you withdraw your earlier position about Jakob Nielsen? Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. I don't have any truths. Except the truth that I can't spend time discussing on this list something that's off-topic and that would be quicker done face-to-face. That's all the pint reference was about. Not some Blake-style path to enlightenment by excess. It's hardly off-topic. Check out the backstage.bbc.co.uk stated purpose. Over and out. I'm done here. Yeah, it shows. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 15 August 2007 10:10 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 14 August 2007 18:12 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv -- Please email me back if
Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links
On 15/08/07, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wouldn't the world be a boring place if everything was reduced to a result of some user testing? Probably. But if you want something to work for users it seems unavoidable. If you don't do it at the alpha or beta stage, then you're transferring the whole of the risk to a hunch that will only be vindicated once the product is live. At some design conference I went to I saw (can't remember which one) a designery chap described the joy he had going to a book shop and buying a book that was wrapped in brown paper and string. The fun and satisfaction he had unwrapping this parcel was far greater than the ripping open of some bland and highly practical Amazon container. That's not really design though.. more a Luddite view! Jacob has his place (and I'll probably always read his stuff), but lets not devalue any artistry used here. A design/visualisation/dataset/webapp/whatever could be the most usable in the world, but I know I won't be interested in playing with it (and perhaps giving them money) if its not fun. Fun is fine, I have no problem with that. However it is always more economic to have something that is boring-but-used than fun-but-unused? Boiling this down to a practical example – Flickr is the best thing I can think of. Adding tags and categorising my photos isn't the most enthralling task in the world, but Flickr makes it light-hearted (e.g. Now you know how to greet people in Arabic!) and entertaining. They make more money by doing this. But that wouldn't fail usability testing would it? If it makes it more usable then that's fine and will be declared OK by testing. It's simply arrogant to think that because one understands something it is obvious to everyone else. J On 15/8/07 10:09, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, *Simon Cobb* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 14 August 2007 18:12 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, *Kim Plowright* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some
Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links
Enough on this now please chaps let¹s keep this nice. m On 15/8/07 11:32, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. if I'd taken up either position, I would explain it, I'm not going to do it just because you ask. Great. I take it you withdraw your earlier position about Jakob Nielsen? Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. I don't have any truths. Except the truth that I can't spend time discussing on this list something that's off-topic and that would be quicker done face-to-face. That's all the pint reference was about. Not some Blake-style path to enlightenment by excess. It's hardly off-topic. Check out the backstage.bbc.co.uk http://backstage.bbc.co.uk stated purpose. Over and out. I'm done here. Yeah, it shows. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 15 August 2007 10:10 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links On 15/08/07, Simon Cobb [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim said: Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. I'd argue that useful and playful can be part of the same thing. Certainly nothing ever stuck with me that I didn't enjoy using/ thinking about. Likewise many of the children I used to teach. The trick is to combine the 2. I think there's ways from that set of visualisations to encourage people to make playful and useful interfaces to bbc data/ apps if the API's were available. As I was trying to say, a system that allows the end-user to construct live visualizations of data is a commendable idea, but (almost) by definition this will be impossible for others to use. For example, many people will use red to indicate an error state and green to indicate a OK condition. But you can't use that for everyone as 10% of men are red-green colourblind. If you do some research you will also find out that some people are visually-orientated and respond well to these kinds of representations. But others prefer speech over visual explanations and this kind of thing will exclude those people. Brian said: I presume you have some substantive evidence that no testing is require then? That's not what I said, it's just that I'm not personally convinced that his views are as up-to-date as they should be and so cannot perpetuate his status as an untouchable usability expert. But that's best discussed over a pint at some unspecified future backstage event rather than this list. That's a total cop-out, either you can explain why no usability testing is required or not. Personally I don't drink so I can't see why I would never discover the great truth that has been revealed to your good self. Simply being rude about someone is a failure to explain - just an insult rather than a debunking. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 14 August 2007 18:12 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] more data visualisation links I guess this brings us right back to Richard MacDuff's Anthem programme which attempted much the same but with music in the first Dirk Gently book (coming soon to Radio 4)... On 14/08/07, Kim Plowright [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point here is 'does the visualisation of the data adds meaning, or is just pretty to look at?'. Does your visualisation tell people more about the data set than the raw numbers? Is it 'legible'? Does it expose trends and meaning that would otherwise be hidden to all but the most numerate? Does it let someone reach sound conclusions faster, or navigate quicker, or become more accurate? Which is Tufte territory, not Nielsen. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/ Not that there's anything wrong with pretty, but good datavis is about adding layers of meaning, as well as the layers of aesthetics. Its possible to remove the 'data' during the visualisation process and turn it in to a purely aesthetic entertainment experience, too. Some of the Jonathan Harris stuff does this - it's information as spectacle. Fun to look at, not 'wrong' per se, but a terrible way of actually turning data - information - knowledge. Useful or Playful? Is the question to ask. Some of these seem to be of dubious real use. Has anyone put any of them though Jakob Nielsen-style user testing? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/ discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive:
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession - it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip - it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview - this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDesignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959)
