Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
> On 1/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear > that you are not welcome here without one? I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also another option which you offered. But in addition I also made a statement which constituted an apology. You then cut and isolated the least apologetic sentence and said "this is not an apology". And when I pasted the rest of my statements back into the conversation in order to provide more context, you complained that I had distorted your words. (which would only be a problem if what you took out actually was an apology) I think we are two individuals who are equally deserving of consideration and respect. If you "get to" say offensive and insulting things to me without apologizing, then if I say something you don't like, it would be inappropriate to give an ultimatum the way you did, especially when my intention wasn't to offend. Is there a charter for the group which explains conditions for participation? -Gilberto > Susan > > > > > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > __ > > > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "There are no poets" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or bada, the list vowel is a long"A" as in "fAther". You can trasliterate it badA or badAA, or badaa, orbada, or whatever. The second letter is a short "a" as in "bad". But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh ... Iskandar Dear Brent,My recollection is that he said they had a different root. Unfortunately, we can't access the archives any more to check. Khazeh jan, are you out there? warmest, Susan Dearest all i swear by God I beg forgiveness of God by virtue of Iskandar jan's kind references to this dust. i am nothing and daily my sense of nothingness before the Almighty Ocean of this Revelation increases. Dearest Brent has explained things beautifully as well as Iskandar jan and Susan yourself. but just on the simple level of etymology and words. 1] there is a word and verb B.D. 'A [with 'ayn] as the last of the tri-literal letters. this one means creating anew creating wondrously etc from which on the POSITIVE sense we have badii' with 'ayn at the end as the name of the Martyr [but negatively its meaning and connotation is starting a new practice such as the Shari'ah of this faith is accused of as being as a bid'at] so both positively and negatively its root is B.D.'A [with the 'ayn] 2] then there is the word and verb badaa' with a long alif at the end. this comes from the tri-literal root B.D. A [but this time the A is alif]...this one is the subject of the discussion re: Noah's promise not coming to pass and the reference to the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq's son ...] but that aside there are mysteries in the Faith wonderful mysteries may my being be a sacrifice to your efforts but i am absolutely humbled by the Magnitude of this Revelation and affected by your kindness. Everything emanates from Him and the love and kindness of God's Universal House of Justice Brent said: "10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden in theKitáb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj.""ANSWER: All are charged with obedience to theKitáb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed therein isthe Law of God amid His servants. The injunctionon pilgrims to the sacred House to shave the headhath been lifted."(Tablet of Questions and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109)So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in the Aqdas prohibited shaving the head. Did He change His mind? I think that is perhaps the first instinct, to think that. But a few other thoughts come to mind. One is that by this law, Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have requiring pilgrims to shave the head. Then this law would be seen in the same light as the laws of the Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never intended to be enforced, but rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as an independent Manifestation.So the reason that a Manifestation reveals something, is not always the obvious one.My personal take on this, is that in this verse from Questions and Answers Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other Writings. It is a more effective lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating that it is pre-eminent.Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, Baha'u'llah later added a passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His devotion to the Bab and states that He wants to lay down His life for Him. Shoghi Effendi selected this passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, not knowing that it was an afterthought. Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was present when the original of the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was presented to Shoghi Effendi:"These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about eighteen years old, and bore some additions in the Hand of Bahá'u'lláh, insertions which He had written on the margins of many pages in reviewing the manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never before seen the original of the Íqán and was deeply astonished to discover that the phrase he had chosen from this book and placed on the title page of his translation of Nabil's Narrative, The Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of Bahá'u'lláh's, written by Himself, on the margin of one page. The phrase in question is the one starting: 'I stand, life in hand, ready; that perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. ed.). See DB for the translation here used, which appears on the title page.]"The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed as well, because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been inspired to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bahá'u'lláh's yearning to sacrifice His life for the Báb, the Primal Point. All of us who were seated at the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt that the existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible world of God was so
