Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > * But as he is the Guardian, he has a “plus” that the House doesn’t have “he > often senses a situation or condition without having any >detailed >knowledge > of it”. How do we know the House doesn't have this as well? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510228-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> As such, it is easy to **imagine** the House of Justice in the future >> (posthumously?) referring to some believer as having distinguished >> him/herself to such a degree in the realms of faith, spirituality and >> service that they had risen to such a station. >Sorry, I'm getting to some of these emails so late, but I don't really >think it is the place of the Universal House of Justice to do this. Ya...I don't assume that they will. I **imagine** that they might. Excessive imagination is my vice! Peace, Gary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-508231-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, 'Abdu'l-Bahá talk about the life of the believers, for example in "Memories to the Faithful". And the Guardian did it too. This is much interpretation? if so, the House will never interpret. This article of Ian Semple is very good about the sphere of the interpretation of the Guardian. I quote one extract: He likes to be provided with facts by the friends, when they ask his advice, for although his decisions are guided by God, he is not, like the Prophet, omniscient at will, in spite of the fact that he often senses a situation or condition without having any detailed knowledge of it. (1948.03.04 - Sec) Here I see two points: * The Guardian is not omniscient * But as he is the Guardian, he has a “plus” that the House doesn’t have “he often senses a situation or condition without having any detailed knowledge of it”. He appointed Hands in life and posthumous. --- El dom, 6/6/10, Susan Maneck escribió: De: Susan Maneck Asunto: Re: Lesser Prophets A: "Baha'i Studies" Fecha: domingo, 6 de junio de 2010, 10:55 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv > As such, it is easy to **imagine** the House of Justice in the future > (posthumously?) referring to some believer as having distinguished > him/herself to such a degree in the realms of faith, spirituality and > service that they had risen to such a station. Sorry, I'm getting to some of these emails so late, but I don't really think it is the place of the Universal House of Justice to do this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-508073-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-508134-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > As such, it is easy to **imagine** the House of Justice in the future > (posthumously?) referring to some believer as having distinguished > him/herself to such a degree in the realms of faith, spirituality and > service that they had risen to such a station. Sorry, I'm getting to some of these emails so late, but I don't really think it is the place of the Universal House of Justice to do this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-508073-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Women and Men (was: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Brent, >Baha'u'llah said the day will come when a woman traveling alone will be able >to traverse >the entire surface of the earth ... and without a single man having looked >upon her with lust. While men have a responsibility for this, it would also help if women would stop dressing in a way that is designed to provoke lust. Some women do dress modestly, but too many dress in a manner to show off their bodies. Tim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-505010-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Mary Lou: Personally, I think that Mormons should primarily be approached as Christians, only secondarily as Mormons. That is, that they are best approached with the explanations in Some Answered Questions and the Book of Certitude, about the Bible and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the way any other Christians would be approached, rather than on a focus on the various writings of the Latter Day Saints religion. Because I do not see the Guardian endorsing Joseph Smith as a Lesser Prophet, and I do not see him endorsing his writings as sacred Scripture. The source for the Guardian's writings on this Faith are primarily found in Lights of Guidance, I suggest you take a look there. And the Guardian says in one of his letters to the Baha'is of Alaska that historians will pass on his writings, which is not the approach he takes to any Scriptures: "As there is nothing specific about Joseph Smith in the teachings, the Guardian has no statement to make on his position or about the accuracy of any statement in the Book of Mormon regarding American history or its peoples. This is a matter for historians to pass upon" (Shoghi Effendi through his secretary, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 71) The Guardian wrote that it is advisable to approach the LDS people with matters that are common to both, and my recollection is that he said that we share certain ethical teachings, such as chastity and abstinence from alcohol. There are books such as "So Great A Cause" by an LDS man who became a Baha'i, which you can get on inter-library loan, the Las Cruces public library has a very good program for this, and this would answer your question about the prophecy in Joseph Smith's book The Pearl of Great Price, about if he lived to a certain age he would see the return of Christ, and that pointed to a date towards the end of Baha'u'llah's life. Joseph Smith was murdered about one month after the Declaration of the Bab. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-503965-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Brent what great inisghts and skillful use of the Writings.. Just this afternoon a long time friedn and former roommate of David came to visit he lives ina small town with mostly Morman farmers he an dhis wife are from Bruni and the farmers are wooing them What a feather in your Morman hat to attrcat to black people to the FAith O Brent I know some of the Morman religion can you direct me to some things in the Writings about this subject. he told me how Joseph Smith spoke aorund the year 1832.. and he knew BAhaullah came in 1850,, He was asking what it meant when Joseph Smith said he had the last Revelation about Jesus what do we have to say about Joseph Smith besides being a minor Prophet is there some quote where Joseph Smith says if I lived to 1892 I would see my Lord.. tell vicki I sid happy Mother's day and remind her Mother Allay Mentor--Confidante. Inspiration -friend Vickie is all these things to so many people she is dearly missed in Las Cruces. do you know LAs Cruces including Anthony is an A cluster. so much of the teaching