Re: bahai-st digest: December 17, 2007
Dear all, I'm surprised to see the criticism of the One Common Faith document, but happy that it is at least being examined and discussed. I hope the result will be a clearer understanding and greater appreciation for what it says. I didn't find the document unclear. I found it groundbreaking in several ways, such as it's expressed recognition of the spiritual efficacy of other sacred books and other sacred traditions. I feel that it challenges Baha'is to think realistically about the future role of other religions, especially their importance in fostering peace, the need for Baha'is to acknowledge the value of the other religious leaders, to build on the interfaith movement and advance it from where it is today. But, more importantly, the One Common Faith document draws attention to the dangers of religious fanaticism that became all too clear in the 9/11 tragedy and the failure of religious leaders to prevent this sort of extremism. The notion that religion is not growing in importance and influence is perplexing given the recent and obvious Christian influence in America politics, the increased role of Hindusim, Buddhism, and Islam in politics and society in various countries, the proliferation of books on spiritual themes, the role of religion in school-room science, the environmental debate, etc. The One Common Faith document's main message--in my understanding of it--is that 1) the world has not made the equivalent social progress in the area of religion that has occurred with regard to women and race and 2) the way forward now is for religious leaders to acknowledge the oneness of religion. I find this to be a simple but bold message, even for some Baha'is. That is, that the oneness of religion already exist (independent of everyone converting to Baha'i). Like the oneness of humanity--there is only one true race, the human race, likewise, there is only one religion, the Baha'i Faith being a part of it. The problem is that people see this one religion as many unrelated traditions rather than one eternal Faith and this divides people and causes many to reject religion altogether. This oneness of all religions is an idea that challenges both traditional ideas and ways of seeing religion and the contemporary critique of religion. That this oneness of religion is inseparable from the oneness of humanity--also stated in the document--is likewise a profound insight. Timely, thoughtful--I think it deserves far more reflection and action than it's receiving. It is the most important message of our time. I was very impressed with the arguments and the manner in which it was articulated. In fact, I thought some of the phrases like viewed from this perspective were clever. This simple phrase provided a concise acknowledgment of the alternative arguments that exist, while pointing to a more positive Baha'i view. Beliefs are not value-neutral. We can choose the perspectives we adopt and these perspectives influence how we progress in life and as a society. The Baha'i community offers a perspective for viewing religion that is positive and that can be embraced by non-Baha'is--a perspective that can lead us into a better and safer future. I wish I had more time to address the criticisms that have been made, but unfortunately at the moment that's not possible. But even if it were hard to read--and it is not--I hope everyone will get what they can from it and focus on a positive plan of action for propagating the important principle of the oneness of religion. Best, Michael ** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Re: bahai-st digest: July 24, 2007
Hi Ron, Interesting paper. I have a few comments. The spiritual crisis comes from the tendency for our scientific understandings, which are divorced from any religious teachings, to lead to materialistic nihilism, because science can not generate values, morality and reasons for living. Thus society is advancing materially and technologically but is adrift morally and spiritually. You might want to define what exactly is the modern spiritual crisis. Especially, how it differs from any past ills. Also, you might want to point out how the crisis differs in Western secular societies from the seemingly greater crisises of more religious societies today. Another problem you might want to consider is why less religious Western societies are more receptive to Baha'i principles than more religious non-western societies that are yet to really embrace scientific methology and religious sketicism. Rather than going insane as a society, the way out is for humanity to recognize that, while religion can not be proven, nor forced, it can be chosen. By choosing to affirm the worth and deep necessity of the human nousphere or inner life, people and society can decide that human life is only worth living with full attention to the meaning of the human condition, which is an idealistic, psychic realm that can inform society of values and meaning. Why would