Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
>>"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any
outrage is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"
>Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not
an importer.
Perhaps Mark means net importer.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"
>What did you have in mind as a means of freeing the poor from oppressive
capitalism?
>I'll later return to the question of why are you limiting this to the
adverse effects of capitalism, not >addressing the other "isms" that also
grievously harm people. But I'm primarily interested in what you >think
could be done, and what means used.
We can address the other "isms", perhaps starting with materialism which
seems to be both a cause and an effect of unbridled capitalism.
The spirit that sent forth, not so long ago, in such rapid succession, so
many pioneers to such remote areas of the globe, must at all costs and above
everything else, be recaptured, for the twofold purpose of swelling the
number, and of ensuring the continual flow, of pioneers, so essential for
the safeguarding of the prizes won in the course of the several campaigns of
a world-girdling Crusade, and of combatting the evil forces which a
relentless and all-pervasive materialism, the cancerous growth of militant
racialism, political corruption, unbridled capitalism, wide-spread
lawlessness and gross immorality, are, alas, unleashing, with ominous
swiftness, amongst various classes of the society to which the members of
this community belong.
(Shoghi Effendi: Citadel of Faith, Page: 154)
No, Baha'u'llah did not bring a complete system of economics to the world.
Profit sharing is recommended as a solution to one form of economic
problems. There is nothing in the teachings against some kind of
capitalism; its present form, though, would require adjustments to be made."
(Shoghi Effendi: Directives of the Guardian, Page: 20)
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Brent,
At 09:52 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote:
>>Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not an
>>importer.<<
By importers, I am referring to corporate capitalists and transnational
corporations, i.e., the corporatocracy (corporate power). The U.S. is the
global center of corporate capitalism, the primary sponsor of the WTO, etc.
>>To remedy the abuses of migrant agricultural workers, the U.S. Congress
>>passed a law requiring the field owner to get an "H-2A" visa for its
>>temporary agricultural workers, say, 100 people to pick lettuce. The process
>>to get visas for these 100 workers requires the following:<<
IMO, they are just bandaids. Mexicans are streaming into the U.S. to take
low-end jobs. Some of those jobs are on farms in California. A recent survey
found that more than 50% of Mexicans, if given the choice, would move to the
U.S. NAFTA and related measures have created a new underclass.
>>So the growers, who would pay the fees if it was a viable process, instead
>>just revert back to hiring the people illegally. The remedy, though
>>well-intentioned, is just too burdensome, I am told.<<
Yes, and governments often look the other way - just as they are doing with
illegal immigrants. IMO, these problems can only be solved in the context of a
just, globalized, socialized economy.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"
Brent,
At 09:44 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote:
>>What did you have in mind as a means of freeing the poor from oppressive
>>capitalism?<<
Here is what I wrote in one of my papers:
"Briefly, a category of praxis which might be immediately utilized in service
projects for Structurization Tech would involve an active participation in
social and economic development. Opportunities for volunteerism could run the
gambit from working for non-profit agencies assisting low-income families and
individuals to, conceivably, providing aid to victims of natural and man-made
disasters, especially the poor, should they become displaced to, perhaps even
more ambitiously, planning and constructing intentional communities for the
poor and disenfranchised."
>>I'll later return to the question of why are you limiting this to the adverse
>>effects of capitalism, not addressing the other "isms" that also grievously
>>harm people. But I'm primarily interested in what you think could be done,
>>and what means used.<<
I accept the Marxist premise that other isms (racism, sexism, militarism, state
terrorism, classism, ageism, ableism, etc.) operate within the matrix of
capitalism.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any outrage
is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"
Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not an
importer.
"Well, the economic abuse of migrant workers is still going on."
To remedy the abuses of migrant agricultural workers, the U.S. Congress passed
a law requiring the field owner to get an "H-2A" visa for its temporary
agricultural workers, say, 100 people to pick lettuce. The process to get visas
for these 100 workers requires the following:
Determine from the state economist the "prevailing wage" paid to US workers in
that sector, and agree to match that wage
Advertise for American workers for a period of time
The Labor Department then certifies that the salary offered is correct, and
that no US workers applied.
The employer then needs:
A certificate from the Department of Transportation that the buses carrying the
workers to the fields are in proper shape
A certificate from the Food and Drug Administration that the food being
provided to the workers is nutritious
A certificate from the Department of Housing and Urban Development that the
lodging provided is habitable
A certificate from the Environmental Protection Agency that proper safeguards
are provided against pesticides and fertilizers
Certificates from the Department of Health, etc. etc. -- in all about a dozen
such certificates. All of these require that an inspector come to the facility
and view the food, the water, the lodging, the buses, the equipment, etc. And
this cannot be done ahead of time, it must be within a strict time frame. And
all of this time -- the lettuce is in the field approaching the stage where it
rots.
