Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
> Susan, none of what you mention in the above is of concern to me,
Dear Ron,
That's why you need to be more specific.
I have since become aware that many Baha'is
> seem to hold very different views, and instead see it as necessary that the
> Baha'i Faith eliminate all other religions eventually. I
I don't think it is necessary for the Baha'i Faith to eliminate all
other religions. Does that answer your question?
warmest, Susan
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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Iskandar Hai wrote:
Dear Rich:
Actually, `Abdu'l-Baha did not reverse Himself; it's rather
straightforward if you follow it rather carefully. Here is the thing: as
you know, `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's "mind" not
just the Writings of Baha'u'llah; so, `Abdu'l-Baha tells Baha'is that
Baha'u'llah didn't allow bigamy. Then the Covenant-breakers use this as
an excuse to malign Him by misrepresenting what He says as abrogating
what to them was the explicit Text of the Aqdas. Then, `Abdu'l-Baha
explains that, no, He is not abrogating the Aqdas, that no one in this
Dispensation has the authority to abrogate the Aqdas, that He is
interpreting the intent of Aqdas, etc., etc., etc. `Abdu'l-Baha, and
only `Abdul-Baha, can do this because He is the Interpreter of the
"mind" of Baha'u'llah and only `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of the
Baha'u'llah's mind.
Good wishes,
Iskandar
Iskander,
Bless you. This helps a great deal, it also illustrates why more of us
need to learn Arabic and Persian to further our understanding. We can't
wait for others to translate everything.
Thank you, Rich
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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Susan Maneck wrote:
Personally I don't want to read other people's commentary when I can't
read the original text.
But we do have the text.
Dear Rich,
Amr va Khalq is a compilation with a lot of commentary. I'd much
prefer to see texts translated in their entirety so we can read them
within context.
Dear Susan,
I'm aware of what Amr va Khalq is. I only ask why not translate the
portions that are relevant to texts that we have in English. I agree
about having more of the Sacred Texts translated, which brings up the
question of the Bayan, and I understand the short supply of able
translators, but I still wonder if comentary might help. There is
precedent for translating parts of the Writings, after all that is what
Gleanings is and we do use the letters of the Guardian and the House to
clarify scripture. I am in agreement, by the way, that the text can only
be understand in the light od Abdul-Baha, the Guardian, and the House. I
asked about the Guardians comments on monogamy so I could peruse them
and increase my understanding.
By the by, can I get a copy of the Amr va Khalq, I'd love to try to pick
through it.
"Certain laws, such as fasting, obligatory prayers, the consent of
the parents before marriage, avoidance of alcoholic drinks,
monogamy, should be regarded by all believers as universally and
vitally applicable at the present time."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 341)
The above is a perfect example, it helps me to understand the law. Why
is it okay to have this commentary, but not others. I know this one
didn't need translating. Zakat has also been mentioned as being
continued by Baha'u'llah, I'd love to know more than I do about how it
is interpreted by the various schools of Islam, I understand that before
we can incorporate it the House will have to set it's own rules as to
how it is applied.
Also, on a different topic, can you recommend any good books on the
Chistiyya and the Naqshibandi?
Rich
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Re: Translation of quote in French please...
Is the following quote from Einstein? How is it in German?
regards,
Firouz
> There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a
> miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle
>
> But I think the French is more elegant
>
>
>> "Il existe deux facons de vivre ta vie. Tu peux penser que las
>> miracles n'existent pas. Mais tu peux penser que tout est un miracle."
>>
>
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn
> ***
> In reality, the radiant, pure hearts are the Mashrak-el-Azcar
>and from them the voice of supplication and
> invocation continually reacheth the Supreme Concourse.
> Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas, p. 678
> --
>
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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Dear Susan, You wrote: Dear Ron, > > You'll need to be a bit more specific about which of Sen's opinions > you are talking about. My problem with Sen's views largely concerns > the fact that he so often ignores the authoritative interpretations of > the Guardian (especially if they are conveyed by his secretary) and > the elucidations of the House. This is what I think he is doing in > promoting bigamy as an option. > Susan, none of what you mention in the above is of concern to me, I just thought that the (admittedly rather long) part of Sen's message that I posted, and will post again below at the end of this email, is a particularly well stated version of how I understand Baha'u'llah's Writings to say we should view the future of relationships between religions and the evolution of religion in the future. This is part of the reason I was attracted to join the Faith, the hope that the Baha'i Faith could help foster peace and cooperation and genuine love and respect between all the major religious people on earth. I have since become aware that many Baha'is seem to hold very different views, and instead see it as necessary that the Baha'i Faith eliminate all other religions eventually. I see that as just making us yet another one of the squabbling religions on earth fighting for supremacy. Just my view, of course! So, I wondered if you and others on the list would see anything particularly disturbing about the quote from Sen I will repeat below. It does matter, in my opinion, whether knowledgeable Baha'is think my views and understandings, the very ones that caused me to declare, are within acceptable norms or not. I have no desire to be a Baha'i whose views are contrary to what normative Baha'is are striving to achieve. If Baha'is are removed from the rolls because of their beliefs, then I don't want to feel that the only reason I am not being disenrolled is because I am not prominent or important enough to be disenrolled. I would like to know whether my beliefs are within acceptable norms. Now, I am not knowledgeable about Sen's history and I have no desire to research it. But since it is public knowledge that he has been forcibly removed from the rolls, that makes it impossible to ignore that fact. When I see him write what I see as a beautiful, insightful message about some of the things perplexing and worrying me, that makes me feel good, but then possibly bad, because now I am finding beauty and agreement with someone who has been removed from the rolls! I was not asking for a blanket endorsement of his views at all, just a comment on the passage I quote below. Also, you did not repsond to my original post that began this thread. I would still like to hear your response to that. Your opinion matters to me, even though I don't alwasy agree with you. I sort of considser you to be the most "conservative" or most literal minded Baha'i On the other hand, if yopu don't want to repsodsdn to my original post or to my request for comments about the portion of Sen's resposne that I am re-quotign below, I will certainly understand. Ron See the portion of Sen's reply I am referring to below: Sen wrote First, I don't think that the Writings are the "proof" of the Bahai Faith, in the way that the Quran is the "proof" for Islam, the rapid revelation of verses is a proof for Babism, and the Bible is used as a proof in some forms of Protestant Christianity. Baha'u'llah writes ""The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to - Show quoted text - recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed ... " (Gleanings p. 105) and ""Write: 'Hast thou not heard that My proof is My Essence, My evidence My person, and My argument My Manifestation? While that which hath proceeded from My pen is a path leading unto My recognition, ... My proof hath been the manifestations of My power, which have encompassed all who are in heaven and on earth. I have appointed Divine Verses as a path leading unto My recognition, as a bounty from Our presence unto both worlds." (Ma'idah al Ismani vol 4 p 93, trans. Ahang Rabbani). Thus the text itself is a 3rd-order revelation, which can lead us to the Revelation and Self of the Manifestation. Bahai theology generally needs a course correction here I think: it has been too much influenced by the Muslim, Protestant and Babi models. - Show quoted text - Second, I think you are quite right that not everyone must choose to become Bahais. The Bahai Faith does have a fuller measure of revelation, but that does not mean other religions are simply switched off from the 'voltage' of the Holy Spirit. God's way has been to work through successive revelations at long intervals, but also to keep inspiring previous religions for thousands of years. Shoghi Effendi writes: Such institutions as have strayed far from the spirit and teachings of Jesus Ch
RE: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
sonja
you don't have to apologise to me, but rather maybe i should apologise to you
all here... i have become overly sensitive lately after having been long abused
by many foisting their own pov on me as tho their particular bit of insite is
more sacred than Something else..
if Sen is no longer an enrolled Baha'i then he is the same as any other
individual that is not a member of the Baha'i faith, excepting that he may have
more knowledge "of" than the average person who is not a member of the Faith.
no big deal for any but Sen, in any caseand i see that some privacy has
been maintained as the letter provided does not address Sen specifically in any
manner.it obviously was not the letter that states dis-enrollment or the
reason for the action, but rather a blanket statement about specific issues.
for some reason i am pleased to hear that some level of privacy was maintained
in the process of this whole issuebut that is my stuff and has nothing to
do with anyone else.
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:48:02 +0100
> Subject: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
>
> from sonja:
> My apologies to maidenleaf and anyone else on this list. My response
> to Susan was in an attempt to correct a misrepresentation, nothing
> more.
>
> > the position that the person writing it has made the "correct"
> > representation of what the House stated and the other person has
> > misrepresented the specific statement from the House.both are
> > saying i'm right and you are not, you both might as well toss a coin,
>
> My point was that the Universial House of Justice did not remove Sen
> for any of the 'reasons' Susan has given in her posting. I am
> certainly not interested in winning any argument with Susan, so my
> apologies to the list if anyone if anyone thought that this was my
> intention.
>
> I was not saying what the Universal House of Justice's reasons were
> for disenrolling Sen. I am not a spokesperson for them, so I would
> not. Neither has Sen.
>
> I do not wish to upset anyone on this list.
> So I'll ignore any further claims Susan makes.
>
> In the same spirit Sen is not going to respond to Susan's selective
> quotations she just posted unless someone on the list is interested
> what he really wrote.
>
> thanks for your response,
>
> Sonja
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
> notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
> e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
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Re: Questions on the Aqdas
Sen, I understood your point to be that since the Bayan permitted bigamy for a childless couple, the Baha'i Faith does also; and that the Master did not ultimately come down on the matter specifying monogamy. I may have misunderstood. I really am all in favor of analysis of the teachings and using our rational faculties. What I didn't see in your approach using the Bayan, was using the guidance of the Guardian and the House; and a conclusion that, using the Bayan, maybe there are circumstances when monogamy is not the Baha'i law. That the laws in the Bayan are closely connected with the laws in the Aqdas is clear, and is explicit in one of the quotes I provided from the House of Justice from the Introduction to the Aqdas. My personal understanding is that only when Baha'u'llah specifically endorses a law from a previous Dispensation, such as the Zakat and the Qur'an, or the Badi Calendar established by the Bab, or the specification of the Qiblih, is parsing of the specific wording from the prior Book appropriate. My impression is that Baha'u'llah's endorsement of the law of the Qiblih in the Bayan was explicit and not implicit, as was His endorsement of the Quranic law of the Zakat; and since He accepted these laws by reference, then it's appropriate to do a close analysis of the wording in the Quran and Bayan. It's further my impression that the House has always identified this in the Notes to the Aqdas where appropriate; and that for other laws of the Aqdas having Babi or Muslim antecedents what is in the Bayan and Qur'an is interesting, but not binding, and not determinative of the meaning of the verse in the Aqdas. As to the source of the provision that two witnesses must witness the marriage vow, perhaps instead of the source of this being an implicit importing of the law from the Bayan, this is an extension of the verse in the Aqdas that two reliable witnesses must witness the beginning and end of the year of patience (Q&A 73), and also the end of a marriage by the death of a spouse, (K67). Since Baha'u'llah also states in the Aqdas that the "justness" of witnesses is not dependent on their being Baha'is (Q&A 79), this may also be the source of the House of Justice' statement that the witnesses to a Baha'i marriage need not be Baha'is. So the law Baha'u'llah specifies for the end of the marriage is also applied to the beginning of the marriage. Maybe that's it. Brent Sen & Sonja wrote: On 2 Jan 2008 at 6:23, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote: However, I have never seen either the Guardian or the House of Justice perform an analysis of the law of the Bab, to determine what the meaning of a law of Baha'u'llah was. This is a good point, but then, there are only a few places where Shoghi Effendi closely analyses texts from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l- Baha to determine what the Bahai law is. The electoral law is one case, certainly, (Bahai Administration, p. 41) but there are not many like it. And in that case, he makes whatever he advises for the NSA subject to later review and alteration by the Universal House of Justice. The sparcity of examples of legal reasoning based on the Bayan -- or the Bahai writings -- is in part because the Guardian considered the making of Bahai laws to fall in the UHJ's sphere, not the Guardian's: Though the Guardian of the Faith has been made the permanent head of so august a body he can never, even temporarily, assume the right of exclusive legislation. (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 149) However what about the law of the Qiblih? The law and its explanation are given in the Persian Bayan, and more briefly in the Arabic Bayan. The obligatory prayer says to "turn to God" and the Q&A explains this means the Qiblih, and the Aqdas says that after his death we should turn to the spot God has made the centre -- but what text tells us that the Qiblih is wherever the Manifestation is, during his life, and his burial place after death? Isn't it the Bayan (in Persian Bayan 5:1 for example)? It seems that Baha'u'llah, the Master, Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ all refer to the Bayan, directly or indirectly. It is true there is no extended argumentation on the point, but this is not needed: it is such a simple matter. Shoghi Effendi writes that, in the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah "'fixes the Qiblih" God Passes By, p. 214). If we look for a verse in the Aqdas that says where the Qiblih is, all we find is "turn your faces towards the Spot that We have ordained for you." Yet for Shoghi Effendi, this is 'fixing the Qiblih' -- and I think this is because the two texts and two systems of law are so intertwined, in Shoghi Effendi's thinking, that he sees nothing odd about saying something is in the Aqdas when in fact it is in the Bayan. This is exactly analogous to the way I read the law on monogamy: Shoghi Effendi says it is prescribed in the Aqdas, but the actual text is found in the Bayan (and it prescribe
Re: Questions on the Aqdas
> This is a good point, but then, there are only a few places where
> Shoghi Effendi closely analyses texts from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-
> Baha to determine what the Bahai law is. The electoral law is one
> case, certainly, (Bahai Administration, p. 41)
Huh? I don't see any analysis of any text by Abdu'l-Baha or
Baha'u'llah whatsoever on that page.
And in that case, he makes whatever he advises for the NSA
> subject to later review and alteration by the Universal House of
> Justice.
Yes, which suggests he was not analyzing a text at all in this case,
he was setting a policy subject to change by the elected institutions.
The sparcity of examples of legal reasoning based on the
> Bayan -- or the Bahai writings -- is in part because the Guardian
> considered the making of Bahai laws to fall in the UHJ's sphere, not
> the Guardian's:
It is true that for the most part the Guardian leaves legal deductions
to the Universal House of Justice. But there are a few instances where
he makes authoritative interpretations on matters of law. Examples of
this would be the exclusion of women from the House of Justice, his
interpretations of the teachings in regards to homosexuality, etc.
These are not matters which the House of Justice is empowered to
change as they themselves have attested.
> What I have tried to answer is the question which, logically, has to
> come next: just *how* does the Aqdas prescribe monogamy, when the
> text apparently allows two wives and Abdu'l-Baha has specifically
> said that he has not changed this law?
And goes on to say in other Tablets that Baha'u'llah prescribed
monogamy all along!
> I think that the Aqdas prescribes monogamy by means of an abbreviated
> reference to the Bayanic law. That's just my explanation, but is
> there any other explanation available? Some people will just believe
> "without asking how or why", and that's well and good for them. Most
> people have a critical rational faculty. They look at what Shoghi
> Effendi says in God Passes by, and compare it to the text of the
> Aqdas, and they get mightily puzzled. Such puzzles in moderation are
> an intellectual stimulus, but they can also be a real test of faith
> for many. My providing an intellectual answer to the puzzle should
> not be read as an attack on the "faith" solution: faith and reason
> are complements, not competitors.
That's really not the issue. If your analysis was limited to figuring
out what is going on in the text themselves there would be no
objection. But you are using your personal interpretation to promote
the notion of bigamy, surrogate motherhood, sperm donation, etc. as a
Baha'i teaching in contradiction to what both the Guardian and the
House have said on such matters. At that point it becomes much more
than an intellectual exercise.
Susan
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from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
from sonja:
My apologies to maidenleaf and anyone else on this list. My response
to Susan was in an attempt to correct a misrepresentation, nothing
more.
> the position that the person writing it has made the "correct"
> representation of what the House stated and the other person has
> misrepresented the specific statement from the House.both are
> saying i'm right and you are not, you both might as well toss a coin,
My point was that the Universial House of Justice did not remove Sen
for any of the 'reasons' Susan has given in her posting. I am
certainly not interested in winning any argument with Susan, so my
apologies to the list if anyone if anyone thought that this was my
intention.
I was not saying what the Universal House of Justice's reasons were
for disenrolling Sen. I am not a spokesperson for them, so I would
not. Neither has Sen.
I do not wish to upset anyone on this list.
So I'll ignore any further claims Susan makes.
In the same spirit Sen is not going to respond to Susan's selective
quotations she just posted unless someone on the list is interested
what he really wrote.
thanks for your response,
Sonja
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RE: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Susan, thank you...however, i have not changed my position with the additional information that you have provided...i suspect that the House has reasons for addressing that letter to the National Assemblies...reasons that i am not privy too, as i am not a member of either the House of Justice that sent the letter or any National Assembly that received it, nor am i Sen, whose position and standing within the Baha'i Faith has been affected by it...nor do i take an interest in it...it's none of my business actually. others have their own reasons for diseminating such information on the internet. the issue of privacy, is something else again, and seems to be a foregone conclusion that it is non-existant, the reasons for/against maintaining privacy tho are not clearonce again, none of those reasons are any of my business either, or are they relevant to me in any manner the resolution of this matter rests with Sen and the House of Justice...in any case...i believe that that is a given...if i am mistaken in that fact...i will listen to any information that any can provide to clarify the matter for me. thank you. > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:51:01 -0600 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Subject: Re: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions > > > i could think of a good reason, unless the House has openly stated that a > > particular individual is the spokesperson for the House, the person speaking > > for the House is speaking out of turnas well, whatever the resaons are > > they are between Sen and the House, should Sen wish to reveal the resaons to > > either friend or foe.that would be within his right...that still does > > not change the reality that whatever the relationship between Sen and the > > House ISthe relationship is still between Sen and the House...like a > > marriage. > > third parties like children can side with one party or another for whatever > > reasonbut it doesnt alter the reality one bit. > > Dear Maidenleaf, > > If there was any private communication between Sen and the House it > was some years ago and he has chosen to disclose its contents, which > is his right. To my knowledge they have not communicated with him > directly in recent years. Their decision to remove Sen from the rolls > was conveyed to him through the NSA of the Netherlands. Likewise their > statement regarding Sen's book was made publicly, not privately. In > short, if the House wished this to remain a private matter between it > and Sen McGlinn, they would not have publicized it by sending this > letter to the all of the National Spiritual Assemblies: > > > 14 November 2005 > > Transmitted by email > > To all National Spiritual Assemblies > > > Dear Bahá'í Friends, > > Recently, questions have arisen which have prompted the Universal House > of Justice to comment further on matters treated in the compilation > "Issues Related to the Study of the Bahá'í Faith". > > The Bahá'í principle calling for investigation of reality encourages an > unfettered search for knowledge and truth by whoever wishes to engage > in it. When applied to the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, it inevitably > gives rise to a wide range of responses. Some, attracted to the > Message, embrace the Cause as their own. Some may respond positively to > certain precepts or principles and willingly collaborate toward shared > aims. Some may find it to be an interesting social phenomenon worthy of > study. Still others, content with their own beliefs, may reject its > claims. Bahá'ís are taught to be respectful of the views of others, > believing that conscience should not be coerced. > > Upon becoming a Bahá'í, one accepts certain fundamental beliefs; but > invariably one's knowledge of the Teachings is limited and often mixed > with personal ideas. Shoghi Effendi explains that "an exact and > thorough comprehension of so vast a system, so sublime a revelation, so > sacred a trust, is for obvious reasons beyond the reach and ken of our > finite minds." Over time, through study, prayerful reflection, and an > effort to live a Bahá'í life, immature ideas yield to a more profound > understanding of Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. Service to the Cause plays a > particular role in the process, for the meaning of the Text is > clarified as one translates insights into effective action. As a matter > of principle, individual understanding or interpretation should not be > suppressed, but valued for whatever contribution it can make to the > discourse of the Bahá'í community. Nor should it, through dogmatic > insistence of the individual, be allowed to bring about disputes and > arguments among the friends; personal opinion must always be > distinguished from the explicit Text and its authoritative > interpretation by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi and from the > elucidations of the Universal House of Justice on "problems which have > caused difference, questions that are obscure and matt
Questions on the Aqdas
On 2 Jan 2008 at 6:23, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote: > However, I have never seen either the Guardian or the House of Justice > perform an analysis of the law of the Bab, to determine what the > meaning of a law of Baha'u'llah was. This is a good point, but then, there are only a few places where Shoghi Effendi closely analyses texts from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l- Baha to determine what the Bahai law is. The electoral law is one case, certainly, (Bahai Administration, p. 41) but there are not many like it. And in that case, he makes whatever he advises for the NSA subject to later review and alteration by the Universal House of Justice. The sparcity of examples of legal reasoning based on the Bayan -- or the Bahai writings -- is in part because the Guardian considered the making of Bahai laws to fall in the UHJ's sphere, not the Guardian's: Though the Guardian of the Faith has been made the permanent head of so august a body he can never, even temporarily, assume the right of exclusive legislation. (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 149) However what about the law of the Qiblih? The law and its explanation are given in the Persian Bayan, and more briefly in the Arabic Bayan. The obligatory prayer says to "turn to God" and the Q&A explains this means the Qiblih, and the Aqdas says that after his death we should turn to the spot God has made the centre -- but what text tells us that the Qiblih is wherever the Manifestation is, during his life, and his burial place after death? Isn't it the Bayan (in Persian Bayan 5:1 for example)? It seems that Baha'u'llah, the Master, Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ all refer to the Bayan, directly or indirectly. It is true there is no extended argumentation on the point, but this is not needed: it is such a simple matter. Shoghi Effendi writes that, in the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah "'fixes the Qiblih" God Passes By, p. 214). If we look for a verse in the Aqdas that says where the Qiblih is, all we find is "turn your faces towards the Spot that We have ordained for you." Yet for Shoghi Effendi, this is 'fixing the Qiblih' -- and I think this is because the two texts and two systems of law are so intertwined, in Shoghi Effendi's thinking, that he sees nothing odd about saying something is in the Aqdas when in fact it is in the Bayan. This is exactly analogous to the way I read the law on monogamy: Shoghi Effendi says it is prescribed in the Aqdas, but the actual text is found in the Bayan (and it prescribes monogamy not in so many words but rather by delimiting one permissible exception). > I think that despite the Tablets Sen has quoted from the Master, the > entire issue of bigamy is settled by the Guardian's statement that the > Aqdas prescribes monogamy, I am not arguing with this !! Not one jot or tittle. I accept it 101% and more. What I have tried to answer is the question which, logically, has to come next: just *how* does the Aqdas prescribe monogamy, when the text apparently allows two wives and Abdu'l-Baha has specifically said that he has not changed this law? Answering this question does not detract at all from the fact that what Shoghi Effendi says is an authoritative interpretation. I think that the Aqdas prescribes monogamy by means of an abbreviated reference to the Bayanic law. That's just my explanation, but is there any other explanation available? Some people will just believe "without asking how or why", and that's well and good for them. Most people have a critical rational faculty. They look at what Shoghi Effendi says in God Passes by, and compare it to the text of the Aqdas, and they get mightily puzzled. Such puzzles in moderation are an intellectual stimulus, but they can also be a real test of faith for many. My providing an intellectual answer to the puzzle should not be read as an attack on the "faith" solution: faith and reason are complements, not competitors. As for whether the UHJ ever uses the Bayan to get a fuller understanding of what the Bahai law is, the simple thing to do would be to ask them. I can think of one example that goes even further back: to the Quran. In Islamic law the dowry is paid to the bride, not to the bride's family, and it becomes her personal property. I don't think I've seen anywhere in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi that explains that the dowry is paid to the bride (although it is implicit in Messages to the Indian Subcontinent, p. 275), yet the House of Justice writes that "The law of Bahá'u'lláh abolishes all such variants and converts the dowry into a symbolic act whereby the bridegroom presents a gift of a certain limited value to the bride." (Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 208) In its list of currently binding law it includes "the payment of a dowry by the groom *to the bride* on marriage." (Letter of July 1 1996). So far as I know (my knowledge on this is limited), the Bayan also does not specify that it is the bride who receives the dowry. But it is explicitly stated in
Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
> I remember once suggesting that the Bahai faith had a notion of
> orthodoxy, or "right belief" (like certain other religions) using
> Sen's disenrollment as an example. But then you had argued it wasn't
> so important Sen's issues wasn't so much a matter of mere belief but
> had more to do with his relation to the Covenant. Have your views on
> this point changed over time? Below you seem to say Sen was
> disenrolled merely for holding the wrong views.
Dear Gilberto,
I would say that is still the case. Sen could have held these same
beliefs and remained a Baha'i in good standing had he not chosen to
continue vigorously promulgating those views by trying to sneak his
way around the review process in order to publish a book which
directly contradicted what the House had told him on this issue.
warmest, Susan
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Re: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
> i could think of a good reason, unless the House has openly stated that a > particular individual is the spokesperson for the House, the person speaking > for the House is speaking out of turnas well, whatever the resaons are > they are between Sen and the House, should Sen wish to reveal the resaons to > either friend or foe.that would be within his right...that still does > not change the reality that whatever the relationship between Sen and the > House ISthe relationship is still between Sen and the House...like a > marriage. > third parties like children can side with one party or another for whatever > reasonbut it doesnt alter the reality one bit. Dear Maidenleaf, If there was any private communication between Sen and the House it was some years ago and he has chosen to disclose its contents, which is his right. To my knowledge they have not communicated with him directly in recent years. Their decision to remove Sen from the rolls was conveyed to him through the NSA of the Netherlands. Likewise their statement regarding Sen's book was made publicly, not privately. In short, if the House wished this to remain a private matter between it and Sen McGlinn, they would not have publicized it by sending this letter to the all of the National Spiritual Assemblies: 14 November 2005 Transmitted by email To all National Spiritual Assemblies Dear Bahá'í Friends, Recently, questions have arisen which have prompted the Universal House of Justice to comment further on matters treated in the compilation "Issues Related to the Study of the Bahá'í Faith". The Bahá'í principle calling for investigation of reality encourages an unfettered search for knowledge and truth by whoever wishes to engage in it. When applied to the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, it inevitably gives rise to a wide range of responses. Some, attracted to the Message, embrace the Cause as their own. Some may respond positively to certain precepts or principles and willingly collaborate toward shared aims. Some may find it to be an interesting social phenomenon worthy of study. Still others, content with their own beliefs, may reject its claims. Bahá'ís are taught to be respectful of the views of others, believing that conscience should not be coerced. Upon becoming a Bahá'í, one accepts certain fundamental beliefs; but invariably one's knowledge of the Teachings is limited and often mixed with personal ideas. Shoghi Effendi explains that "an exact and thorough comprehension of so vast a system, so sublime a revelation, so sacred a trust, is for obvious reasons beyond the reach and ken of our finite minds." Over time, through study, prayerful reflection, and an effort to live a Bahá'í life, immature ideas yield to a more profound understanding of Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. Service to the Cause plays a particular role in the process, for the meaning of the Text is clarified as one translates insights into effective action. As a matter of principle, individual understanding or interpretation should not be suppressed, but valued for whatever contribution it can make to the discourse of the Bahá'í community. Nor should it, through dogmatic insistence of the individual, be allowed to bring about disputes and arguments among the friends; personal opinion must always be distinguished from the explicit Text and its authoritative interpretation by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi and from the elucidations of the Universal House of Justice on "problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book". In searching for understanding, Bahá'ís naturally acquaint themselves with published materials from a variety of sources. A book written by a disinterested non-Bahá'í scholar about the Faith, even if it reflects certain assumptions and puts forward conclusions acceptable within a given discipline but which are at variance with Bahá'í belief, poses no particular problem for Bahá'ís, who would regard these perceptions as an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood generally. Any non-biased effort to make the Faith comprehensible to a thoughtful readership, however inadequate it might appear, would evoke genuine Bahá'í appreciation for the perspective offered and research skill invested in the project. The matter is wholly different, however, when someone intentionally attacks the Faith. An inescapable duty devolves upon the friends so to situate themselves in the knowledge of the Teachings as to be able to respond appropriately to such a challenge as it arises and thus uphold the integrity of the Faith. The words of Bahá'u'lláh Himself shed light on the proper attitude to adopt. He warns the believers "not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men". "Let them", He instructs, "rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy. Those men, however, who, in this may, have been led
Re: Translation of quote in French please...
I like that.
On 1/3/08, Sandra C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Would someone please translate the following quote for me ?
>
> "Il existe deux facons de vivre ta vie. Tu peux penser que las miracles
> n'existent pas. Mais tu peux penser que tout est un miracle."
>
> It is attributed to Albert Einstein
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> Sandra
>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
> > If any of the 'reasons' you gave in the posting were the reasons the
> > House of Justice had or have against Sen's views, I think they would
> > not be afraid of stating this. They have not.
> Actually, they did. But their statements were misrepresented as saying
> Baha'is couldn't study theology.
i don't know any of you people, and personally i don't give a flip about who
any of you think you are, and i am taking this post at face value, what is
actually written here is what i am responding too...and not personalities or
popular support.
this statement appears to take the position that the person writing it has made
the "correct" representation of what the House stated and the other person has
misrepresented the specific statement from the House.both are saying i'm
right and you are not, you both might as well toss a coin, or expect your
arguments to rest on past performance or glory. on their own neither statement
has greater merit than the other.
> > You are prefectly free to express your own opinions about what you
> > think of Sen's writing and your own objections to this are, but I
> > think it is not your place to claim what the House of Justice's
> > reasons are for removing him from the rolls.
> Why not? Sen has certainly felt free to do so.
i could think of a good reason, unless the House has openly stated that a
particular individual is the spokesperson for the House, the person speaking
for the House is speaking out of turnas well, whatever the resaons are they
are between Sen and the House, should Sen wish to reveal the resaons to either
friend or foe.that would be within his right...that still does not change
the reality that whatever the relationship between Sen and the House ISthe
relationship is still between Sen and the House...like a marriage.
third parties like children can side with one party or another for whatever
reasonbut it doesnt alter the reality one bit.
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Re: from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
> the following you wrote is the very opposite of anything I have seen
> written by Sen or heard him voice, so please provide any evidence
> written in Sen's own hand to support your claim here.
Own hand? All we get are bytes out here in cyberspace. But here are
some of his statements in this regard:
"I was bought up with the 'Baha'i Faith has no clergy' line too, and
it has taken me years to realize that it ain't necessarily so . . . I
think we are beginning to see the development of a new organ of
religious/academic specialists, and that we can form some idea of
what it might be and how it might work . . . The development of an
organ of 'learned and divines' in the Baha'i community will demand a
major conceptual shift on the part of the whole community, whose
self-image has included the lack of such a
body as a virtue."
"So it seems more likely that the key institutions at the world
level and at the national level will grow out of something like the
Haj Mehdi Arjmand foundation, which is achieving a great deal already
- or my own pet project of a college for Baha'i students and scholars
at Leiden . . . My sense is that we start with excellence and the
academic infrastructure I listed, and out of that develop the
pre-eminent libraries, seminaries, universities and so forth. When
the El-Azhar publishes an official (ie collective university)
opinion, as it did a few years ago on the Baha'i Faith, this carries
tremendous weight, but I don't think anyone appointed the
university to this position or that any outside body has decreed how
the Azhar should go about formulating its opinions."
"In short, I don't think we should be looking to the elected
institutions to achieve the vision of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha,
regarding the role of the learned and divines, for us. It would even
be normal for there to be a degree of tension and jealousy between the
elected organs and the incipient organs of the divines and the house
of worship."
> Taking individual words of Sen's out of the context of a sentence, as
> I hope you would realise, would not convince me of your claim.
I'm not terribly concerned with convincing you. You will believe
whatever you want about your husband. If Sen feels his words are being
taken out of context he is certainly free to put up the entire post
from which these quotations were taken so people can decide for
themselves whether I have misrepresented him.
> If any of the 'reasons' you gave in the posting were the reasons the
> House of Justice had or have against Sen's views, I think they would
> not be afraid of stating this. They have not.
Actually, they did. But their statements were misrepresented as saying
Baha'is couldn't study theology.
> You are prefectly free to express your own opinions about what you
> think of Sen's writing and your own objections to this are, but I
> think it is not your place to claim what the House of Justice's
> reasons are for removing him from the rolls.
Why not? Sen has certainly felt free to do so.
>
> Wouldn't it be better scholarship, surely, to refrute Sen's
> argumentation by showing this from the Writings themselves?
It depends on whether we are talking specifically about a certain text
of the Writings or about the Baha'i Teachings in general. If we are
talking about the Teachings then the Guardian's interpretations,
including those contained in letters written on his behalf, as well as
the elucidations of the Universal House of Justice are perfectly valid
sources, and sources which Sen generally ignores.
In any case, Ron asked what is in essence not really a scholarly
question, namely whether what Sen believed was outside the boundaries
of the Baha'i Faith. That was the question I was addressing. Clearly
the House has found some of Sen's actions and beliefs outside the
boundaries of what it means to be a Baha'i or they would not have
removed him from the rolls. That doesn't mean everything he thinks is
outside of those. This was my point to Ron.
Susan
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Re: Monogamy etc
> I am not much interested in monogamy vs polygamy and etc. The portion of
> Sen's message that I am very interested in your opinion about is as follows:
Dear Ron,
Why don't you tell us what you are hearing Sen saying here and we
might be better able to answer your question? As with most people,
some of what Sen says, I agree with and some I don't. For instance, I
don't think it is true that the Writings are not proof of
Baha'u'llah's revelation. According to the passage Sen himself cited
there are three incontrovertible proofs, His Person, the potency of
His Revelation and His Writings. I would agree with Sen that the
Manifestation is the Word of God in the primary sense and the Writings
are the Word only in the secondary sense. However, for those of us not
privileged to be alive during the appearance of the Manifestation, His
Words are generally all we have. But there is a reason I prefer to
tutor Book Four of Ruhi and why someone becomes a Baha'i every time I
do so. Learning about the lives of the Central Figures makes people
fall in love with them.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Dear Rich:
Actually, `Abdu'l-Baha did not reverse Himself; it's rather
straightforward if you follow it rather carefully. Here is the thing: as
you know, `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's "mind" not
just the Writings of Baha'u'llah; so, `Abdu'l-Baha tells Baha'is that
Baha'u'llah didn't allow bigamy. Then the Covenant-breakers use this as
an excuse to malign Him by misrepresenting what He says as abrogating
what to them was the explicit Text of the Aqdas. Then, `Abdu'l-Baha
explains that, no, He is not abrogating the Aqdas, that no one in this
Dispensation has the authority to abrogate the Aqdas, that He is
interpreting the intent of Aqdas, etc., etc., etc. `Abdu'l-Baha, and
only `Abdul-Baha, can do this because He is the Interpreter of the
"mind" of Baha'u'llah and only `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of the
Baha'u'llah's mind.
Good wishes,
Iskandar
Quoting Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Susan Maneck wrote:
>
> >I can appreciate the need to
> >
> >
> >>translate all the writings, but I sometimes wonder if these
> commentaries
> >>might be more helpful.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Dear Rich,
> >
> >Personally I don't want to read other people's commentary when I
> can't
> >read the original text.
> >
> >
> But we do have the text.
>
> >We've both heard folks say that Abdul-Baha
> >
> >
> >>abrogated bigamy and that, now, only monogamy is permitted.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Whatever Abdu'l-Baha might have said, Shoghi Effendi left no doubt
> >whatsoever that only monogamy was to be permitted.
> >
> >
> Where?
>
> > The quote
> >
> >
> >>from Amr Va Khalq casts that into doubt.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Amr Va Khalq also states that women can vote but not hold office in
> >Baha'i Administration.
> >
> >
> Which Abdul-Baha later reversed. He can reverse his own comentary.
> I'm
> not suggesting that we accept commentary as revelation, but that does
>
> bring up the point of whether or not we're ready as a community to
> make
> that distinction. I would however like to read more of the commentary
> so
> learning Persian I will go!
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >It should indeed. And Persian is a cinch compared to Arabic.
> >
> >
> I hope so, but some of the compound verbs confound me.
>
> >Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> >
> >
> >
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Re: Monogamy etc
Dear Brent, I am not much interested in monogamy vs polygamy and etc. The portion of Sen's message that I am very interested in your opinion about is as follows: First, I don't think that the Writings are the "proof" of the Bahai Faith, in the way that the Quran is the "proof" for Islam, the rapid revelation of verses is a proof for Babism, and the Bible is used as a proof in some forms of Protestant Christianity. Baha'u'llah writes ""The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed ... " (Gleanings p. 105) and ""Write: 'Hast thou not heard that My proof is My Essence, My evidence My person, and My argument My Manifestation? While that which hath proceeded from My pen is a path leading unto My recognition, ... My proof hath been the manifestations of My power, which have encompassed all who are in heaven and on earth. I have appointed Divine Verses as a path leading unto My recognition, as a bounty from Our presence unto both worlds." (Ma'idah al Ismani vol 4 p 93, trans. Ahang Rabbani). Thus the text itself is a 3rd-order revelation, which can lead us to the Revelation and Self of the Manifestation. Bahai theology generally needs a course correction here I think: it has been too much influenced by the Muslim, Protestant and Babi models. Second, I think you are quite right that not everyone must choose to become Bahais. The Bahai Faith does have a fuller measure of revelation, but that does not mean other religions are simply switched off from the 'voltage' of the Holy Spirit. God's way has been to work through successive revelations at long intervals, but also to keep inspiring previous religions for thousands of years. Shoghi Effendi writes: Such institutions as have strayed far from the spirit and teachings of Jesus Christ must of necessity, as the embryonic World Order of Bahá'u'lláh takes shape and unfolds, recede into the background, and make way for the progress of the divinely-ordained institutions that stand inextricably interwoven with His teachings. The indwelling Spirit of God which, in the Apostolic Age of the Church, animated its members, the pristine purity of its teachings, the primitive brilliancy of its light, will, no doubt, be reborn and revived as the inevitable consequence of this redefinition of its fundamental verities, and the clarification of its original purpose. For the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh -- if we would faithfully appraise it -- can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ. (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 185) In Secret of Divine Civlization, Abdu'l-Baha proposes not just ways to revive the fortunes of Iran and bringing peace, but also ways to revive the Faith of God there (Shi'ah Islam) and he argues that religions (plural) are the basis of human progress. There and in Traveller's Narrative he argues for religious tolerance, so that people of all religions can live side by side. I think they look forward to a revival of Christianity, Islam and other religions, which, because they rediscover the universal in their own teachings, will learn to work together. I do not know anywhere where they look forward to the extinction of other religions. What the world needs is not simply a new religion, that Bahai and only Bahai can provide. I think the need is for a new *kind* of religious order, and that the new religion of Bahai will help the older religions to together create it. What is needed is a new kind of religious order which will foster global unity, rather than creating a lot of separate religious identitites that compete with one another or fight. I think it is important to acknowledge that we leave childhood behind, but we take the things of childhood with us. Much of the past comes with us into postmodernity, but transformed or placed in a wider context. National and cultural identities for example. And Christianity "reborn and revived" as in the quote from Shoghi Effendi above. This opens the possibility for an explanation of progressive revelation that is not supercessionist. There are revelations throughout history, and their communities and positive effects continue for some thousands of years (but not indefinitely). Humanity passes through climactic changes, such as the end of the classical age, and the current transition to the postmodern, and then *all* of the religious communities have to reinvent themselves in a new world, which is painful and difficult. The religion that is born at the time of such a change also has to transform, but it has an easier task, less baggage, so their example of transformation can show the way. This reading preserves the special role of the new revelation in shaping the new age, b
Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Susan wrote: > Dear Ron, > > You'll need to be a bit more specific about which of Sen's opinions > you are talking about. My problem with Sen's views largely concerns > the fact that he so often ignores the authoritative interpretations of > the Guardian (especially if they are conveyed by his secretary) and > the elucidations of the House. This is what I think he is doing in > promoting bigamy as an option. > Dear Dr. Maneck, The part of Sen's message that I am interestred in your opnion about is the following (admittedly rather long section). It is close to how I read the Writings, and I would like to knopw your opinion about whether it is "OK' or not: Sen wrote First, I don't think that the Writings are the "proof" of the Bahai Faith, in the way that the Quran is the "proof" for Islam, the rapid revelation of verses is a proof for Babism, and the Bible is used as a proof in some forms of Protestant Christianity. Baha'u'llah writes ""The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed ... " (Gleanings p. 105) and ""Write: 'Hast thou not heard that My proof is My Essence, My evidence My person, and My argument My Manifestation? While that which hath proceeded from My pen is a path leading unto My recognition, ... My proof hath been the manifestations of My power, which have encompassed all who are in heaven and on earth. I have appointed Divine Verses as a path leading unto My recognition, as a bounty from Our presence unto both worlds." (Ma'idah al Ismani vol 4 p 93, trans. Ahang Rabbani). Thus the text itself is a 3rd-order revelation, which can lead us to the Revelation and Self of the Manifestation. Bahai theology generally needs a course correction here I think: it has been too much influenced by the Muslim, Protestant and Babi models. Second, I think you are quite right that not everyone must choose to become Bahais. The Bahai Faith does have a fuller measure of revelation, but that does not mean other religions are simply switched off from the 'voltage' of the Holy Spirit. God's way has been to work through successive revelations at long intervals, but also to keep inspiring previous religions for thousands of years. Shoghi Effendi writes: Such institutions as have strayed far from the spirit and teachings of Jesus Christ must of necessity, as the embryonic World Order of Bahá'u'lláh takes shape and unfolds, recede into the background, and make way for the progress of the divinely-ordained institutions that stand inextricably interwoven with His teachings. The indwelling Spirit of God which, in the Apostolic Age of the Church, animated its members, the pristine purity of its teachings, the primitive brilliancy of its light, will, no doubt, be reborn and revived as the inevitable consequence of this redefinition of its fundamental verities, and the clarification of its original purpose. For the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh -- if we would faithfully appraise it -- can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ. (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 185) In Secret of Divine Civlization, Abdu'l-Baha proposes not just ways to revive the fortunes of Iran and bringing peace, but also ways to revive the Faith of God there (Shi'ah Islam) and he argues that religions (plural) are the basis of human progress. There and in Traveller's Narrative he argues for religious tolerance, so that people of all religions can live side by side. I think they look forward to a revival of Christianity, Islam and other religions, which, because they rediscover the universal in their own teachings, will learn to work together. I do not know anywhere where they look forward to the extinction of other religions. What the world needs is not simply a new religion, that Bahai and only Bahai can provide. I think the need is for a new *kind* of religious order, and that the new religion of Bahai will help the older religions to together create it. What is needed is a new kind of religious order which will foster global unity, rather than creating a lot of separate religious identitites that compete with one another or fight. I think it is important to acknowledge that we leave childhood behind, but we take the things of childhood with us. Much of the past comes with us into postmodernity, but transformed or placed in a wider context. National and cultural identities for example. And Christianity "reborn and revived" as in the quote from Shoghi Effendi above. This opens the possibility for an explanation of progressive revelation that is not supercessionist. There are revelations throughout history, and their communities and positive effects continue for some thousands of years (but not indefin
Re: Translation of quote in French please...
There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a
miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle
But I think the French is more elegant
> "Il existe deux facons de vivre ta vie. Tu peux penser que las
> miracles n'existent pas. Mais tu peux penser que tout est un miracle."