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means > that a > every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and > changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion > of God. > To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but > Progressive Revelation. Dear Iskandar, The concept of badaa may well include Progressive Revelation, but given the way it is used in the Writings it is certainly not exclusive to it. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
Gilberto, Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear that you are not welcome here without one? Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
On 1/29/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through > Aghsán or Afnán lines? > > If the answer is 'yes', then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid > Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize > it because of 'siyyid's denomination. > > If the answer is 'no', I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the > seed of all Prophets? There is a passage in the Quran which is sometimes read that way. But about the earlier issue, I think that if you go back far enough we are "all" related. For example, there is some indication that even John Kerry is descended from the prophet Muhammad (saaws)... I think through some distant Persian ancestry. And so he is also descended from Abraham. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
At 11:52 AM -0600 1/29/06, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes". Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. If all the descendants of a couple marry and have 2 children, after 35 generations you have 2 to the power of 35 descendants or about 35 billion. That's why every white guy in the world, and many non-whites, can trace their family tree back to Charlemagne. A couple things complicate this - Rejecting matrilineal descendants, Marrying cousins. Don C -- -.-.-.-.- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You still joke? If family trees are nothing for you, then the hereditary principle (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing ! but NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams holy tombs. The glorious lineage of both the Báb and Baháulláh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything! is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. ! ; __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
You still joke? If family trees are “nothing” for you, then the “hereditary principle” (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing but NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams’ holy tombs. The “glorious lineage” of both the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything! is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:too extreme no? you must be kidding, I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!... Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The informat! ion may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para ! todos! tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
too extreme no? you must be kidding, I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!... Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para ! todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many. Regards, ScottHasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. / For you a historian is the same as a baháí historian or a baháí who is an historian? why you worry? Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure > lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s > denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think Im getting your point but with technology we can trace these blood lines, dont you think? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham > to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab! raham is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (city-State unity) and Muhammad (nation unity sealing Prophets) are from Israels prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israels root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel! s root is the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the ! use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. / For you a “historian” is the same as a “bahá’í historian” or a “bahá’í who is an historian”? – why you worry? Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids’ roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure > lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s > denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think I’m getting your point… but with technology we can trace these blood lines, don’t you think? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham > to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab! raham is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (“city-State unity”) and Muhammad (“nation unity” sealing Prophets) are from Israel’s prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israel’s root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel’! s root is the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
I'm not sure.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Possibly from past lines.> I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and > Aghsán. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? Guardians' line
Yes, I think the cut of Guardians’ line is about badaa, maybe because unworthiness of humans, and this unworthiness because we don’t reach the high standard. If a hypothetically future living Guardian could easily recognize next Prophet, it will be “ate bread” (pan comido), humanity, thus won’t deserve this; we can think in a lot of reasons. What is true is that Aghsán and Holy family did not fulfill this hope of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (on the contrary, they caused sadness): “O ye the faithful loved ones of 'Abdu'l-Bahá! It is incumbent upon you to take the greatest care of Shoghi Effendi, the twig that hath branched from and the fruit given forth by the two hallowed and Divine Lote-Trees, that no dust of despondency and sorrow may stain his radiant nature, that day by day he may wax greater in happiness, in joy and spirituality, and may grow to become even as a fruitful tree”. Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I compare this to Baha’u’llah revealing verses, then casting them into the river. (GPB 138) It was God’s Will to reveal them; but then, as Baha’u’llah says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardi! an and House functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found worthy. That doesn’t mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
