Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
On 7/13/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto, you wrote:
Could you specify how they [Bahai notions of the Manifestations being divine
and human and Christian notions of Jesus being divine and human] are
actually different? Is there some specific element of Bahai teaching which
isn't found in Christianity? Or vice versa?
Hassan:
1) One of the fundamental teachings of the Bahá'í Faith is that God does not
incarnate himself:
"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His
Essence and reveal it unto men". (*)
{other similar quotes deleted}
From my side, there is also a whole larger picture. It's not like the
above verse is the only thing which the Bahai faith has to say on the
subject.
There are passages like the above in the Bahai writings which you can
use if you are explaining the issue to a Muslim.
But if a Bahai were talking to a Christian they could quote Shoghi
Effendi's statement that the sonship and divinity of Jesus is to be
fearlessly asserted.
And if they were talking to a Hindu, they say that a Manifestation is
the same as an Avatar (which actually does suggest incarnation).
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol5/indiabf.htm
It's like the Bahais really follow Paul's teaching of trying to be all
things to all people.
If a Bahai speaks one-on-one with a person of a specific religion it
is possible to use selective parts of the writings to radically
emphasize similarities. But if one tries to look at the "big picture"
of what is taught, it seems to be contradictory.
This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more
than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together
under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear.
(*) Gleanings 20. The concept of incarnation (ulúl) has been decidedly
rejected by Bahá'u'lláh (see also Kitáb-i-Íqán 104 (p. 98)).
But if it has been so decidedly rejected, why would Bahais in India
present Bahaullah as an Avatar?
-Gilberto
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
I understood from what Gilberto wrote: Intro: "From my side, there is also a whole larger picture." 1. "There are passages like the above in the Bahai writings which you canuse if you are explaining the issue to a Muslim."2. "...if Bahai were talking to a Christian they could quote ShoghiEffendi's statement that the sonship and divinity of Jesus is to befearlessly asserted."3. "...if they were talking to a Hindu, they say that a Manifestation isthe same as an Avatar..."4. "Bahais [speaking] one-on-one with a person of a specific religion [can use] selective parts of the writings to radically emphasize similarities. Conclusion: "But if one tries to look at the "big picture" of what is taught, it seems to be contradictory.""...Bahais value unity more than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together
under the Administrative Order..."Hi Gilberto, great question! I think you make a neat observation... it *does* seem contradictory at first glance. But note Baha'i authoritative writings only use the *words* that Christians and Hindus use, but our definitions of those concepts are different. I think you will agree that words should not become barriers to truth.
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
Dear Gilberto,
I have often read your questions and the various answers by Baha'is. I find
that whatever answer you receive you are never satisfied and yet you still
enquire and persist. This denotes great perseverance and struggle. Please
tell me why you persist?
- Original Message -
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
On 7/13/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto, you wrote:
Could you specify how they [Bahai notions of the Manifestations being
divine
and human and Christian notions of Jesus being divine and human] are
actually different? Is there some specific element of Bahai teaching which
isn't found in Christianity? Or vice versa?
Hassan:
1) One of the fundamental teachings of the Bahá'í Faith is that God does
not
incarnate himself:
"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His
Essence and reveal it unto men". (*)
{other similar quotes deleted}
From my side, there is also a whole larger picture. It's not like the
above verse is the only thing which the Bahai faith has to say on the
subject.
There are passages like the above in the Bahai writings which you can
use if you are explaining the issue to a Muslim.
But if a Bahai were talking to a Christian they could quote Shoghi
Effendi's statement that the sonship and divinity of Jesus is to be
fearlessly asserted.
And if they were talking to a Hindu, they say that a Manifestation is
the same as an Avatar (which actually does suggest incarnation).
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol5/indiabf.htm
It's like the Bahais really follow Paul's teaching of trying to be all
things to all people.
If a Bahai speaks one-on-one with a person of a specific religion it
is possible to use selective parts of the writings to radically
emphasize similarities. But if one tries to look at the "big picture"
of what is taught, it seems to be contradictory.
This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more
than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together
under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear.
(*) Gleanings 20. The concept of incarnation (ulúl) has been decidedly
rejected by Bahá'u'lláh (see also Kitáb-i-Íqán 104 (p. 98)).
But if it has been so decidedly rejected, why would Bahais in India
present Bahaullah as an Avatar?
-Gilberto
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
On 7/13/06, Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Gilberto, great question! I think you make a neat observation... it
*does* seem contradictory at first glance. But note Baha'i authoritative
writings only use the *words* that Christians and Hindus use, but our
definitions of those concepts are different.
That sounds like in a very intellectual and philosophical way you are
just crossing your fingers (If you understand the expression). Or to
put it differently... if you are using the words that Christians and
Hindus use and you seem to be taking advantage of the fact that these
terms are familiar to your audience, and you would be encouraging them
to have a false impression of what Bahais really believe.
What was really bizzare is reading about how Bahais in Hindu areas,
would refer to Bhagvan Baha to avoid the Islamic associations. And
using the term "avatar" will certainly encourage the people of a Hindu
background to think that the Manifestations are actually incarnations.
I think you will agree that
words should not become barriers to truth.
What's the underlying truth?