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. Would you care to give us a slightly more reasoned critique, Richard? despite Cory's apparent predeliction for Soviet-Union-based metaphors (check out his other DRM article for the Guardian), i thought he made his argument very well. Cheers, Tim
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. R. On 8/15/07, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession – it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip – it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown's interview – this was not intentional! I've now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDesignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/ http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
And there’s more... http://clesh.com/videos/view/BBCsdemo-118711.can/ From Stephen Streater who was filming at the event... m On 15/8/07 13:20, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDes ignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (0283959) M: 07711 913241 (072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Certainly. From my occasional online journal... He's arguing that the BBC's use of DRM in its new iPlayer service will legitimise the spread of DRM - at least I think that's what he's thinks he's arguing. Actually, it's a reason-free rant against DRM from the Everything should be free and fluffy - we're great, big business evil, woo - MEMEME! I WANT it for nothing NOW! brigade. Mr Doctorow conveniently ignores the fact that the programme rights owners collectively insisted that the BBC implemented DRM in iPlayer, ignores the fact that the iPlayer doesn't actually stop you using the VCR that you've relied on for years to record programmes you want to keep, describes the iPlayer service as 'Ostensibly... a seven-day catch-up service' - implying that it's actually something different - but then doesn't tell us what he thinks it is, and claims (with no evidence or justification) that the BBC will be to blame if all video in future comes with DRM. The iPlayer isn't perfect, it's still in Beta, and yes, it *is* a seven day catch-up service, as is 4OD. I missed the Dawkins programme on Monday night and really wanted to see it - but had no desire to keep it for posterity. So I downloaded it from Channel 4 in about an hour (it would have taken *hours* if I'd got a Bit Torrent version) and watched it over lunch. Job done. The fact that iPlayer doesn't work on (Doctorow's figure) 25% of computer users' computers is irrelevent. You can't use it at all if you haven't got a computer, it won't run on your fridge - and as pointed out earlier, it's in Public Beta. It's planned to release versions for other OSs ASAP. It's not the great evil a lot of people have suggested - it's a flawed, but in Beta, additional way of watching time shifted TV which can be used by the vast majority of computer-using license payers - and that percentage will quickly increase . It doesn't pretend to replace anything - you can still watch and record DRM free programmes from the BBC. Cheers, Rich. On 8/15/07, Tim Cowlishaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. Would you care to give us a slightly more reasoned critique, Richard? despite Cory's apparent predeliction for Soviet-Union-based metaphors (check out his other DRM article for the Guardian), i thought he made his argument very well. Cheers, Tim -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Well for me iPlayer will legitimise BitTorrent, as soon as it's out of Beta, I will feel no moral obligation not to download the latest Dr Who, or whatever (I do currently; I've never torrented a TV programme). After all, the BBC will then be giving content away free on demand, I'll just get it in a different, non-crippled way. If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it?
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
Whereas, looking at the photos indicates that 20 is an exaggeration of about 100%. Cheers, R. On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More likely, Organisers put the turnout at 800... R. On 8/15/07, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presumably on the news we'll get the traditional 10+% rule of Organisers put the turnout at 20 people, whilst The Metropolitan Police said 2-and-a-half-people turned up? cheers, martin On 14/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14/08/07, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Forrester wrote: Yep we were there along with about another 20 people. So were they making a point or trying to make a difference? I believe the additional media coverage of the unconscionable restrictions in the iPlayer will make a difference. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
A view from America. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TheSecretDiaryOfSteveJobs/~3/144065882/freeta rds-attack-bbc-but-get-beaten-off.html Paul Daniel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Lockwood Sent: 15 August 2007 16:37 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City More likely, Organisers put the turnout at 800... R. On 8/15/07, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presumably on the news we'll get the traditional 10+% rule of Organisers put the turnout at 20 people, whilst The Metropolitan Police said 2-and-a-half-people turned up? cheers, martin On 14/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14/08/07, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Forrester wrote: Yep we were there along with about another 20 people. So were they making a point or trying to make a difference? I believe the additional media coverage of the unconscionable restrictions in the iPlayer will make a difference. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 14/08/2007 17:19 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 14/08/2007 17:19 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
Well. When I was interviewing at about 10:45 there were 12 people there (that's when I took the photos) Ian then came down when I left and he came back and said there were about 20 people there after others joined. m On 15/8/07 16:54, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whereas, looking at the photos indicates that 20 is an exaggeration of about 100%. Cheers, R. On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More likely, Organisers put the turnout at 800... R. On 8/15/07, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presumably on the news we'll get the traditional 10+% rule of Organisers put the turnout at 20 people, whilst The Metropolitan Police said 2-and-a-half-people turned up? cheers, martin On 14/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14/08/07, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Forrester wrote: Yep we were there along with about another 20 people. So were they making a point or trying to make a difference? I believe the additional media coverage of the unconscionable restrictions in the iPlayer will make a difference. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? No, that would be stealing, I would be depriving the original owners of a can of drink, What I would do isn't stealing, no one loses anything, or are you one of those people who wilfully spreads the misconception that copyright infringement = theft? If you are, well it doesn't. One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. Vijay.