My understanding is that this badAA concept/doctrine is a Shi`ii thing. I don't know if Sunni Muslims have a particular emphasis on it. For Shi`ah Muslims badAA is when God chnages His mind. The successor the the Shi`ah 6th Imam (Imam J`afar the Truthful) was supposed to be his son Ismael (IsmA`il). Strories vary as to why and hos it got changed to J`afar's son MusA al-kAzim. Hence, the Twelver Shi`ites believe that MusA is/was the legitimate successor to J`afar. But you also have the IsmA`ily sect. Anyhow, my own personal understanding of the term badAA in the Baha'i Writings is formed by what I heard from the renowned Persian Baha'i scholar and prolific writer `abdu'l-hameed ishrAq-khAvari (who himself was an erudite and well-read Shi`ah Muslim cleric before he embraced The Faith). He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means that a every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion of God. To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but Progressive Revelation. Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or bada, the list vowel is a long "A" as in "fAther". You can trasliterate it badA or badAA, or badaa, or bada, or whatever. The second letter is a short "a" as in "bad". But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh for his encylopaedic knowledge of all things Islamic and Christian and Jewish and Baha'i. With apologies and respectful regards, Iskandar The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
> Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as > Badi’. Dear Brent, My recollection is that he said they had a different root. Unfortunately, we can't access the archives any more to check. Khazeh jan, are you out there? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
"10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj." "ANSWER: All are charged with obedience to the Kitáb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed therein is the Law of God amid His servants. The injunction on pilgrims to the sacred House to shave the head hath been lifted." (Tablet of Questions and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109) So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in the Aqdas prohibited shaving the head. Did He change His mind? I think that is perhaps the first instinct, to think that. But a few other thoughts come to mind. One is that by this law, Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have requiring pilgrims to shave the head. Then this law would be seen in the same light as the laws of the Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never intended to be enforced, but rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as an independent Manifestation. So the reason that a Manifestation reveals something, is not always the obvious one. My personal take on this, is that in this verse from Questions and Answers Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other Writings. It is a more effective lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating that it is pre-eminent. Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, Baha'u'llah later added a passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His devotion to the Bab and states that He wants to lay down His life for Him. Shoghi Effendi selected this passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, not knowing that it was an afterthought. Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was present when the original of the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was presented to Shoghi Effendi: "These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about eighteen years old, and bore some additions in the Hand of Bahá'u'lláh, insertions which He had written on the margins of many pages in reviewing the manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never before seen the original of the Íqán and was deeply astonished to discover that the phrase he had chosen from this book and placed on the title page of his translation of Nabil's Narrative, The Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of Bahá'u'lláh's, written by Himself, on the margin of one page. The phrase in question is the one starting: 'I stand, life in hand, ready; that perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. ed.). See DB for the translation here used, which appears on the title page.] "The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed as well, because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been inspired to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bahá'u'lláh's yearning to sacrifice His life for the Báb, the Primal Point. All of us who were seated at the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt that the existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible world of God was something that no one should ever doubt." (Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 148) So again, does this mean that Baha'u'llah changed His mind about the contents of the Iqan? Or was this a way of emphasizing this passage? Perhaps we can read of an addition to the Aqdas in the same light: "The eighth Ishraq "This passage, now written by the Pen of Glory, is accounted as part of the Most Holy Book: The men of God's House of Justice have been charged with the affairs of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries. "O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the House of Justice that the members thereof may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book." (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, pp. 128-129) Does this mean that Baha'u'llah didn't think of this passage when He authored the Aqdas? That God left something out of the Book, and Baha'u'llah remedied it later? It is my own personal view that by this method Baha'u'llah has emphasized this matter. Just as the Master selected the very last verse of His Will -- literally the very last words He addressed to the human race -- to direct us to turn to the House of Justice and the Guardian and seek their guidance; in th
Re: to David B.
Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BE Hasan, I would have to get the permission of the recipient first. David David, I think I never saw this letter, could you send it to bahai-library.com? Please contact the admin Jonah Winters. For my part I will save it immediately on my HDD. David Bowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BE In 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply. David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu David Bowie, 8974 Armstrong Way Halfmoon Bay BC V0N 1Y2 604-885-4127 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
I think that this is one of the instances of bada'a in the Writings. Here is is translated as "creation": ". . . the Beauty of the Unseen hath shone forth above the horizon of creation" Prayers and Meditations p. 311. Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as Badi’. I understand Badi’ to mean unique, wonderful, new, unprecedented, never before seen, among other meanings. So I gather that the application to God changing His mind – (a very anthropomorphic concept, as we are talking about universal Mind and not limited, linear, rational, dinky little human mind) -- has to do with originating something new. My view of the ending of the line of Guardians is that it is not the failure of a promise. The Guardian functioning with the House was anticipated by the Master, but in the second part of His Will He does not mention the Guardianship and provides for the House to function infallibly without the Guardian; and Baha’u’llah in the Aqdas foreshadows the possibility of the ending of the line of Guardians before the House is established (Aqdas Note 66). It is my understanding that the continuation of the line of Guardians functioning with the House was one of several options. Another option anticipated was that the House would have come into being right after the Master’s passing, and that Shoghi Effendi would not have functioned without the House. Another was the way it actually came about. I compare this to Baha’u’llah revealing verses, then casting them into the river. (GPB 138) It was God’s Will to reveal them; but then, as Baha’u’llah says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardian and House functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found worthy. That doesn’t mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled. As to the verse about day not being followed by night, Shoghi Effendi did relate this to the line of Guardians. It means that guidance remains on the earth until the next Manifestation comes – there is no “night”. The guidance promised to the Guardian in the Master’s Will, is the same guidance promised to the House, in the same verse. (Master’s Will, p. 11). The House also takes this approach: “The election of the Universal House of Justice was greeted with great joy by the world-wide Bahá'í community, for it ensured the continuation of divine guidance until the advent of the next Manifestation of God, thereby fulfilling the prophecy that there would come a ‘Day which shall not be followed by night.’" (The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. xxvii; also see letter in the Scholarship Compilation). As to whether the Guardian, in referring to the “machinery” remaining behind after Baha’u’llah into future Dispensations, and whether this refers to the House of Justice always being on the earth: It should also be borne in mind that the machinery of the Cause has been so fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the provisions made by Bahá'u'lláh, be safely embodied therein. To this testify the words of Bahá'u'lláh, as recorded in the Eighth Leaf of the exalted Paradise: "It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take counsel together regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the Omniscient." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 22) And finally the tenth part of this mighty process must be the penetration of that light, in the course of numerous crusades and of successive epochs of both the Formative and Golden Ages of the Faith, into all the remaining territories of the globe through the erection of the entire machinery of Bahá'u'lláh's Administrative Order in all territories, both East and West, the stage at which the light of God's triumphant Faith shining in all its power and glory will have suffused and enveloped the entire planet. (Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 155) The House of Justice is the crown of that machinery. Brent The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Tha
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
> Dear Susan, do you know any text on which the Central Figures or > the Guardian mention the word badaa/badah? I would like to see the > context/meaning of this word. Dear Hasan, Sometime back Khazeh put up a rather long post on this theme. Essentially all the Central Figures and the Guardian have mentioned this doctrine. One of the passages Khazeh brought to our attention is the fact that third chapter of the fourth Vahid of the Persian Bayan is dedicated to this topic. [Khudaavand ibaadat kardeh na-meeshavad be-heech cheez mesl-e-Badaa.] The Bab asserts that the teaching Badaa' in both Shi'ism in general and Shaykhism in particular are valid. Page 112 of this text asserts unequivocally that "fi annal-badaa lillahi haqqun.' Roughly translated, this means that badaa is of divine origin. It goes on to say that no one can worship God who rejects this doctrine for they are essentially saying "lima wa bima" why and wherefore when He changes His decree. For those of you who don't know any Arabic Edward Browne translates the four pages of this part of the Bayan which are quoted in Momen's book, p. 351: "concerning this that God doth in truth change His plans God is not worshipped in anything as He is by the doctrine of al-Badaa since this is a confession of His power." Also, in the Seven Proofs page 51 line 13 the Bab affirms the doctrine of badaa' [Az baraaye-Khudaavand Badaa' boodeh...] Amanat's book gives several instances of badaa' in Babi history especially regarding the time when it was expected that the Bab would formally start a jihad against the unbelievers. I couldn't find my copy of Amanat's book so I will provide this account from Dawnbreakers: "Soon after Naw-Ruz, an epistle reached them by way of Basrih, in which the Bab, who had intended to return from Hijaz to Persia by way of Karbila, informed them of the change in His plan and of His consequent inability to fulfil His promise. He directed them to proceed to Isfahan and remain there until the receipt of further instructions. "Should it be deemed advisable," He added, "We shall request you to proceed to Shiraz; if not, tarry in Isfahan until such time as God may make known to you His will and guidance." The receipt of this unexpected intelligence created a considerable stir among those who had been eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Bab at Karbila. It agitated their minds and tested their loyalty. "What of His promise to us?" whispered a few of the discontented among them. "Does He regard the breaking of His pledge as the interposition of the will of God?" The others, unlike those waverers, became more steadfast in their faith and clung with added determination to the Cause. Faithful to their Master, they joyously responded to His invitation, ignoring entirely the criticisms and protestations of those who had faltered in their faith." p. 168. In Baha'u'llah's Writings there is a reference to badaa' in the Tablet of Visitation wherein it says:" the Beauty of the Unseen hath shone forth above the horizon of creation." The term translated as creation is literally badaa'. The most well-known reference to badaa' in the Writing is of course the story of Noah as given in the Iqan: "Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled.[dar har martabah Badaa' shod] This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise ["chera dar wa'deh haaye- Elaahee Badaa' shod"] which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? (KI: 7-8) Now, there are certain instances where the doctrine of badaa' does not apply. For instance when Shoghi Effendi insisted that the House of Baha'u'llah in Baghdad would be eventually rebuilt he stated: "dar in maqaam badaa hukmi nadaashteh wa nadaarad" "In this context the teaching of Badaa has not had nor will have a bearing..." warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retentio
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
> Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham > through Aghsán or Afnán lines? > > If the answer is ?yes?, then how can we sure He/She is? Dear Hasan, As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. > Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure > lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s > denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} > If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham > to be the seed of all Prophets? Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Abraham is probably a myth. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
> Possibly from past lines. > I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and > Aghsán. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Dear Susan, do you know any text on which the Central Figures or the Guardian mention the word badaa/badah? I would like to see the context/meaning of this word. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas > about 1000 or more years the next Coming.> > I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 > years) is broking that command.Dear Hasan, Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines? If the answer is yes, then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of siyyids denomination. If the answer is no, I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the seed of all Prophets? Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: Possibly from past lines. I dont think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, > that is why I ask about the impor! tance of "spiritual genes".Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. ! ; __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
Possibly from past lines. I don’t think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, > that is why I ask about the impor! tance of "spiritual genes".Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
> From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, > that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes". Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
to David B.
David, I think I never saw this letter, could you send it to bahai-library.com? Please contact the admin Jonah Winters. For my part I will save it immediately on my HDD. David Bowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BEIn 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply.David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines
Maybe I'm exaggerated about the importance of genetic lines, but I would like to follow the Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh genetic lines. From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes". [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: A scholar said me that in Tablets > not yet translated, Bahá'u'lláh links Mustaghath and its number > 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen > Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-> Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could > refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better > to us.Dear Hasan, I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these l! ines as well. > >> > It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic > concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic > concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá'u'lláh could claim > Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this > descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally > correct, then this "guardian" could be the Manifestation, or lead > us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: > "conjecture is conjecture".I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Cov! enant breakers, that seems unlikely. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
> Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas > about 1000 or more years the next Coming. > > I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 > years) is broking that command. Dear Hasan, Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
A scholar said me that in Tablets > not yet translated, Bahá'u'lláh links Mustaghath and its number > 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen > Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L- > Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could > refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better > to us. Dear Hasan, I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these lines as well. > >> > It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic > concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic > concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá'u'lláh could claim > Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this > descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally > correct, then this "guardian" could be the Manifestation, or lead > us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: > "conjecture is conjecture". I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Covenant breakers, that seems unlikely. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Dear Susan, Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas about 1000 or more years the next Coming. I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 years) is broking that command. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: > I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given > that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.Dear Tim, Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's questi! on is valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally bound not to follow any such claimant. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Hey David, this letter is splendid, thanks for quoting it here; you saved much much time quoting it!!! I hope many of us follow this noble action, quoting letters we receive from the House with absolute detachment. As to the letter, uhm... I have to read it, my english is not so good. David Bowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BEIn 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply.DavidMESSAGE:The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the eventual recognition of t! he next Manifestation of God by the Universal House of Justice. Regarding your request to be provided with a copy of a particular letter from the House of Justice to an individual believer in which this matter was addressed, regrettably we were not able to determine which of several letters written on this subject by the House of Justice, or by the Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the House of Justice, you were referring to. One such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below.With reference to infallibility, you quote from "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh" that "trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God...", and express concern that this implies that the Universal House of Justice will not recognize the next Manifestation of God.There are several statements in the Sacred Scriptures of our Faith which ! are related to this general subject, and one in particular is found in "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh", ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 117) as follows: "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion". When a National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf."...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain."As you see, the persecutions to which the next Manifestation will be subjected! will be carried out, according to the above statement, by "men of ill will" who, alas, "will continue to be in this world". There is nothing in the Writings to support the view that the opposition or persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice.You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the former Dispensation would have passed through its stages of growth and reached its zenith. You can be sure that the Supreme Institution of the Faith, "under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One", will exert every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead men to Him. How the majority of the people at that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's knowledge.We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject.Department of the Secretariat>The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as>any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years>before the next Manifestation. The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the>Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be>discovered. They are express. The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in>explicit verses. Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the>Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but>in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next>Manifestation. The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)>>Furthermore:>>Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is>de! prived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all>created things.> (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)>The information contained in this e-mail and any >attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the >Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is >intended to be confidential and for the use of >only the individual or entity named above. The >information may be protected by federal and >state privacy and disclosures acts or other >legal rules. If the reader of this message is >not the intended recipient, you are notified >that retention, dissemination, distribution or >copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this e-mail in error please >imme
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
> I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given > that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. Dear Tim, Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's question is valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally bound not to follow any such claimant. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or peharps 1511 or 2001. ;-} /// Hey Susan, good point, most of Shaykhs and Azalis (about Ghiyath 1511) confine the interpret! ation of their respective messianic prophecies into intrinsic numerological tricks to reject the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh respectively. A scholar said me that in Tablets not yet translated, Bahá’u’lláh links Mustaghath and its number 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better to us. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > The thing is that it is my understanding that the Guardian said > that there > will always be a Universal House of Justice. To my knowle! dge he didn't say that in any of his writings. And as far as his pilgrim's notes go, they presumed that the day would not be followed by night because a future Guardian could not fail to recognize the next Manifestation! /// It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá’u’lláh could claim Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally correct, then this “guardian” could be the Manifestation, or lead us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: “conjecture is conjecture”. Please, see this quote of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá: "My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a thousand years, no one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of Guardianship. "The Most Holy Book is the Book to which all peoples shall refer, and in it the Laws of God have been revealed. Laws not mentioned in the Book should be referred to the decision of the Universal House of Justice..." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BE In 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply. David MESSAGE: The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the eventual recognition of the next Manifestation of God by the Universal House of Justice. Regarding your request to be provided with a copy of a particular letter from the House of Justice to an individual believer in which this matter was addressed, regrettably we were not able to determine which of several letters written on this subject by the House of Justice, or by the Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the House of Justice, you were referring to. One such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below. With reference to infallibility, you quote from "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh" that "trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God...", and express concern that this implies that the Universal House of Justice will not recognize the next Manifestation of God. There are several statements in the Sacred Scriptures of our Faith which are related to this general subject, and one in particular is found in "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh", ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 117) as follows: "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion". When a National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf. "...