I do not handle these visas, they are far too complex, and I only know two
immigration lawyers who do. One charges 15 thousand dollars, and the other, 20
thousand dollars. They take a huge amount of time, and these applications,
certificates, advertisements, and inspections all must be feathered together
within a tolerance of a few days. If one step is missed, the entire process is
invalidated and no visas issued to the workers.
Requiring all of these inspections is surely the result of the abuses of
migrant workers for decades. However, the response is so onerous, and the time
frame so short, and some of the requirements so needless (Americans are not
applying for the job, yet the advertising must be done anyway) that the end
result is that often, there is insufficient time to get the visas in time to
save the harvest. So the growers, who would pay the fees if it was a viable
process, instead just revert back to hiring the people illegally. The remedy,
though well-intentioned, is just too burdensome, I am told.
And once the worker works illegally, and lives in the USA illegally for more
than one year, even if the worker later qualifies for a visa, he or she is
required to leave the USA for ten years before being permitted to get a visa.
Often these workers are the most valuable employees -- they don't call in sick,
they are trustworthy, I have heard dozens of employers tell me that their
employees they just found out are illegal, are far and away their best
employees. And there is no remedy for them; they are not allowed to get lawful
visas, unless they marry a US citizen. But based on employment alone --
nothing can be done for them. They are effectively sentenced to a lifetime
"under the table."
Brent
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology"
>>In a Baha'i liberation "theology," what role, if any, should Baha'is play in
>>freeing the poor from oppressive capitalism? Will we be judged if we do not?>>
What did you have in mind as a means of freeing the poor from oppressive
capitalism?
I'll later return to the question of why are you limiting this to the adverse
effects of capitalism, not addressing the other "isms" that also grievously
harm people. But I'm primarily interested in what you think could be done, and
what means used.
Brent
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Dear mark, You write: "Harmonization" can be defined in different ways; and "uniformity" is one of those definitions. It may sound nice to say that we should not work at cross-purposes. However, I have *frequently* seen terms such as "unified action" misused to suppress diversity and individual initiative and to impose uniformity." I agree, that *can* happen - but we're talking in a Baha’i context here and I think the Universal house of Justice is fully able to comprehend and implement the difference between harmonisation as uniformity and harmonisation as co-ordination of various methodologies. You write: "I see no "crucial areas of similarity" between Marshall Tito's Yugoslavia and Kim Il Sung's North Korea - only superficial ones." I know *a lot* of Serbs and Croatians and they would be stunned by your statement that they did not live in a Communist state. So would Milvan Djilas (author of the explosive "The New Class: An Analysis of the Communist" System [1957])His insider's book was especially focussed on Yugoslavia as a Communist state. Both Tito's Yugoslavia and Sung's North Korea were run on strict Marxist/Communist dogma: class struggle, Party as vanguard, historical and dialectical materialism etc. You write: "You have simply provided a definition: Communist states are totalitarian. Well, modern mainland China is not totalitarian. Using conventional definitions, it would be authoritarian. " But I did not say all totalitarian states are communist. China is was and to a large extent still totalitarian e.g. does not recognise the difference between public and private spheres of existence - which is why it persecutes people for private opinions. Religious beliefs and keeps close control of the internet. Although China *was* fully Communist (and totalitarian) it is, as I have said before, in the process of dismantling Communism - although it is still trying to hang on to the totalitarian aspect of Communism. You write: "And Karl Marx did not advocate totalitarianism either. His (and Engels') view of "communism" was a classless, stateless society (succeeding socialism)." But first they advocated dictatorship of the proletariat - a phase no Communist country has ever gotten beyond. The fact is there has never been a Communist state which has not also been totalitarian. They are correlates. And, as I've said before, what person - then or now - with a lick of people smarts would ever take the vision of a stateless modern society seriously? That was just honey for flies. You write: "Well, now we are going back to our realism-nominalism discussion. I don't think we will likely agree on that subject. People did not live under communism. They lived under particular governments. Certain people decided, on the basis of their own standards of evaluation, to place those governments under the same category." People lived under a particular governments whose policies were guided by the work of Marx, Lenin, Stalin etc. Those ideas and works shared a certain number of similarities labelled 'Communism.' It could have labelled XYZ but the similarities remain. You write: "Actually, Maoist communism was frequently very successful (though not by the standards of some Westerners). Personally, I would like to see the Chinese government renew many of Mao's ideas (before his paranoia about the Soviet Union, etc., and other factors, led him to embark on his cultural revolution). Instead, they are creating a synthesis of corporate capitalism and Confucianism. The peasants are being disenfranchised." Like the "Great Leap Forward" maybe, with its app. 30 million famine victims? (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:GZJAVj8ap1gJ:www.mindground.net/glp.html+The+great+leap+forward&hl=en) What's important however - and the key issue in this discussion - is the fact that the Chinese leadership has recognised that a modern industrialized society cannot be built on Marxist/Communist principles. You write: >>That's what he and his followers *claimed* - but then they stood to be the new ruling class. Nothing in T's record encourages us to take these claims at face value. A corrupt leader like Brezshnev also claimed to be empowering the proletariat.