is going on in Anthony Many prayers and happy Mother's day to Vickie do you have mnay grandchildren did David marry.. joyfully MAri K do you pray for your parents and relative often do you know all about the Mormans baptized their family members who were not Mormans after their death so all can be together in heaven do you know if there is a great charge for this service.. I know there are many shortcomings to that Faith but they seem to emphasize family and service ,, why is th emorman religion so rich I have lots of quetsions - Original Message From: Brent Poirier To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, May 7, 2010 2:49:24 AM Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv I wonder if we have not seen the end of the phenomenon of Lesser Prophets, with the close of the Cycle of Prophecy. Humanity used to get these short bursts of inspired Minor Prophets, with their unassailable moral integrity, upholding the divine standard and warning the people to adhere to it. But now we have the inspired House of Justice, and it's here full time, and not only crying out as an individual, but with a formal, institutionalized, permanent, deep and widespread influence; and combined with that, we have the potential of the individual believers attaining to the station of the Lesser Prophets of old. Actually, I think that is not a statement of sameness, it is just a shorthand way of the Master conveying that this Day is unique. It is reminiscent of Baha'u'llah saying that the station of the Letters of the Living is ten thousand times greater than the apostles of old (WOB 108). That's not a matter of quantifying; in a sense, ten thousand is not a big enough number, even a million is too small a number. Because just as ten thousand singing birds don't equate to one human being; the whole scale has been lifted up with the coming of Baha'u'llah. There's no comparing any more. "One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised -- nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison!" (Iqan, paragraph 153) One good deed in this Day, excels all the good deeds performed by all human beings in all previous Dispensations. In a previous Dispensation, one man, the High Priest; would on one day, the holiest day of the year; enter one place, the Holy of Holies; and one time, would recite the Name of God. Now, the Name of God is the way humans are to greet one another. The whole earth has been raised up. It's like astronomical distances, where you have a distance measured in millions of light years, which stops being an instrument of measure, and just becomes a sense of "that's farther than I can imagine." You can't add up enough diamonds, or birds, to equate to one human being, and you can't add up enough of anything from previous Dispensations to equate to the spirit, and teachings, and institutions Baha'u'llah has brought -- particularly including the full-time presence of divine guidance, and incorruptible application of the laws of the Revelation, represented in the House of Justice. And though we can't see it now, I think the idea is that the whole earth will be populated by believers who attain to the station of Lesser Prophets. Not the title, and not the functions, but something of the exaltation. Baha'u'llah said the day will come when a woman traveling alone will be able to traverse the entire surface of the earth unmolested, and without a single man having looked upon her with lust. The effect of His laws and teachings and institutions cannot presently be imagined. And that's why any deed we do in further
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I wonder if we have not seen the end of the phenomenon of Lesser Prophets, with the close of the Cycle of Prophecy. Humanity used to get these short bursts of inspired Minor Prophets, with their unassailable moral integrity, upholding the divine standard and warning the people to adhere to it. But now we have the inspired House of Justice, and it's here full time, and not only crying out as an individual, but with a formal, institutionalized, permanent, deep and widespread influence; and combined with that, we have the potential of the individual believers attaining to the station of the Lesser Prophets of old. Actually, I think that is not a statement of sameness, it is just a shorthand way of the Master conveying that this Day is unique. It is reminiscent of Baha'u'llah saying that the station of the Letters of the Living is ten thousand times greater than the apostles of old (WOB 108). That's not a matter of quantifying; in a sense, ten thousand is not a big enough number, even a million is too small a number. Because just as ten thousand singing birds don't equate to one human being; the whole scale has been lifted up with the coming of Baha'u'llah. There's no comparing any more. "One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised -- nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison!" (Iqan, paragraph 153) One good deed in this Day, excels all the good deeds performed by all human beings in all previous Dispensations. In a previous Dispensation, one man, the High Priest; would on one day, the holiest day of the year; enter one place, the Holy of Holies; and one time, would recite the Name of God. Now, the Name of God is the way humans are to greet one another. The whole earth has been raised up. It's like astronomical distances, where you have a distance measured in millions of light years, which stops being an instrument of measure, and just becomes a sense of "that's farther than I can imagine." You can't add up enough diamonds, or birds, to equate to one human being, and you can't add up enough of anything from previous Dispensations to equate to the spirit, and teachings, and institutions Baha'u'llah has brought -- particularly including the full-time presence of divine guidance, and incorruptible application of the laws of the Revelation, represented in the House of Justice. And though we can't see it now, I think the idea is that the whole earth will be populated by believers who attain to the station of Lesser Prophets. Not the title, and not the functions, but something of the exaltation. Baha'u'llah said the day will come when a woman traveling alone will be able to traverse the entire surface of the earth unmolested, and without a single man having looked upon her with lust. The effect of His laws and teachings and institutions cannot presently be imagined. And that's why any deed we do in furtherance of this Cause, is incalculably significant. We're the instruments of furthering something that's never been here before. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-503727-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I know its late, but some prophets like Jonah were sent to preach to pagans
like in Ninevah for some reason. It's weird in that they repented immediately.