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain." As you see, the persecutions to which the next Manifestation will be subjected will be carried out, according to the above statement, by "men of ill will" who, alas, "will continue to be in this world". There is nothing in the Writings to support the view that the opposition or persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice. You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the former Dispensation would have passed through its stages of growth and reached its zenith. You can be sure that the Supreme Institution of the Faith, "under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One", will exert every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead men to Him. How the majority of the people at that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's knowledge. We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject. Department of the Secretariat The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years before the next Manifestation. The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be discovered. They are express. The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in explicit verses. Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next Manifestation. The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132) Furthermore: Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Comm
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. Hi Tim, To talk about Four and Seven Valleys, doesn’t actually means that any of us could reach the last valleys? (At least not me!!!) Or Church-State issue, or future International Tribunal, Commonwealth, Most Great Peace, etc., etc. Anyway, I understand your point, but we can teach our future generations to be prepared in exactly 1000 years counting from the Blessed Beauty’s Revelation which according to our Writing had place in the Black Pit (1852-53). Also, this topic is not completely off-time, why? Because time pass quickly! lol. Because it is a part of the Covenant, my understanding of “that not followed by night” is that though “winter” doesn’t have a place in! this Day, that could be exactly the reason people would think they don’t need a Prophet and therefore will reject Him/Her. Let’s take a look to these quotes: http://bahai-library.com/compilations/covenant.html About the importance of acceptance the Prophets: The Lord of the universe hath never raised up a prophet nor hath He sent down a Book unless He hath established His covenant with all men, calling for their acceptance of the next Revelation and of the next Book; inasmuch as the outpourings of His bounty are ceaseless and without limit. ("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", [rev. ed.] (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), p. 87) Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá'u'lláh, and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá'u'lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. That Manifestation is Bahá'u'lláh's Promised One, and will appear after a thousand or thousands of years. He, moreover, with His Supreme Pen, entered into a great Covenant and Testament with all the Bahá'ís whereby they were all commanded to follow the Centre of the Covenant after His ascension, and depart, not even to a hair's breadth, from obeying Him. ('Abdu'l-Bahá, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian, published in "Bahá'í World Faith" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1976), p. About the next Prophet: Verily God will raise up Him Whom God shall make manifest, and after Him Whomsoever He willeth, even as He hath raised up prophets before the Point of the Bayán. He in truth hath power over all things. ("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", p. 144) Concerning the Manifestations that will come down in the future "in the shadows of the clouds," know, verily, that in so far as their relation to the Source of their inspiration is concerned, they are under the shadow of the Ancient Beauty. In their relation, however, to the age in which they appear, each and every one of them "doeth whatsoever He willeth." ('Abdu'l-Bahá, cited in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh - Selected Letters", p. 167) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. If in a discussion, someone raises the possibility that the House of Justice might lose its infallibility after the thousand years have passed, how does that thought affect our attitude toward the Universal House of Justice now? In 90 years or less, everyone now on this email list will have left this world, therefore, what is the reason for discussing this? We will never know the answer, except perhape from the next worlds. Tim Do you Yahoo!? With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?
>the Covenant was also crystal clear about a continuing line of Guardians, so I don't think that really addresses Hasan's question about badaa. < The Will and Testament is clear about how future Guardians were to be chosen, but that document does not guarantee that there will always be a living Guardian. The Will also doesn't guarantee there will always be a Universal House of Justice. However, even if that institution ceased to exist, for some reason, the NSA's of the world could elect another one. Because of that, I think it's likely we will always have a Universal House of Justice, at least until the next Manifestation comes. Tim Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me
Fascinating thread -speculating on the next Manifestation "...ere the expiration of a full thousand years, ..." Assuming the human race advances to the consensus that Earth is "but one country and mankind it's citizens"; and indeed the Province of Almighty God; it does not seem unreasonable that they would accept a female Manifestation. It seems to me that one potentially inherent characteristic of such a degree of unity would be a sense of superiority - reveling in their achievement. And in consideration of the technological and scientific advances that will assuredly occur over the course of a thousand years, by the Grace of God and the enlightenment of the peoples of Earth; the physical appearance of "...Him Who will be sent down..." could be the greatest test and spiritual challenge to the devout - if He were not an "Earthling". Just my thoughts... Sandra The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu