Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
amen. Alan Davis wrote: > > > > >Message: 8 > > >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:51:32 +0100 > > > > > >El vie, 16-03-2007 a las 16:14 +0100, Marc Cuypers escribi?: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Has someone bacula working with a HP MSL2024 autochanger? > > >> > > > > > >Indeed. > > > > > > > /rant mode on/ > > > > Ladies and Gentleman, > > > > The mailing list is the primary customer support mechanism and one of > > the only expressions of "community" for the excellent "community > supported" > > product that is Bacula. > > > > I have seen too many responses on this list that, while they may > answer the > > question /exactly/ (although too many aren't even that helpful) they > > provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. > > > > Please keep in mind as you respond that users come to this list > looking for > > help with a complex system that they probably don't understand fully. > While > > sometimes the assurance that something is indeed possible is enough to > spur > > a user to more detailed tests and a re-reading of the manual quite often > > additional information from more experienced users is most helpful. > > > > It's not difficult, as experienced users, to anticipate the type of > > information that might be required to guide someone past the difficulties > > expressed in their posting to the list. > > > > The Bacula user's community is somewhat self-selected to be more > > "professional" than the general Linux user in that smaller installations > > don't need a backup system as capable as bacula. > > > > Please remember to treat our community members with respect and patience. > > > > The mailing list is the primary support channel available to all users > > at all experience levels. While a product's technical excellence is > important > > in choosing a solution for business needs, a FOSS product whose user > > community is treated well by their peers will enjoy greater success > than one > > who's users are left to support themselves completely. > > > > Vendors of proprietary products are quite often judged by users and in > the > > trade press on both quality of their products and quality of their > support. > > The same is true for FOSS products except that /we/ are the support > staff and > > the competition is just a download away. If a Bacula user can't get > their problem > > resolved quickly and easily with help from the mailing list they'll > quickly > > move on to another solution. They don't have the options that are > available > > to users of proprietary products - find another support vendor or use > > financial incentives with the vendor to improve response from them. > > > > /rant mode off/ > > > > > > Alan Davis > > Senior Architect > > Ruckus Network, Inc. > > 703.464.6578 (o) > > 410.365.7175 (m) > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > alancdavis AIM > > > > > > - > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > > > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users > - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 02:30:03PM -0500, C M Reinehr wrote: > On Friday 16 March 2007 14:17, Erich Prinz wrote: > > Alan, > > > > I've seen this too. Ryan's points are valid as well. > > > > A polite response of Read the Manual is sufficient. For those with ? > > **URGENT** requests, a polite pointer to paid support options would ? > > be appropriate as well. > > > > Now, deep down inside I'd really like rip and shred -- there are ? > > times when it's clear the poster has no respect for others and a 'why ? > > haven't you taken care of me?' pushy attitude that exudes from the ? > > posting. Those are best ignored in my opinion, but as a measure of ? > > grace a polite response isn't out of the question. > > > > Thanks for the post Alan. It likely hits home for just about every ? > > regular 'Baculite' on the list. > > > > Erich > > Sometimes I just can't help myself. Should it be 'Baculite' or 'Baculan'. > Maybe we should hold another poll. ;-) 'Baculan' has the potential for an embedded pun imo :) > cmr > > -- > Debian 'Etch' - Registered Linux User #241964 > > "More laws, less justice." -- Marcus Tullius Ciceroca, 42 BC > > - > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
On Friday 16 March 2007 14:17, Erich Prinz wrote: > Alan, > > I've seen this too. Ryan's points are valid as well. > > A polite response of Read the Manual is sufficient. For those with > **URGENT** requests, a polite pointer to paid support options would > be appropriate as well. > > Now, deep down inside I'd really like rip and shred -- there are > times when it's clear the poster has no respect for others and a 'why > haven't you taken care of me?' pushy attitude that exudes from the > posting. Those are best ignored in my opinion, but as a measure of > grace a polite response isn't out of the question. > > Thanks for the post Alan. It likely hits home for just about every > regular 'Baculite' on the list. > > Erich Sometimes I just can't help myself. Should it be 'Baculite' or 'Baculan'. Maybe we should hold another poll. ;-) cmr -- Debian 'Etch' - Registered Linux User #241964 "More laws, less justice." -- Marcus Tullius Ciceroca, 42 BC - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