"Through much of the Hebrew Scriptures, we see such lesser prophets castigating
members of the governing institutions of Israel, the idolatrous kings, the lax
priesthood and the corrupt judges for their failings."
Jonah is a prophet, but did no such thing. Also, the exile prophets who
preached in exile to their foreign societies.
So prophets could theoretically prophecy to people outside of the Baha'i domain.
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are a couple of points which might be added to what Brent has said.
On page 111 of **World Order of Baha'u'llah** the Guardian quotes 'Abdu'l-Baha:
" In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by
Bahá'u'lláh, He ('Abdu'l-Baha) reveals the following: "The station which he who
hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one
ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as
Manifestations 'endowed with constancy.'" "
As such, it is easy to **imagine** the House of Justice in the future
(posthumously?) referring to some believer as having distinguished him/herself
to such a degree in the realms of faith, spirituality and service that they had
risen to such a station.
Thinking Biblically however,we read in Numbers 12:1-8 that prophets ("not
endowed with constancy") receive their inspiration through enigmatic dreams and
visions rather than with face-to-face clarity as do the Manifestations. Through
much of the Hebrew Scriptures, we see such lesser prophets castigating members
of the governing institutions of Israel, the idolatrous kings, the lax
priesthood and the corrupt judges for their failings. In light of the
sacredness of the System established under the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and in
accordance with the Will and Testament, clearly it would not be a good thing
for the Baha'i community to have the institutions of the Faith or their members
critiqued by self- designated "prophets" getting up on their hind legs and
berating them on the basis of their private inspirations, revelations, dreams
and visions. That would indeed "spread disorder in the land after it had been
well-ordered.(ESW, p. 97)"
Gary
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Re: Lesser Prophets - necesary bad people
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, The number 12 is important in religion, it seems it has to do with the number 360 (in the extreme, Zeitgeist video says religion is false and is all about about Zodiac). It seems that 24 elders is not an institution. The 24 elders were special and very important souls. Searching on line in the King James Bible about 24 elders, make this result: http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/kjv2www?specfile=/texts/english/religion/kjv/kjv-pub.o2w&grouping=match&docs=text&query=elders&sample=1-100&id=KjvReve Revelation, chapter 4 four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they Revelation, chapter 4 four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, Revelation, chapter 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of Revelation, chapter 5 the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having s Revelation, chapter 5 four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one Revelation, chapter 5 e beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand tim Revelation, chapter 5 four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for Revelation, chapter 7 and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the thron Revelation, chapter 7 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which Revelation, chapter 11 four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell u Revelation, chapter 14 beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hu Revelation, chapter 19 four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped I also think it is interesting that, in religion there are always the "dark side", people necesary bad. The question is: if they are bad because the will of God (there should be always bad people to accomplish the misions of the chosen ones) or they are bad because they voluntary want so. I make this question because in the Bible-Exodus we found repetedly God "hardened Pharaoh's heart". --- El vie, 2/12/10, Susan Maneck escribió: De: Susan Maneck Asunto: Re: Lesser Prophets A: "Baha'i Studies" Fecha: viernes, 12 de febrero de 2010, 01:21 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think the 24 Guardians are different from the subject of 24 elders. Shahram, If you know of any place where Abdu'l-Baha says anything about 'guardians' outside of his interpretation of the 24 Elders mentioned in the Book of Revelation please feel free to post the source here. >As one familiar with the subject may understand,the Imams came after the >Islam's Prophet(generation after generration) Are you admitting finally you are a Shi'ite Muslim and not a Baha'i? >.In the words of Master,in comparing the 24 Guardians with the Shia Imams, > I think that Guardians shoud have come after Bahaullah,and AbdulBaha . Except the same passage also compares the Twelve Imams to the Twelve Apostles. These were chosen during Jesus only lifetime, they did not come in succession like the Imams. They were more like the Letters of the Living. >In this way,He called Shoghi in his W&T as Guardian( wali amr ).Shoghi was >assumed as >the first one. The next were to come. There would have been more Guardians had Shoghi Effendi produced an heir. That doesn't mean they were supposed to be 24 of them. There is nothing in the Writings which indicates this. In fact, in the Kitab-i Aqdas Baha'u'llah explicitly refers to the possibility that His line might die out before the establishment of the Universal House of Justice. Surely He wasn't anticipating that it would take 24 generations for us to have a House of Justice! > But the 24 elders(19 of them Bab,and the Horuf-e- Hayy;and the next 5 to come > in the unknown future), can by no means be compared with the Shia Imams,with > their exactly >defined and explained responsibilities. I suppose you can argue that the 12 Imams can't be compared to the 12 Apostles, but Abdu'l-Baha does so, in that same passage. He also compares to them to the twelve sons of Jacob. Now, how does that fit if this passage carries the meaning you want to assign to it? > If one assumes that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see > this a sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there > has been a bada'. If you want to look for evidence of bada', stick to the Will and Testament. Abdu'l-Baha never refers to the institution of the Guardianship outside of that document. I don't have any problem with the concept of bada' as it relates to the Guardianship. Abdu'l-Baha clearly anticipated future Guardians but He never said anything about 24. As I mentioned, while the Guardian is called Vali Amr, vali can just as easily refer to any