<< "What Brezshnev said or did is not relevant. We only have Trotsky's words to go on, since he was forced into exile and murdered. He never had the chance to prove himself as the Communist leader." Really? He was 'only' the leader of the world's most powerful Communist state for 18 years. That's 25% of the span of Communist rule in Russia. I would think his words and deeds *very* relevant. We have more than Trotsky's words - we have his actions and there is nothing in his actions to suggest he would have become anything than their heir of Lenin vis-à-vis his reliance on terror and force. Trotsky/Stalin? Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other. You write:
RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Ian, At 04:47 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: >>I said harmonization - which some might regard as uniformity. However, >>methods must not work at cross-purposes.<< Yes, you wrote: "The methodologies do not need to be 'uniform' but they must harmonise and cannot work at cross-purposes. I suppose one might regard that harmonization as a kind of uniformity." "Harmonization" can be defined in different ways; and "uniformity" is one of those definitions. It may sound nice to say that we should not work at cross-purposes. However, I have *frequently* seen terms such as "unified action" misused to suppress diversity and individual initiative and to impose uniformity. >>I disagree. There is variety and diversity within Communism but there are >>also crucial areas of similarity.<< I see no "crucial areas of similarity" between Marshall Tito's Yugoslavia and Kim Il Sung's North Korea - only superficial ones. >>Their survival is not the issue here. The point is they are Communist states, >>and like all communist states, totalitarian.<< You have simply provided a definition: Communist states are totalitarian. Well, modern mainland China is not totalitarian. Using conventional definitions, it would be authoritarian. And Karl Marx did not advocate totalitarianism either. His (and Engels') view of "communism" was a classless, stateless society (succeeding socialism). >>Well, I'm an essentialist after all. Of course there is such an ideology we >>call Communism: ask the billions who have lived under it.<< Well, now we are going back to our realism-nominalism discussion. I don't think we will likely agree on that subject. People did not live under communism. They lived under particular governments. Certain people decided, on the basis of their own standards of evaluation, to place those governments under the same category. >>That's beside the point. The point is that China has realised that Communism >>simply doesn't work as an economic/social system and is moving away from it >>step by step.<< Actually, Maoist communism was frequently very successful (though not by the standards of some Westerners). Personally, I would like to see the Chinese government renew many of Mao's ideas (before his paranoia about the Soviet Union, etc., and other factors, led him to embark on his cultural revolution). Instead, they are creating a synthesis of corporate capitalism and Confucianism. The peasants are being disenfranchised. >>That's what he and his followers *claimed* - but then they stood to be the >>new ruling class. Nothing in T's record encourages us to take these claims >>at face value. A corrupt leader like Brezshnev also claimed to be empowering >>the proletariat.<< What Brezshnev said or did is not relevant. We only have Trotsky's words to go on, since he was forced into exile and murdered. He never had the chance to prove himself as the Communist leader. >>But you did bring in Marxism and Trotsky several times in a Bahai context and >>that naturally raises the question, 'Why?'<< I bring it up because of my perspectivism (in some cases, to illustrate it). I have no problem holding several radically different, contradictory, and apparently unconnected points of view in my mind simultaneously. IMO, they are all just relative narratives. >>Could you do us a favour, please? When you speak as a Baha'i preface the >>remark with a '(B)' and when you speak as a sociologist with an '(S)'. That >>would clarify your communications and help us understand what you are trying >>to say.<< Ian, I could say the same to you. When you speak about your "common sense realism," put an "R" and a "B" when you are speaking of the Baha'i Faith. ;-) >>That's beside the point. The fact is, Marx's claim was not to be taken >>seriously by anyone (not just Communist leaders) since the withering away of >>the state is as childishly naïve as the claim that a man could be a hunter in >>the morning, a fisherman in the afternoon, a shepherd in the evening and a >>critic after supper.<< I agree it is impractical and overly idealistic - not that it is exactly naive. The principal difference between Marx and Engels' communism and Bakunin's communism is that the latter rejected the prerequisite of socialism (the instrumentality of the state). If you remove the socialism from Marx and Engels' views, you have anarchism. >>Anyone with two licks worth of common sense knows this is rubbish.<< There are a lot of people, with a great deal of common sense, who, even now, are working toward socialism (with communism as the ultimate objective). Two of those people are my colleagues in the Sociology Department. Because I am a Baha'i, and cannot participate in these activities, my use of Marxism is more methodological (dialectical materialism) than practical. However, my own view is that a global revolution *is* occurring right now. Marx was correct about the revolution but wrong about what it would look