Alan, I've seen this too. Ryan's points are valid as well. A polite response of Read the Manual is sufficient. For those with **URGENT** requests, a polite pointer to paid support options would be appropriate as well. Now, deep down inside I'd really like rip and shred -- there are times when it's clear the poster has no respect for others and a 'why haven't you taken care of me?' pushy attitude that exudes from the posting. Those are best ignored in my opinion, but as a measure of grace a polite response isn't out of the question. Thanks for the post Alan. It likely hits home for just about every regular 'Baculite' on the list. Erich On Mar 16, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Alan Davis wrote: > > > >Message: 8 > > >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:51:32 +0100 > > > > > >El vie, 16-03-2007 a las 16:14 +0100, Marc Cuypers escribi?: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Has someone bacula working with a HP MSL2024 autochanger? > > >> > > > > > >Indeed. > > > > > > > /rant mode on/ > > > > Ladies and Gentleman, > > > > The mailing list is the primary customer support mechanism and one of > > the only expressions of "community" for the excellent "community > supported" > > product that is Bacula. > > > > I have seen too many responses on this list that, while they may > answer the > > question /exactly/ (although too many aren't even that helpful) they > > provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. > > > > Please keep in mind as you respond that users come to this list > looking for > > help with a complex system that they probably don't understand > fully. While > > sometimes the assurance that something is indeed possible is enough > to spur > > a user to more detailed tests and a re-reading of the manual quite > often > > additional information from more experienced users is most helpful. > > > > It's not difficult, as experienced users, to anticipate the type of > > information that might be required to guide someone past the > difficulties > > expressed in their posting to the list. > > > > The Bacula user's community is somewhat self-selected to be more > > "professional" than the general Linux user in that smaller > installations > > don't need a backup system as capable as bacula. > > > > Please remember to treat our community members with respect and > patience. > > > > The mailing list is the primary support channel available to all users > > at all experience levels. While a product's technical excellence is > important > > in choosing a solution for business needs, a FOSS product whose user > > community is treated well by their peers will enjoy greater success > than one > > who's users are left to support themselves completely. > > > > Vendors of proprietary products are quite often judged by users and > in the > > trade press on both quality of their products and quality of their > support. > > The same is true for FOSS products except that /we/ are the support > staff and > > the competition is just a download away. If a Bacula user can't get > their problem > > resolved quickly and easily with help from the mailing list they'll > quickly > > move on to another solution. They don't have the options that are > available > > to users of proprietary products - find another support vendor or use > > financial incentives with the vendor to improve response from them. > > > > /rant mode off/ > > > > > > Alan Davis > > Senior Architect > > Ruckus Network, Inc. > > 703.464.6578 (o) > > 410.365.7175 (m) > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > alancdavis AIM > > > > -- > --- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to > share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php? > page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
On Friday 16 March 2007 13:48, Ryan Novosielski wrote: > Alan Davis wrote: > >>El vie, 16-03-2007 a las 16:14 +0100, Marc Cuypers escribi?: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Has someone bacula working with a HP MSL2024 autochanger? > >> > >>Indeed. > >> > > /rant mode on/ > > > > Ladies and Gentleman, > > As I feel that this could be partially directed at me, I feel inclined > to weigh in a certain amount. More posted below. > > > The mailing list is the primary customer support mechanism and one of > > the only expressions of "community" for the excellent "community > > supported" product that is Bacula. > > > > I have seen too many responses on this list that, while they may answer > > the question /exactly/ (although too many aren't even that helpful) they > > provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. > > The problem with too many initial posts on this list lately is they too > provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. There are far > too many posts to the list asking for far too much information. "I am > new to Bacula !! How I can set up my tape drive?" I understand we are a > support community, but the expectation is that the user will at least > pick up the manual and say where they have gone right or wrong... they > will provide their version number and platform, and often that they'll > provide config files that they've tried that don't work. The expectation > is there that if someone is going to take the time to help them, they > are to take the time to try to help themselves. I personally get enough > of the former at work, where I am paid to answer those kinds of questions. > > > Please keep in mind as you respond that users come to this list looking > > for help with a complex system that they probably don't understand fully. > > While sometimes the assurance that something is indeed possible is enough > > to spur a user to more detailed tests and a re-reading of the manual > > quite often additional information from more experienced users is most > > helpful. > > Unfortunately, often times the initial poster has not even read the > manual at all. When someone comes in asking how to do something that > even has a chapter heading, how much sympathy is one supposed to have? > In cases like this, I didn't even really see anything negative about the > response. Does this autochanger work with Bacula? Yes. In fact I've > asked that question myself, just to make sure I'm not barking up the > wrong tree. That doesn't mean I want someone to provide me with a > definition of how to do so. Also, since I see this particular > autochanger in the subject line -- if the original user bothered to > search the mailing list archives, they would have answered their own > question with any number of the ten and change posts since May of 2006. > > > It's not difficult, as experienced users, to anticipate the type of > > information that might be required to guide someone past the difficulties > > expressed in their posting to the list. > > In this case, it might be, considering the user didn't post whether or > not he even owned one yet -- perhaps he's just considering purchasing one? > > > Vendors of proprietary products are quite often judged by users and in > > the trade press on both quality of their products and quality of their > > support. The same is true for FOSS products except that /we/ are the > > support staff and the competition is just a download away. If a Bacula > > user can't get their problem resolved quickly and easily with help from > > the mailing list they'll quickly move on to another solution. They don't > > have the options that are available to users of proprietary products - > > find another support vendor or use financial incentives with the vendor > > to improve response from them. > > And if, with an excellent manual available, and fairly expert help > available on the mailing list when people ask a proper question, I would > say anyone who can't get the help they need to get their problem > resolved fairly quickly (by resolved, I mean maybe not having their > issue fixed, but at the very least finding out the reason for their > trouble) is probably going to need commercial support anyway (which is > not generally any better than open source support, except for the fact > that the customer service people are paid to be nice to you). In this > particular case, I don't even see what set off the rant. > > > /rant mode off/ I agree with everything said in both of these posts, but would like to add one further observation. That is, that many posting to this list are not native speakers of the English/American language and have difficulty expressing themselves. As someone without the ability to speak any other language than English I am very sympathetic to their struggles. In this instance I chuckled at the one word response to the question--I've done it many times myself to the great irritation of my family & friends--but wondered if the questioner really wanted
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
On Fri, March 16, 2007 11:48 am, Ryan Novosielski wrote: > I personally get enough of the former at work, where I am paid to answer those kinds of questions. As do many of us, I'm sure. How about this: Either provide a helpful response, or go on to the next message without responding. If you feel the person doesn't deserve your help, don't help. Michael -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alan Davis wrote: > >>El vie, 16-03-2007 a las 16:14 +0100, Marc Cuypers escribi?: >>> Hi, >>> Has someone bacula working with a HP MSL2024 autochanger? >>Indeed. > > /rant mode on/ > Ladies and Gentleman, As I feel that this could be partially directed at me, I feel inclined to weigh in a certain amount. More posted below. > The mailing list is the primary customer support mechanism and one of > the only expressions of "community" for the excellent "community supported" > product that is Bacula. > > I have seen too many responses on this list that, while they may answer the > question /exactly/ (although too many aren't even that helpful) they > provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. The problem with too many initial posts on this list lately is they too provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. There are far too many posts to the list asking for far too much information. "I am new to Bacula !! How I can set up my tape drive?" I understand we are a support community, but the expectation is that the user will at least pick up the manual and say where they have gone right or wrong... they will provide their version number and platform, and often that they'll provide config files that they've tried that don't work. The expectation is there that if someone is going to take the time to help them, they are to take the time to try to help themselves. I personally get enough of the former at work, where I am paid to answer those kinds of questions. > Please keep in mind as you respond that users come to this list looking for > help with a complex system that they probably don't understand fully. While > sometimes the assurance that something is indeed possible is enough to spur > a user to more detailed tests and a re-reading of the manual quite often > additional information from more experienced users is most helpful. Unfortunately, often times the initial poster has not even read the manual at all. When someone comes in asking how to do something that even has a chapter heading, how much sympathy is one supposed to have? In cases like