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > If one assumes > that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see this a > sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there > has been a bada'. But we have only your word for it, that there ever were 23 guardians promised to follow Shoghi Effendi. The 24 "guardians and holy souls" that Abdu'l-Baha refers to in Some Answered Questions page 57, according to a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, are "the Bab, the eighteen Letters of the Living, and five others" (Directives from the Guardian page 22). If you want to make up your own "prophecy" different to this, and then say this has been subject to bada', go ahead. Why would anyone take you seriously? This would just show you are not a very good prophet Sen sen.so...@casema.nl senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- Sen McGlinn*** All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487132-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think the 24 Guardians are different from the subject of 24 elders. Shahram, If you know of any place where Abdu'l-Baha says anything about 'guardians' outside of his interpretation of the 24 Elders mentioned in the Book of Revelation please feel free to post the source here. >As one familiar with the subject may understand,the Imams came after the >Islam's Prophet(generation after generration) Are you admitting finally you are a Shi'ite Muslim and not a Baha'i? >.In the words of Master,in comparing the 24 Guardians with the Shia Imams, > I think that Guardians shoud have come after Bahaullah,and AbdulBaha . Except the same passage also compares the Twelve Imams to the Twelve Apostles. These were chosen during Jesus only lifetime, they did not come in succession like the Imams. They were more like the Letters of the Living. >In this way,He called Shoghi in his W&T as Guardian( wali amr ).Shoghi was >assumed as >the first one. The next were to come. There would have been more Guardians had Shoghi Effendi produced an heir. That doesn't mean they were supposed to be 24 of them. There is nothing in the Writings which indicates this. In fact, in the Kitab-i Aqdas Baha'u'llah explicitly refers to the possibility that His line might die out before the establishment of the Universal House of Justice. Surely He wasn't anticipating that it would take 24 generations for us to have a House of Justice! > But the 24 elders(19 of them Bab,and the Horuf-e- Hayy;and the next 5 to come > in the unknown future), can by no means be compared with the Shia Imams,with > their exactly >defined and explained responsibilities. I suppose you can argue that the 12 Imams can't be compared to the 12 Apostles, but Abdu'l-Baha does so, in that same passage. He also compares to them to the twelve sons of Jacob. Now, how does that fit if this passage carries the meaning you want to assign to it? > If one assumes that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see > this a sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there > has been a bada'. If you want to look for evidence of bada', stick to the Will and Testament. Abdu'l-Baha never refers to the institution of the Guardianship outside of that document. I don't have any problem with the concept of bada' as it relates to the Guardianship. Abdu'l-Baha clearly anticipated future Guardians but He never said anything about 24. As I mentioned, while the Guardian is called Vali Amr, vali can just as easily refer to any saintly soul and it is obvious from the context that it in the passage from SAQ. Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487105-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, many thanks for yr clarifications.But pls note as below: I think the 24 Guardians are different from the subject of 24 elders.As one familiar with the subject may understand,the Imams came after the Islam's Prophet(generation after generration).In the words of Master,in comparing the 24 Guardians with the Shia Imams, I think that Guardians shoud have come after Bahaullah,and AbdulBaha .In this way,He called Shoghi in his W&T as Guardian( wali amr ).Shoghi was assumed as the first one. The next were to come. But the 24 elders(19 of them Bab,and the Horuf-e- Hayy;and the next 5 to come in the unknown future), can by no means be compared with the Shia Imams,with their exactly defined and explained responsibilities. If one assumes that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see this a sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there has been a bada'. Yours, Rohani --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Sen & Sonja wrote: From: Sen & Sonja Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets To: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 3:55 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 9 Feb 2010 at 23:26, shahram rohani wrote: > according to the words of Abdul-Baha,we were supposed to have 24 > Guardians, The reference it to a verse in Revelation: "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God." of which Abdu'l-Baha says : In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. ... But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. (Some Answered Questions, 57) The Guardian was apparently not one of these "guardians and holy souls," or if he was, he did not tell his secretary about. The secretary writes: "Regarding the four and twenty elders: The Master in a Tablet, stated that they are they Báb, the 18 Letters of the Living and five others who would be known in the future. So far we do not know who these five other are." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 22, 1934: Bahai News, No. 171, November 1944, p. 2) In fact we do know the name of one other: Haji Mirza Muhammad-Taqi, the Vakilu'd-Dawlih and cousin of the Bab, a distinguished believer who was designated by 'Abdu'l-Baha as one of the 'four and twenty elders' in this verse of the Book of Revelation (see Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, 240) and was given the task of arranging for the election of the Universal House of Justice (Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, 241) should that become necessary (presumably meaning, if Abdu'l-Baha was dead or unable to lead the community). He directs Muhammad-Taqi to gather the Afnan and the Hands of the Cause and make the necessary arrangements. The fact that we do not know the names of 4 more of the elders does not mean that God has changed his plan (Bada') - it just means He has not told us all the details (yet). God often does that Sen senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486189-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487104-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv When asking of prophets and prophachy, Westerners tend to mean things like the ability to predict the future, perform miracles, give messages from God, gain knowledge from God, etc... From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 5:54:57 PM Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Oh, language is one the most sublte barriers to understanding concepts. > English speaker think prophet is associated with prophecy, fortelling the > future. So, do Baha'i believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer > like Joseph Smith II? I'm not sure that is even a station, Stephen. When Shoghi Effendi's secretary referred to Joseph Smith as a 'seer' I suspect what was meant was that he was tune with the spirit of the age. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486892-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487037-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In Shi'a Twelver Islam stations are as follows: 1. Messenger (Rasul) 2. Prophet (Nabi) 3. People who can communicate with angels (?) 4. Ordinary people (NOTA) From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 5:54:57 PM Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Oh, language is one the most sublte barriers to understanding concepts. > English speaker think prophet is associated with prophecy, fortelling the > future. So, do Baha'i believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer > like Joseph Smith II? I'm not sure that is even a station, Stephen. When Shoghi Effendi's secretary referred to Joseph Smith as a 'seer' I suspect what was meant was that he was tune with the spirit of the age. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486892-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487030-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Persians tend to use Hafiz for fortune-telling but that's just >> superstition. > > > Wow! Those are fighting words ;-} We don't call him the Tongue of Unseen > for nothing. I figured that would get a rise out of some Persian here. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486948-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Oh, language is one the most sublte barriers to understanding concepts. > English speaker think prophet is associated with prophecy, fortelling the > future. So, do Baha'i believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer > like Joseph Smith II? I'm not sure that is even a station, Stephen. When Shoghi Effendi's secretary referred to Joseph Smith as a 'seer' I suspect what was meant was that he was tune with the spirit of the age. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486892-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > Persians tend to use Hafiz for fortune-telling but that's just > superstition. Wow! Those are fighting words ;-} We don't call him the Tongue of Unseen for nothing. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486852-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > One spiritual future bahá'í prophet (in the sense he/she see the future) > could warn, of course without conferred authority, like Hafiz in muslims. Is > true? I'm sure we will have poets and mystics if that's what you mean. Persians tend to use Hafiz for fortune-telling but that's just superstition. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486844-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Ms Megan Orr I appreciate your kind and learned response. I had a day off and so i did a bit of posting but you have taken it Ms Megan to a higher realm of discourse. When you try to take a panoramic view of religions you are almost forced to see two views as on a pendulum Early Judaism with Its Law and Legalism. later Prophets Isaiah Micah with ethics as dominating 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. (King James Bible, Isaiah) jeremiah 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the LORD (King James Bible, Jeremiah) in the Christian Dispensation too there is the ethical dimension in the Sermon on the Mount and the Good Samaritan parable and concurrently there is the high theology of John and its later efflorescence in the ontological arguments that were the basis of the Creeds of Nicea and Chalcedon. you get this polarity in all the past ... in the Faith of Baha'u'llah you have a balance that is based on the Covenant and the guidance of the Head of the Faith _ Its "Centre of the Covenant" "The power of the Covenant is as the heat of the sun which quickeneth and promoteth the development of all created things on earth. The light of the Covenant, in like manner, is the educator of the minds, the spirits, the hearts and souls of men." To this same Covenant He has in His writings referred as the "Conclusive Testimony," the "Universal Balance," the "Magnet of God's grace," the "Upraised Standard," the "Irrefutable Testament," "the all-mighty Covenant, the like of which the sacred Dispensations of the past have never witnessed" and "one of the distinctive features of this most mighty cycle." (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 238) The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 19) with this perspective I do not think any Bahai entertains the thought of being a lesser prophet maybe some may entertain the thought of being a MONARCH! but not a prophet **Blessed the one who hath remained faithful to the Covenant of God, and woe betide him who hath broken it and disbelieved in Him, the Knower of secrets. Say: This is the Day of Bounty! Bestir yourselves that I may make you monarchs in the realms of My Kingdom. If ye follow Me, ye shall behold that which ye were promised, and I will make you My companions in the dominion of My majesty and the intimates of My beauty in the heaven of My power forevermore. If ye rebel against Me, I will in My clemency endure it patiently, that haply ye may awaken and rise up from the couch of heedlessness. Thus hath My mercy encompassed you. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 65) with humility and kind regards _ From: bounce-486780-27...@list.jccc.edu [mailto:bounce-486780-27...@list.jccc.edu] On Behalf Of Megan Orr Sent: 11 February 2010 18:26 To: Baha'i Studies Cc: Stephen Gray; Susan Maneck; Brent Poirier Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi all. I'm new to this site. >From my study of the religions currently known to us, I have found that there are many examples that Supreme Manifestations of the Spirit of God (Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah) presented many examples of how to achieve the "heaven on earth" by being a service to the communities in which they were. All of them have exhorted the people to be a succor unto the poor, needy, widows, children, etc. There is a formula here that is more than just an "action" that one can list on a resume of good works. It is an attitude that generates and accompanies the service that result in the true, lasting changes to a society that propels in forward. From what I can tell (and this is merely my speculation), it wasn't any sense of foretelling that made these figures the great influences on society that they became. It wasn&#
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi all. I'm new to this site. >From my study of the religions currently known to us, I have found that there are many examples that Supreme Manifestations of the Spirit of God (Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah) presented many examples of how to achieve the "heaven on earth" by being a service to the communities in which they were. All of them have exhorted the people to be a succor unto the poor, needy, widows, children, etc. There is a formula here that is more than just an "action" that one can list on a resume of good works. It is an attitude that generates and accompanies the service that result in the true, lasting changes to a society that propels in forward. From what I can tell (and this is merely my speculation), it wasn't any sense of foretelling that made these figures the great influences on society that they became. It wasn't miraculous abilities, but it was their spirit of service, their ability to give and receive love to/with *everyone* (not just those who were part of the same circles as them) that drew people in and propelled those same people to attempt the same station of love as the Manifestation. From what I've read, it was the "lesser" prophets who did any foretelling of what could happen to humanity if we didn't follow the example of the Manifestation. On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Khazeh wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stephen Gray > So, do Baha'i s believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer like > Joseph Smith II? > Stephen Gray, dear brother on this list. > In this "Dispensation", in this Day of Baha'u'llah, the "Day of God" we are > not encouraged to seek stations. > In the Tablet of Wisdom (A Tablet revealed by ar-Rah.maan) God the > All-Merciful He says:*** Let each morn be better than its eve and each > morrow richer than its yesterday. > (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138) > *** > But this sense of betterness [faz.l] => merit is in service & virtue ** > Man's merit lieth in service and virtue and not in the pageantry of wealth > and riches. > (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138) > ** > all other "stations" are subservient/dependent/ on the station of > servitude. > ** Cling, O ye people of Baha, to the cord of servitude unto God, the True > One, for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written > and preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved > Tablet.** Beware lest the dwellers on earth hinder you from this glorious > and exalted station. Thus have We exhorted you in most of Our Epistles and > now in this, Our Holy Tablet, above which hath beamed the Day-Star of the > Laws of the Lord, your God, the Powerful, the All-Wise. > (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages: 62-63) > > notice dear Stephen > for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written and > preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved > Tablet.** ** > > so by studying deeply as you are, "your station" as a seeker a la "The Book > of Certitude" will be revealed. > If for example dear Dr Susan Maneck or Brent Poirier confirm me, you, and > others in our knowledge of the Covenant they are providing a "service" and > their stations as "servants" is revealed. > > our highest station is clinging unto the cord of servitude. > [al-'ubuudiyyat] whose most perfect Exemplar was the 'Abdu'-Baha. > believe me i am not writing this in a patronizing way or being nice to > Susan or Brent_ rather as exemplifying a point that the "Son of God" the > "Suffering Servant" showed 2000 years ago > **John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart > of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 13:3 Jesus knowing that the > Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, > and went to God; 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; > and took a towel, and girded himself. > > John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the > disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. > > 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost > thou wash my feet? 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou > knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. > > 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered > him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. > > 13:9 Simon
RE: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi,
Dear Khazeh, if I understand you are saying that the so called "spiritual
station" is related to service and virtue.
And a way of service is teaching and sharing knowledge related to the
Covenant (in your example of Susan and Brent).
That is interesting, and I think there are many ways of serving. For a busy
bahá'í ( a bahá'í that has little time, because he/she has to work a lot, etc.)
he has always the option to contribute to the fund and teaching with the most
powerful way: the example.