[backstage] INFAX catalogue edits (was: Re: From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest)
vijay chopra wrote: On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. I said this last time, but: bloody hell, let's not start this again. We've been round in circles on this at least four times now and I'm sick of adding mail filters to delete the threads. Please. Can we talk about APIs, or data dumps, or mashups, or something like that, rather than rehashing the same old arguments that (as has been proven) won't change the minds of those disagree? On that subject: could there be any programmatic way of submitting corrections to the BBC's INFAX catalogue? Right now, the only way is a feedback form that doesn't seem to be checked. I've got at least four entries in the catalogue, and I can see other people I know who have a similar amount; it's wonderful data, but there has to be a better way to submit known corrections (subject to approval, of course)... -- Tom - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BT denies pressurising the BBC over iPlayer
At 08:59 +0100 14/8/07, Brian Butterworth wrote: If these Internet Service Providers don't want to provide Internet access that makes them another Great British oxymoron, surely? And they don't seem to want multicast either? Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
It seems you made it to the slashdot frontpage! http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/15/1721229 Vijay On 15/08/07, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well. When I was interviewing at about 10:45 there were 12 people there (that's when I took the photos) Ian then came down when I left and he came back and said there were about 20 people there after others joined. m On 15/8/07 16:54, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whereas, looking at the photos indicates that 20 is an exaggeration of about 100%. Cheers, R. On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More likely, Organisers put the turnout at 800... R. On 8/15/07, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presumably on the news we'll get the traditional 10+% rule of Organisers put the turnout at 20 people, whilst The Metropolitan Police said 2-and-a-half-people turned up? cheers, martin On 14/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14/08/07, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Forrester wrote: Yep we were there along with about another 20 people. So were they making a point or trying to make a difference? I believe the additional media coverage of the unconscionable restrictions in the iPlayer will make a difference. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
Dear Dave, Who is Dan Lyons? What is a shill? Who is M...? Namaste Paul Daniel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave Crossland Sent: 15 August 2007 18:33 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City On 15/08/07, Paul Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A view from America. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TheSecretDiaryOfSteveJobs/~3/144065882/freeta rds-attack-bbc-but-get-beaten-off.html Dan Lyons is a well known Microsoft shill. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 14/08/2007 17:19 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 14/08/2007 17:19 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
Dan Lyons is a well known Microsoft shill. Who said outing him would spoil the Fake Steve Jobs fun? Although I do still like the fact that people put serious comments in reply to the posts, kind of like writing to one of the characters in Monkey Dust to set them straight about something :-) On 15/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, Paul Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A view from America. http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TheSecretDiaryOfSteveJobs/~3/144065882/freeta rds-attack-bbc-but-get-beaten-off.html Dan Lyons is a well known Microsoft shill. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
From /. An anonymous reader writes The future of iPlayer, the BBC's new online on-demand system for delivering content, is continuing to look bleaker. With ISPs threatening to throttle the content delivered through the iPlayer, consumers petitioning the UK government and the BBC to drop the DRM and Microsoft-only technology, and threatened legal action from the OSC, the last thing the BBC wanted to see today was street protests at their office and at the BBC Media Complex accompanied by a report issued by DefectiveByDesign about their association with Microsoft. Elsewhere in the news, more than 100,000 iPlayer sign-ups in a week ;-) /. is surely the Fox News of the tech world, no? m On 15/08/07, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems you made it to the slashdot frontpage! http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/15/1721229 Vijay On 15/08/07, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well. When I was interviewing at about 10:45 there were 12 people there (that's when I took the photos) Ian then came down when I left and he came back and said there were about 20 people there after others joined. m On 15/8/07 16:54, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whereas, looking at the photos indicates that 20 is an exaggeration of about 100%. Cheers, R. On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More likely, Organisers put the turnout at 800... R. On 8/15/07, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presumably on the news we'll get the traditional 10+% rule of Organisers put the turnout at 20 people, whilst The Metropolitan Police said 2-and-a-half-people turned up? cheers, martin On 14/08/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14/08/07, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Forrester wrote: Yep we were there along with about another 20 people. So were they making a point or trying to make a difference? I believe the additional media coverage of the unconscionable restrictions in the iPlayer will make a difference. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
On 15/08/07, Paul Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Dave, Who is Dan Lyons? A journalist for Forbes who has constantly attacked the software freedom movement. What is a shill? A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists and governments. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill Who is M...? Namaste But you already knew that. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
On 14/08/07, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The irony is that it probably doesn't matter now. They could now download it using their Windows XP machine in DRMed Windows Media Format. All thanks to our new overlord Bill, and his maniacal scheme to take over the BBC from the inside. Adobe currently has web video locked down; Apple, Real, Java, Xiph, and of course Microsoft are all in very niche use compared to Adobe Flash. Adobe Apollo is a direct competitor to Microsoft Silverlight, and with the inertia of Flash video and a large group of web designers already familiar with Flash, plus cheaper a licensing model than Microsoft, it looks like its in with a chance. The typical Microsoft response to fair competition is to compete unfairly. iPlayer, and a number of other high profile 2007 BBC projects, are based on Silverlight technology. Highfield's reponse on the Backstage blog points at the other proprietary technologies the BBC foists on the public, but these are based on previous technology decisions; the new stuff is all Silverlight based. 100,000 iPlayer sign-ups in a week, Martin? That's 100,000 more Silverlight installations. Given Microsoft's other major play to deploy Silverlight is Vista, and we all know how well that's working out for them this year, its outrageous to me that the BBC has paid Microsoft _anything_ for forcing license fee payers to install this key piece of strategic technology for them. Then UK is, afterall, one of the most broadband-saturated and media-consuming audiences, leading the way for other nations - Is the BBC likely to open up a non-zero-price iPlayer to international viewers at somepoint? So this is a big win for Microsoft's bid to control the next stage of web development with Silverlight. The BBC is committed to shipping a cross-platform iPlayer, and its a shame that this becomes the sole focus of the reporting on this issue. An iPlayer for 3 or 4 platforms is 3 or 4 times as worse as an XP-only iPlayer, because it is imposing DRM on even more people, and implying that DRM is acceptable. When it does ship a cross-platform iPlayer, I expect it will be based on Novell's Mono Moonlight for GNU/Linux, probably doing the media codec stuff with the GStreamer framework given that Fluendo, its sponsor, sells Windows Media Codecs already - https://shop.fluendo.com/product_info.php?products_id=45 - and the Mac OS X one might be Mono or Microsoft based. That's going to really help the widespread adoption of Silverlight as the Rich Internet Application platform of choice. In 2007, Google has maintained the dominant position for monetising search and advertising - of the text web. Their purchase of YouTube suggested they were serious about monetising the emerging video web, but the DRM aspects of Silverlight video delivery mean that their ability to provide search and advertising for web video is going to be undermined. So the BBC hasn't just helped Microsoft pull a Adobe-killer, it's also helping Microsoft pull a Google-killer. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City
At 19:44 +0100 15/8/07, Dave Crossland wrote: On 15/08/07, Paul Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Dave, Who is Dan Lyons? A journalist for Forbes who has constantly attacked the software freedom movement. What is a shill? A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists and governments. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill And from that Wikipedia link... This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality. I like that Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
When are we going to get another list? (was: RE: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City)
I think that description of a shill is fairly accurate myself (but then, I don't think I always fall under the WP NPOV guidelines! ;) Now then, all this discussion regarding MS, DRM, fair use, more DRM, Apple, Windows, more DRM etc... I find hugely interesting, and I even take part in discussions myself - unless other people beat me to making the point I was going to make myself. That said, I am beginning to agree more and more with those who are pointing out that this list is *not* the best venue for all this DRM- and quite specifically-related debate, and I think many of us will agree it's not the kind of off-topic discussion that the Backstage list was primarily brought into being to be a host to. Is there a way the Beeb could make another list just for discussion of these kind of topics, which can run in parallel alongside the main Backstage mailing list (which I've always thought is more for discussion of mashups, new and novel ways of using the BBC's offerings via APIs and feeds and the like)? I'd like to see a 'decluttering' of all this lengthy, and sometimes roundabout, discussion of DRM, iPlayer, interoperability, platform neutrality, but at the same time I'd appreciate the input from people actually working on these kind of projects at the BBC and beyond, but without all of this vigorous (and sometimes heated) debate sullying and diluting the main Backstage list. I know this has been raised in the past, but given this current round of discussions which is taking the list off-topic again, I feel it's more suitable for discussion. I'd definitely subscribe to (and participate in) both! Cheers Christopher -Original Message- From: Gordon Joly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 August 2007 21:17 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC iPlayer Protest tommorow, Tuesday 14th, 10:30AM, White City At 19:44 +0100 15/8/07, Dave Crossland wrote: On 15/08/07, Paul Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Dave, Who is Dan Lyons? A journalist for Forbes who has constantly attacked the software freedom movement. What is a shill? A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists and governments. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill And from that Wikipedia link... This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality. I like that Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