-G
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
Gilberto: ...if you are using the words that Christians andHindus use and you seem to be taking advantage of the fact that theseterms are familiar to your audience, and you would be encouraging themto have a false impression of what Bahais really believe. Me: Hi Gilberto, If it just stopped there people would have wrong impressions, I think you are right. (People have to pick up the Book, Revelation of Baha'u'llah, and read the writings for themselves to realize and learn that the term 'Avatar' or 'Son of God' does not really mean that God is incarnated in human beings -- that God's Essence is beyond its creation.) Gilberto: What was really bizzare is reading about how Bahais in Hindu areas,would refer to Bhagvan Baha to avoid the
Islamic associations. Andusing the term "avatar" will certainly encourage the people of a Hindubackground to think that the Manifestations are actually incarnations. Me: Yeah, its pretty neat how we are encouraged to speak to the people in their own languages, because by initially bringing up Muslim subjects, unnecessary barriers are brought up for the people. They were born up in their particular traditions, and their society is based on those traditions, be it Christianity or Hinduism. And even the Quran tells us that each nation was given its own Messenger, so their societies (Christian or Hindu) are ultimately based on the Messenger of God, and is essentially good. Gilberto:What's the underlying truth?Me: Lets read Shoghi Effendi, Abdu'l-Baha, and Baha'u'llah to answer that together.
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God and the Manifestations (was: delivering wives in Bible texts
Hi Gilberto, >I'm not sure how that relates to explaining how Christianity and the Bahai Faith are >similar or different in terms of Jesus and the Manifestations. Most Christians believe that Jesus was literally, physically, the same as God. The Gospels do not support that belief, in my view, nevertheless, Christians hold that Jesus was the Divine Essence in the flesh. The Baha'i authoritative writings explicitly deny that God can incarnate Himself. "Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God -- " (Shoghi
Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 112) Tim Nolan
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Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, >This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more>than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together>under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear. Real unity must be based on truth, in my opinion. True unity cannot have a foundation of dishonesty. The Baha'i writings do not encourage us to say whatever people want to hear. Those writings do instruct us to speak kindly, to use mild words at first, and not to state things - at first - which are too challenging to people. Of course, if a person expresses belief in Baha'u'llah and wants to join the Baha'i community, then there are certain basic principles they must accept. But there is no need to challenge people too severely in the beginning of a relationship. Abdu'l Baha is our
perfect exemplar of how to teach the Baha'i Faith. When He traveled in North America, in 1912, he told a synagogue full of Jews that they ought to accept the truth of Jesus and of Muhammad. Do you think that is what the Jewish people wanted to hear? He told Americans that black and white people are one family, that they should live together as friends, and they should even marry one another. That's not novel today, but in 1912, that was shocking. The Baha'i teachings say we should be truthful, but kind and loving at the same time. Tim Nolan
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> On 7/13/06, Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > I think you will agree that
> > words should not become barriers to truth.
>
> What's the underlying truth?
>
>
> -G
>
>
---
Ah! The eternal question. Reminds you of the question Pontius Pilate asked
from Jesus Christ.
What, in your opinion Gilberto, is the truth?
Warm regards,
Iskandar
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Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
Dear Michael,
I'm interested in religion in general and certain aspects of the Bahai
faith are intriguing. When I have conversations about religion I
generally don't have the expectation of converting the other person or
of being converted, at least my "satisfaction" doesn't depend on that.
I think whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing about a particular
point, I think we still learn from that process.
-G
On 7/13/06, Michael Alcorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Gilberto,
I have often read your questions and the various answers by Baha'is. I find
that whatever answer you receive you are never satisfied and yet you still
enquire and persist. This denotes great perseverance and struggle. Please
tell me why you persist?
- Original Message -
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: delivering wives in Bible texts
On 7/13/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto, you wrote:
> Could you specify how they [Bahai notions of the Manifestations being
> divine
> and human and Christian notions of Jesus being divine and human] are
> actually different? Is there some specific element of Bahai teaching which
> isn't found in Christianity? Or vice versa?
Hassan:
> 1) One of the fundamental teachings of the Bahá'í Faith is that God does
> not
> incarnate himself:
> "Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His
> Essence and reveal it unto men". (*)
{other similar quotes deleted}
From my side, there is also a whole larger picture. It's not like the
above verse is the only thing which the Bahai faith has to say on the
subject.
There are passages like the above in the Bahai writings which you can
use if you are explaining the issue to a Muslim.
But if a Bahai were talking to a Christian they could quote Shoghi
Effendi's statement that the sonship and divinity of Jesus is to be
fearlessly asserted.
And if they were talking to a Hindu, they say that a Manifestation is
the same as an Avatar (which actually does suggest incarnation).
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol5/indiabf.htm
It's like the Bahais really follow Paul's teaching of trying to be all
things to all people.
If a Bahai speaks one-on-one with a person of a specific religion it
is possible to use selective parts of the writings to radically
emphasize similarities. But if one tries to look at the "big picture"
of what is taught, it seems to be contradictory.
This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more
than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together
under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear.
> (*) Gleanings 20. The concept of incarnation (ulúl) has been decidedly
> rejected by Bahá'u'lláh (see also Kitáb-i-Íqán 104 (p. 98)).
But if it has been so decidedly rejected, why would Bahais in India
present Bahaullah as an Avatar?
-Gilberto
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