--
--
Sen McGlinn
***
In reality, the radiant, pure hearts are the Mashrak-el-Azcar
and from them the voice of supplication and
invocation continually reacheth the Supreme Concourse.
Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas, p. 678
--
--
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from sonja: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Susan,
the following you wrote is the very opposite of anything I have seen
written by Sen or heard him voice, so please provide any evidence
written in Sen's own hand to support your claim here.
On 2 Jan 2008 at 19:31, Susan Maneck wrote:
> Their major objection to Sen's views, however, and what seems to >
have gotten him removed from the rolls, was his promotion of the >
idea that
> there should be a clerical class within the Baha'i community which
> would serve to critique the elected institutions.
Taking individual words of Sen's out of the context of a sentence, as
I hope you would realise, would not convince me of your claim.
If any of the 'reasons' you gave in the posting were the reasons the
House of Justice had or have against Sen's views, I think they would
not be afraid of stating this. They have not.
You are prefectly free to express your own opinions about what you
think of Sen's writing and your own objections to this are, but I
think it is not your place to claim what the House of Justice's
reasons are for removing him from the rolls.
Wouldn't it be better scholarship, surely, to refrute Sen's
argumentation by showing this from the Writings themselves?
Sonja
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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions
Dear Susan,
I remember once suggesting that the Bahai faith had a notion of
orthodoxy, or "right belief" (like certain other religions) using
Sen's disenrollment as an example. But then you had argued it wasn't
so important Sen's issues wasn't so much a matter of mere belief but
had more to do with his relation to the Covenant. Have your views on
this point changed over time? Below you seem to say Sen was
disenrolled merely for holding the wrong views.
-G
On Jan 2, 2008 8:31 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In particular, I would like to
> > know whether Brent, Dr. Maneck and others view these kind of opinions as
> > acceptable for a Baha'i to hold.
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> You'll need to be a bit more specific about which of Sen's opinions
> you are talking about. My problem with Sen's views largely concerns
> the fact that he so often ignores the authoritative interpretations of
> the Guardian (especially if they are conveyed by his secretary) and
> the elucidations of the House. This is what I think he is doing in
> promoting bigamy as an option.
>
> As for which opinions it is acceptable for a Baha'i to hold, I think
> the House has made it pretty clear which of Sen's positions they find
> objectionable. For instance, his position on religion and state is
> refuted in the following letter addressed to him decades ago:
> http://bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html
>
> The April 7, 1999 letter also condemns his position regarding the
> Mashriqu'l-Adhkar operating separately from the Houses of Justice:
> http://bahai-library.com/compilations/issues.scholarship.html
>
> Their major objection to Sen's views, however, and what seems to have
> gotten him removed from the rolls, was his promotion of the idea that
> there should be a clerical class within the Baha'i community which
> would serve to critique the elected institutions.
>
> In regards to issues related to triumphalism, I think there is much
> in the Writings that can be taken either way. Baha'is have very
> opinions in this regard. I certainly don't consider myself a
> triumphalist.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
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Monogamy etc
1. If a person wants to know what I think of his opinion, I'll offer my
own views, and my observations about where the opinion coincides with,
or veers from, the Baha'i teachings as I understand them.
I see that as quite different from being asked to pronounce on whether a
Baha'i is permitted to hold a certain view; that is, whether an entire
viewpoint is within the bounds of the Baha'i Faith. That's a much
bigger pronouncement; assumes a degree of authority; and is way above my
pay grade. It's a different approach, and one I won't do.
Besides, the Guardian gave the duty of compliance with the beliefs of
the faith to us individually to monitor for ourselves:
"This does not, however, mean that the absolute authority does not
remain in the revealed Words. We should try and keep as near to the
authority as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting from
the Works of Bahá'u'lláh in establishing our points. To discard the
authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely
individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to
strike a happy medium between these two extremes."
(Compilations, Principles of Bahai Administration, p. 25)
"The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth,
from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard
the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith"
- Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61
So it is a very important subject, and a personal spiritual obligation.
And being asked whether I agree with a viewpoint (which I'll respond to)
is different from being asked whether it's a belief a Baha'i can hold
(which I don't think I'll respond to).
2. Baha'u'llah and the Guardian urged us to learn Persian and Arabic. A
decade ago the House of Justice urged the Persian friends to teach
Persian to their western-born children. Learning the original languages
of Revelation in order to more deeply appreciate their beauty; the
majesty and perfection of the Guardian's translations; to draw closer to
the spirit of the Manifestation -- all of this is great. But I think we
should monitor our own motives, and if there is to any degree in our
motive for acquisition of these languages, either a desire to show off
our knowledge, or a suspicion about whether the Guardian and the House
are giving us the straight stuff, and we want to look for ourselves;
then I think this is a dangerous road. Then, learning Persian and Arabic
can lead to the fulfillment of the Hadith Baha'u'llah quotes in the
Iqan, that knowledge is the most grievous veil between God and man.
3. The views Sen expressed about monogamy and the exception to it for a
childless couple, based on an analysis of the laws of the Bab, did not
directly criticize or seek to refute the pronouncements of the Guardian
and the House of Justice on the subject. It entirely ignored them; they
might as well not have existed. And the last words of the Master in His
Will are that the source of guidance for us, till the next
Manifestation, is the Guardian and the House.
4. I'd like to share a verse from Rumi that I find helpful.
Iblis asked, “Can you tell a lie from the truth, you who are filled with
illusion?” Muawiya answered, “The Prophet has given a clue, a
touchstone to know the base coin from the true. He has said, ‘That
which is false troubles the heart, but Truth brings joyous tranquility.’”
Rúmí “Daylight,” p. 162
Brent
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Re: Translation of quote in French please...
Here is a possible translation:
" There are two ways of living your life. You can think that miracles do not
exist. But you can also think that everything is a miracle".
Iscander
- Original Message -
From: Sandra C.
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:43 AM
Subject: Translation of quote in French please...
Would someone please translate the following quote for me ?
"Il existe deux facons de vivre ta vie. Tu peux penser que las miracles
n'existent pas. Mais tu peux penser que tout est un miracle."
It is attributed to Albert Einstein
Thank you so much!
Sandra
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Translation of quote in French please...
Would someone please translate the following quote for me ?
"Il existe deux facons de vivre ta vie. Tu peux penser que las miracles
n'existent pas. Mais tu peux penser que tout est un miracle."
It is attributed to Albert Einstein
Thank you so much!
Sandra
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