this, I didn't even really see anything negative about the response. Does this autochanger work with Bacula? Yes. In fact I've asked that question myself, just to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree. That doesn't mean I want someone to provide me with a definition of how to do so. Also, since I see this particular autochanger in the subject line -- if the original user bothered to search the mailing list archives, they would have answered their own question with any number of the ten and change posts since May of 2006. > It's not difficult, as experienced users, to anticipate the type of > information that might be required to guide someone past the difficulties > expressed in their posting to the list. In this case, it might be, considering the user didn't post whether or not he even owned one yet -- perhaps he's just considering purchasing one? > Vendors of proprietary products are quite often judged by users and in the > trade press on both quality of their products and quality of their support. > The same is true for FOSS products except that /we/ are the support > staff and the competition is just a download away. If a Bacula user can't get > their problem resolved quickly and easily with help from the mailing list > they'll quickly > move on to another solution. They don't have the options that are available > to users of proprietary products - find another support vendor or use > financial incentives with the vendor to improve response from them. And if, with an excellent manual available, and fairly expert help available on the mailing list when people ask a proper question, I would say anyone who can't get the help they need to get their problem resolved fairly quickly (by resolved, I mean maybe not having their issue fixed, but at the very least finding out the reason for their trouble) is probably going to need commercial support anyway (which is not generally any better than open source support, except for the fact that the customer service people are paid to be nice to you). In this particular case, I don't even see what set off the rant. > /rant mode off/ - -- _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ |Y#| | | |\/| | \ |\ | | |Ryan Novosielski - Systems Programmer III |$&| |__| | | |__/ | \| _| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 973/972.0922 (2-0922) \__/ Univ. of Med. and Dent.|IST/AST - NJMS Medical Science Bldg - C630 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+uZhmb+gadEcsb4RAm3OAJ9oKkdOa2P5ea8Jwhael46rzqXHZQCgtSiI 2bfyRYadPT87K9tCl0giPvg= =PcH9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT &
Re: [Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
On Fri, March 16, 2007 11:05 am, Alan Davis wrote: > /rant mode on/ Awesome response, Alan. It sure has been nasty around here recently! Michael -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
[Bacula-users] Unhelpful help (was Re: Bacula and HP MSL2024 autochanger)
>Message: 8 >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:51:32 +0100 > >El vie, 16-03-2007 a las 16:14 +0100, Marc Cuypers escribi?: >> Hi, >> >> Has someone bacula working with a HP MSL2024 autochanger? >> > >Indeed. > /rant mode on/ Ladies and Gentleman, The mailing list is the primary customer support mechanism and one of the only expressions of "community" for the excellent "community supported" product that is Bacula. I have seen too many responses on this list that, while they may answer the question /exactly/ (although too many aren't even that helpful) they provide absolutely no useful or meaningful information. Please keep in mind as you respond that users come to this list looking for help with a complex system that they probably don't understand fully. While sometimes the assurance that something is indeed possible is enough to spur a user to more detailed tests and a re-reading of the manual quite often additional information from more experienced users is most helpful. It's not difficult, as experienced users, to anticipate the type of information that might be required to guide someone past the difficulties expressed in their posting to the list. The Bacula user's community is somewhat self-selected to be more "professional" than the general Linux user in that smaller installations don't need a backup system as capable as bacula. Please remember to treat our community members with respect and patience. The mailing list is the primary support channel available to all users at all experience levels. While a product's technical excellence is important in choosing a solution for business needs, a FOSS product whose user community is treated well by their peers will enjoy greater success than one who's users are left to support themselves completely. Vendors of proprietary products are quite often judged by users and in the trade press on both quality of their products and quality of their support. The same is true for FOSS products except that /we/ are the support staff and the competition is just a download away. If a Bacula user can't get their problem resolved quickly and easily with help from the mailing list they'll quickly move on to another solution. They don't have the options that are available to users of proprietary products - find another support vendor or use financial incentives with the vendor to improve response from them. /rant mode off/ Alan Davis Senior Architect Ruckus Network, Inc. 703.464.6578 (o) 410.365.7175 (m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] alancdavis AIM - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