choosing this line of thinking be harder for a person who embraces scientific methodology, that is, than for a person who doesn't? A very fundamental question to the reasoning used here, is it necessary to assume that existing scientific methology is really against religion and spirituality--i.e., the two cannot be in harmony? Are we moving in the direction of reconciling science and religion by gradually throwing out successful scientific methodologies? Consensus will require a recognition of revealed psychic truths, but these revealed truths must needs be Recognized by a critical mass of society, not Forced down people's throats by fear. The new religious understanding must be that God guides and influences humanity by means of psychic inspiration of humans and societies, not by direct manipulation of the empirical laws of nature. On the other hand, God reveals the empirical laws of nature to human scientific enquiry, not through religious Revelation, which has a much higher purpose. There is little agreement among religious believers about how revelation works, or its nature, limits, types, etc. If we argue that recognition of revelation is required, especially by people of no faith (?), are we not asserting that revelation doesn't present rational truths that stand on their own? Does a person have to embrace revelation (in whatever form it might be argued) in order to embrace the principle of the oneness of mankind or the equality of men and women, etc? It is necessary to show why this is really essential. 'Abdu'l-Baha, for example, used reason and science to demonstrate Baha'i principles when speaking to people of science, so I'm wondering if we can learn something from Him, i.e., from how He treated reason and scientific methodology. That would also be an interesting paper by itself. This way out, once chosen, leads to the conclusion that humanity must give birth to something beyond it's current self. The modern West is the culmination of many centuries of male dominated individualism. In order to give birth to the Future, the Western Spirit must embrace its feminine Soul in the form of the Psyche. I agree, but I think it would be good to explain why the feminine will be better. Very interesting thoughts. Good luck with your paper. I rarely get a chance to read anything on this forum, but glanced at it today and saw your paper. It will give me something to think about as I go about my work today... Best michael ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Nude Painting in Churches
In a message dated 12/29/05 10:00:41 PM, bahai-st@list.jccc.edu writes:
The painiting of nudes began during the Renaissance and was largely an outcome of their misunderstanding of Greek art. As you know, the Renaissance represents an attempt at revival of Greco-Roman culture. For that reason, Greek sculpture was taken as the model for accurately representing the human form. And what Renaissance artists saw of those sculptures were nudes. Thing is, the Greeks clothed and painted their scuplture originally. But the clothing and paint did not survive, leaving only a nude base for our Renaissance artists to emulate.
Interesting topic. I hope you don't mind in I contribute.
It is accepted today that many ancient statues were painted, but incorrect to say that they had clothes painted onto them. Looking at surviving examples, both Roman copies of Greek statues and Greek originals, you will be able to see that the garments were sculpted, just as flesh was sculpted. Consult any book of Greek or Roman sculpture and you can see interesting examples. So, the later European representation of "nudity" is accurate. That is, many Greek statues were depicting nudity, and Renaissance artists were correct about that matter.
Nudity, or representations of partially nude figures, occurred for a variety of reasons, but not usually for erotic purposes. In some cases it did, but more to depict "Beauty" and "Eros" as persona in poetic narratives. Outside of what is generally familiar there is Greek fertility art and on pottery depictions of sexual acts. But this erotic work does not appear to have had any influence on Christian art.
Nudity in Christian religious art does occur during the Renaissance, but I think you will find that in Churches, in most cases, it fits and serves the narrative. That is, Adam and Eve, for example, are commonly depicted as nude, as the biblical narrative has it, or a garment is torn, representing some form of struggle or such in a biblical narrative. You will not find churches with brothel-like nudes. The famous nudes of Michelangelo's Last Judgment, for example, are not erotic. A large amount of nudes in Western art from the Renaissance forward, was depicting Greek and Roman themes. I think one can infer from Baha'i texts that the revival of Greek learning, and its influence on the arts, is a positive development in Christian Europe, even if there is a preference that Baha'i *Temples* not include representational ornamentation.
Also, figurative art existed in Persia before the arrival of Islam and continued to exist there to this day. That is, figurative Islamic art has always existed in Persian Islamic culture. This can be seen in manuscript miniatures, tile art, murals on buildings, and today, in popular religious books and even cheap posters and souvenirs. In this regard, Iran is somewhat unique in its attitude toward figurative religious art. It has always been debated, hated by some, and at times destroyed, but best I can tell, never eradicated. Likewise, Iran has had until recently, a long and strong tradition of religious plays or theatre-like performance art. It has been argued that this acceptance of figurative art in Persia reflects a more cosmopolitan Islamic culture than that of Arabia and North Africa. Even in the geometric art of Arab regions there are at least recognizable floral representations.
Much has been written by scholars on all these topic and I'm just simplifying matters.
As a final note, Baha'u'llah reveals this passage, "the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His [Jesus'] transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit." (GL 85-86)
Warmest,
Michael
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Re: Quddus as Mihdi and Christ
Dear Ahang, I agree with this, but would state it slightly differently. Nabil was echoing and in fact down-playing Babi sentiments. Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. For the Babis that was a critical point since in Shi'a eschatology, the Mihdi had to appear with the Christ. Therefore the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it, which Quddus fulfilled. I really know nothing about this matter apart from a vague idea of how Nabil represents things--something I'm long overdue to revisit. But I'm wondering if how you've presented this is how it is represented in Baha'i scripture or if this is just suggested in sources about Quddus? Is this scriptural: the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it? That is, 1) Did the Bab ever directly claim to be the Mihdi? 2) Was that claim, if made, represented by the Bab or Baha'u'llah as incomplete by itself? 3) Did the Bab assert that the return of Christ had to accompany Him or is this just assumed from traditions and verses such as and the Prophets were brought up (Qur'an 39:68/DB 41)? Also, how does Nabil differ from Quddus' own self-representation? Does Quddus represent himself as the Mihdi? Sorry if you've answered all these questions before. My memory isn't too good. It seems from Nabil that Quddus fulfills both positions, Mihdi and Christ's return. That is, the tradition recorded by Bukhari regarding the Mihdi is associated with Quddus: 'Should your eyes behold the Black Standards proceeding from Khurasan, hasten ye towards them, even though ye should have to crawl over the snow, inasmuch as they proclaim the advent of the promised Mihdi, the Vicegerent of God.' That standard was unfurled at the command of the Bab, *in the name of Quddus*, and by the hands of Mulla Husayn. (DB 351) This point is further asserted in this text: In this manner they reached the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsi. The first words that fell from the lips of Quddus after he had dismounted and leaned against the shrine were the following: 'The Baqiyyatullah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.' By this utterance was fulfilled the prophecy of Muhammad as recorded in the following tradition: 'And when the Mihdi is made manifest, He shall lean His back against the Ka'bih and shall address to the three hundred and thirteen followers who will have grouped around Him, these words: The Baqiyyatu'llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.' (DB 352-3) As Nabil presents it, the Bab never directly claims to be the Mihdi, only Quddus, who is likewise represented as Christ, though not as a direct echatological claim, as is the references to the Mihdi. It seems that the Bab is represented as the Mihdi only insofar as when Quddus is represented as the Mihdi, and we are led to understand that Quddus is in fact the light of the Bab after the Bab was in captivity. Nabil seems to use Qur'an 39:68, fashioned in a sermon by Siyyid Kazim, as a thesis for much in the following narrative. The christ-like representation of Quddus conforms to this early expectation. In the NT there is a progression on some eschatological matters, such as the Harrowing of Hell as eschatological fulfillment, with early texts silent or even suggesting it hadn't occurred and latter texts attributed to Paul and Peter affirming it. So perhaps something similar is occuring here. The Bab is silent, while Quddus is addressing particular expectations and only a limited picture of this is coming through in Nabil's narrative. Towards this, for instance, Quddus named his sister Maryam (Mary) to evoke that Christian connection and he modeled his life after the Christ (wearing the same type of clothing, etc). Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, not even Christ. Nabil mentions Quddus' unconventional dress (DB 145), but how do we know how Jesus dressed and if Quddus intended his clothes to represent those of Jesus? In saying that Quddus suffered more than Christ, Baha'u'llah would be representing him as someone unlike Christ. But perhaps that's a peculiarly Eastern way of representing likeness. But given Nabil's narrative methodology, I would not be surprised by some linkage with Baha'u'llah's writings. The station of Quddus is really somewhat different from Ali's. Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. That is, while he did not bring about a new Shari'a, and reflected the light of the Bab, he ranked as a Manifestation. A new Shari'a is not really a requirement of a Manifestation, but rather a type of Manifestation. But the connection with the Book of Revelation isn't really based on either being Manifestations, apart from
Re: Rev. 11:3
In a message dated 6/8/04 11:21:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am still trying to understand why Shoghi Effendi specifically says Quddus was ONE OF THE TWO WITNESSES whose appearance was ANTICIPATED IN THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN. Is the Book of Revelation in this chapter informing us that there are TWO WITNESSES for the first woe and TWO WITNESSES for the second woe? If this is true, somehow this message is escaping me in my reading of it. Thank you. Dear Larry, You are correct. The Book of Revelation is saying that there are two witnesses for the first woe and two for the second woe. The two who appear in the second woe are the return of the former. The first woe after the Day of Jesus is that of Muhammad. The second woe is the Day of the Bab, and the third, that of Baha'u'llah. In the Day of Muhammad, the two greatest witnesses were Muhammad and Ali and this, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation can be correlated with the Book of Revelation. In the Day of the Bab, these two witnesses return in the persons of the Bab and Quddus. In the early history we can observe that the station of Quddus was the highest in the Babi community after that of the Bab. When the Bab was in captivity, it was Quddus who led the Babis and reflected the light of the Bab. He became the Mihdi, and in way, he even became the Bab. In a sense any Manifestation is the return of all the former Manifestations. One could correlate Quddus too with any former Manifestation. But in some respects they are more like particular Manifestations than other ones. Nabil for example represents Quddus in a Christ-like way which helps convey the greatness of his station. The role of John the Baptist is very much like that of Elijah. Quddus' relationship to the Bab is unique in some ways but in other ways similar to that of Ali to Muhammad. Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
KJV in Iqan
In a message dated 5/10/04 10:52:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When the Iqan quotes the Bible it is exactly the same as the KJV. The Iqan quotes are close but not exactly as the KJV. For example, KJV 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the *heavens* shall be shaken. Iqan: Immediately after the oppression of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the *earth* shall be shaken. The quranic verses in the original Iqan did not agree with the accepted Arabic Qur'an and were later harmonized. regards, Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The concept of Vengence in Islam / Clergy question
In a message dated 4/18/04 10:52:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And, by the way, this applies to Christian Clergy as well. So we can see a lot of resistance from a lot of clergy Dear Scott, Baha'i scripture indicates that the Muslim and Christian clergy can still have a rank, position, and positive intellectual and moral role in guiding individual and state affairs in the world today. Just as they influence people today and have the power to contribute to the ruin of nations and create strife and warfare, so too they can prevent the same. Good statesmanship involves and hears all recognizable and representative voices within society. Nor should it be thought for a moment that the followers of Baha'u'llah either seek to degrade or even belittle the rank of the world's religious leaders, whether Christian, Muslim, or of any other denomination, should their conduct conform to their professions, and be worthy of the position they occupy. Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are, verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations. The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls. And again: The divine whose conduct is upright, and the sage who is just, are as the spirit unto the body of the world. Well is it with that divine whose head is attired with the crown of justice, and whose temple is adorned with the ornament of equity. And yet again: The divine who hath seized and quaffed the most holy Wine, in the name of the sovereign Ordainer, is as an eye unto the world. Well is it with them who obey him, and call him to remembrance. Great is the blessedness of that divine, He, in another connection, has written, that hath not allowed knowledge to become a veil between him and the One Who is the Object of all knowledge, and who, when the Self-Subsisting appeared, hath turned with a beaming face towards Him. He, in truth, is numbered with the learned. The inmates of Paradise seek the blessing of his breath, and his lamp sheddeth its radiance over all who are in heaven and on earth. He, verily, is numbered with the inheritors of the Prophets. He that beholdeth him hath, verily, beheld the True One, and he that turneth towards him hath, verily, turned towards God, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Respect ye the divines amongst you, is His exhortation, They whose acts conform to the knowledge they possess, who observe the statutes of God, and decree the things God hath decreed in the Book. Know ye that they are the lamps of guidance betwixt earth and heaven. They that have no consideration for the position and merit of the divines amongst them have, verily, altered the bounty of God vouchsafed unto them. (Promised Day 110-111) Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [bbst] I am the Way...No one cometh NO ONE COMETH TO ANY FIRESIDE! BUT WITH THESE THREE QUOTATIONS
These are the most famous three. I believe the Universal House of Justice referred to Passages of Exclusivity and Finality in Their Letter to Leaders. But to my limited limited knowledge *no one* has taken up these Passages ... Dear Khazeh, Actually, these verses you inquired about are addressed in a number of Baha'i books. But its good that you bring them to other's attention, for of all the verses in the Bible, these three are foremost the ones every Baha'i who teaches Christians would do well to memorize. 1) John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Baha'u'llah's Tablet to the Christians (1990), pages 45-6. Understanding Christian Beliefs (1991), pages 88, 121, 161. The Prophecies of Jesus (1991), page121. The Station and Claims of Baha'u'llah, 1997), pages 76-77. Briefly, this claim is found in all religions, even Buddhism. It refers to the Reality the Manifestation of God represents and embodies, the eternal Word and Truth, and is not a point distinquishing one from another Manifestations, but rather distinquishing their way of self-sacrifice and compassion from the ways of the world--i.e., greed, violence, materialism, etc. It is an excellent verse to reflect on in relation to the materialism in the world today. 2) John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Understanding Biblical Evidence (1990), pages 110, 133. Understanding Christian Beliefs (1991), pages 71, 84, 85. The Station and Claims of Baha'u'llah, 1997), pages 201. With regard to John 3:16, there's little that needs to be said, other than this: This verse is every bit as much an assurance to anyone who believes in Jesus Christ--whether Christian, Muslim, or Baha'i. So there really is no question to answer, merely a concurance. The Baha'i Faith affirms the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus. This verse is well worth reciting to any Christian who doubts the everlasting life of Baha'is--it is an undeniable assurance of Jesus Christ Himself that Baha'is are saved by their belief and faith. 3) Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Baha'u'llah's Tablet to the Christians (1990), page 38. Understanding Christian Prophecy (1991), pages 186, 187, 191, 192, 199. The Station and Claims of Baha'u'llah, 1997), pages 102, 105, 193. Saint Peter (Acts 4:12) uses the word name, but in biblical usage, as Christian commentators agree, this refers to the person, or more particularly what the person represents. So the answer to John 14:6 applies here as well. It is another verse to reflect on in relation to the materialism in the world today. This verse is reflected in Baha'i scripture as well: This is the day whereon nothing amongst all things, nor any name amongst all names, can profit you save through this Name which God hath made the Manifestation of His Cause and the Dayspring of His Most Excellent Titles unto all who are in the kingdom of creation. (ESW 97) I think you will find that, besides other Baha'i books, a number of broad-minded Christians have taken up these verses in their own commentaries and books and given very satisfactory answers, better than any I have written. The book, The Station and Claims of Baha'u'llah, of course is my own sincere attempt to take up at length the issue of exclusivity and finality in our own teaching as it relates to us as a Faith community and our own sacred Writings, but in doing so, the book brings together examples from other Faiths, such as the verses you mentioned. Like Ted, I look forward to what Gary and others may add to this subjects as well. Warmest, Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