--- El jue 11-feb-10, Khazeh escribió:
De: Khazeh
Asunto: RE: Lesser Prophets
A: "Baha'i Studies"
Cc: "'Stephen Gray'" , "'Susan Maneck'"
, "'Brent Poirier'"
Fecha: jueves, 11 febrero, 2010, 10:54 am
#yiv568819263 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Behalf Of Stephen Gray
So, do Baha'i s believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer like
Joseph Smith II?
Stephen Gray, dear brother on this list.
In this "Dispensation", in this Day of Baha'u'llah, the "Day of God" we are not
encouraged to seek stations.
In the Tablet of Wisdom (A Tablet revealed by ar-Rah.maan) God the
All-Merciful He says:*** Let each morn be better than its eve and each morrow
richer than its yesterday.
(Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138)
***
But this sense of betterness [faz.l] => merit is in service & virtue ** Man's
merit lieth in service and virtue and not in the pageantry of wealth and
riches.
(Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138)
**
all other "stations" are subservient/dependent/ on the station of servitude..
** Cling, O ye people of Baha, to the cord of servitude unto God, the True One,
for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written and
preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved
Tablet.** Beware lest the dwellers on earth hinder you from this glorious and
exalted station. Thus have We exhorted you in most of Our Epistles and now in
this, Our Holy Tablet, above which hath beamed the Day-Star of the Laws of the
Lord, your God, the Powerful, the All-Wise.
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages: 62-63)
notice dear Stephen
for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written and
preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved
Tablet.** **
so by studying deeply as you are, "your station" as a seeker a la "The Book of
Certitude" will be revealed.
If for example dear Dr Susan Maneck or Brent Poirier confirm me, you, and
others in our knowledge of the Covenant they are providing a "service" and
their stations as "servants" is revealed.
our highest station is clinging unto the cord of servitude. [al-'ubuudiyyat]
whose most perfect Exemplar was the 'Abdu'-Baha.
believe me i am not writing this in a patronizing way or being nice to Susan or
Brent_ rather as exemplifying a point that the "Son of God" the "Suffering
Servant" showed 2000 years ago
**John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of
Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father
had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to
God; 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel,
and girded himself.
John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the
disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou
wash my feet? 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not
now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him,
If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and
my head.
13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet,
but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all
clean.
13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was
set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13:13 Ye
call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to
wash one another's feet.
(King James Bible, John)
hopefully your servant too
khazeh
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RE: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Behalf Of Stephen Gray So, do Baha'i s believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer like Joseph Smith II? Stephen Gray, dear brother on this list. In this "Dispensation", in this Day of Baha'u'llah, the "Day of God" we are not encouraged to seek stations. In the Tablet of Wisdom (A Tablet revealed by ar-Rah.maan) God the All-Merciful He says:*** Let each morn be better than its eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday. (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138) *** But this sense of betterness [faz.l] => merit is in service & virtue ** Man's merit lieth in service and virtue and not in the pageantry of wealth and riches. (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 138) ** all other "stations" are subservient/dependent/ on the station of servitude. ** Cling, O ye people of Baha, to the cord of servitude unto God, the True One, for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written and preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved Tablet.** Beware lest the dwellers on earth hinder you from this glorious and exalted station. Thus have We exhorted you in most of Our Epistles and now in this, Our Holy Tablet, above which hath beamed the Day-Star of the Laws of the Lord, your God, the Powerful, the All-Wise. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages: 62-63) notice dear Stephen for **thereby your stations shall be made manifest, your names written and preserved, your ranks raised and your memory exalted in the Preserved Tablet.** ** so by studying deeply as you are, "your station" as a seeker a la "The Book of Certitude" will be revealed. If for example dear Dr Susan Maneck or Brent Poirier confirm me, you, and others in our knowledge of the Covenant they are providing a "service" and their stations as "servants" is revealed. our highest station is clinging unto the cord of servitude. [al-'ubuudiyyat] whose most perfect Exemplar was the 'Abdu'-Baha. believe me i am not writing this in a patronizing way or being nice to Susan or Brent_ rather as exemplifying a point that the "Son of God" the "Suffering Servant" showed 2000 years ago **John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. (King James Bible, John) hopefully your servant too khazeh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486708-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, One spiritual future bahá'í prophet (in the sense he/she see the future) could warn, of course without conferred authority, like Hafiz in muslims. Is true? --- El jue 11-feb-10, Stephen Gray escribió: De: Stephen Gray Asunto: Re: Lesser Prophets A: "Baha'i Studies" Fecha: jueves, 11 febrero, 2010, 9:21 am The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, language is one the most sublte barriers to understanding concepts. English speaker think prophet is associated with prophecy, fortelling the future. So, do Baha'i believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer like Joseph Smith II? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 3:17:10 PM Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Or do you think it is possible some bahá'ís could be spiritual enough to make > prophecies about many issues, for example the future of the >community, or > something related to the coming of next Prophet, etc. Dear Hasan, I'm not thinking of prophets in the sense of foretelling the future. The term nabi (or navi in the Hebrew) comes from a word meaning 'to warn.' The lesser prophets were warners, whose function it was to tell the kings of Israel and other elites where they were going wrong. My interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement is that no one should serve this function in relationship to the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486451-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486645-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486687-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, language is one the most sublte barriers to understanding concepts. English speaker think prophet is associated with prophecy, fortelling the future. So, do Baha'i believe a Baha'i can acheive the station of a seer like Joseph Smith II? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 3:17:10 PM Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Or do you think it is possible some bahá'ís could be spiritual enough to make > prophecies about many issues, for example the future of the >community, or > something related to the coming of next Prophet, etc. Dear Hasan, I'm not thinking of prophets in the sense of foretelling the future. The term nabi (or navi in the Hebrew) comes from a word meaning 'to warn.' The lesser prophets were warners, whose function it was to tell the kings of Israel and other elites where they were going wrong. My interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement is that no one should serve this function in relationship to the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486451-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486645-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > But isn't that precisely the function that the Guardian envisioned for the > office of the Guardianship, namely, to warn the House of Justice of > decisions that could potentially conflict with the spirit of Baha'u'llah's > revelation? Dear Ahang, Yes, I think if the Guardianship had continued they might well have played a role similar to the Lesser Prophets but instead it what happened was precisely as Abdu'l-Baha described. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486460-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But isn't that precisely the function that the Guardian envisioned for the office of the Guardianship, namely, to warn the House of Justice of decisions that could potentially conflict with the spirit of Baha'u'llah's revelation? "... is bound to insist upon a reconsideration by them [fellow House members] of any enactment he conscientiously believes to conflict with the meaning and to depart from the spirit of Bahá'u'lláh's revealed utterances." World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 150 Using your definition -- and I'm not accepting it as yet -- the Guardian was a nabi. On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Or do you think it is possible some bahá'ís could be spiritual enough to > make prophecies about many issues, for example the future of the >community, > or something related to the coming of next Prophet, etc. > > Dear Hasan, > > I'm not thinking of prophets in the sense of foretelling the future. > The term nabi (or navi in the Hebrew) comes from a word meaning 'to > warn.' The lesser prophets were warners, whose function it was to tell > the kings of Israel and other elites where they were going wrong. My > interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement is that no one should serve > this function in relationship to the Universal House of Justice. > > warmest, Susan > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-486451-10928...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486454-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Or do you think it is possible some bahá'ís could be spiritual enough to make > prophecies about many issues, for example the future of the >community, or > something related to the coming of next Prophet, etc. Dear Hasan, I'm not thinking of prophets in the sense of foretelling the future. The term nabi (or navi in the Hebrew) comes from a word meaning 'to warn.' The lesser prophets were warners, whose function it was to tell the kings of Israel and other elites where they were going wrong. My interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement is that no one should serve this function in relationship to the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486451-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Do you mean that prophets will not exist? Or do you think it is possible some bahá'ís could be spiritual enough to make prophecies about many issues, for example the future of the community, or something related to the coming of next Prophet, etc. Thanks --- El mar 9-feb-10, Susan Maneck escribió: De: Susan Maneck Asunto: Re: Lesser Prophets A: "Baha'i Studies" Fecha: martes, 9 febrero, 2010, 3:54 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think that criticism should be welcome, and treated on its merits, > without regard for where it comes from. Not if it is criticism of the Universal House of Justice. Abdu'l-Baha is quite clear that this 'prophetic' function is disallowed: We have noted what thou didst write to Jinab-i-Ibn-Abhar, and thy question regarding the verse: 'Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.' . . . The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486104-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486355-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 9 Feb 2010 at 23:26, shahram rohani wrote: > according to the words of Abdul-Baha,we were supposed to have 24 > Guardians, The reference it to a verse in Revelation: "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God." of which Abdu'l-Baha says : In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. ... But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. (Some Answered Questions, 57) The Guardian was apparently not one of these "guardians and holy souls," or if he was, he did not tell his secretary about. The secretary writes: "Regarding the four and twenty elders: The Master in a Tablet, stated that they are they Báb, the 18 Letters of the Living and five others who would be known in the future. So far we do not know who these five other are." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 22, 1934: Bahai News, No. 171, November 1944, p. 2) In fact we do know the name of one other: Haji Mirza Muhammad-Taqi, the Vakilu'd-Dawlih and cousin of the Bab, a distinguished believer who was designated by 'Abdu'l-Baha as one of the 'four and twenty elders' in this verse of the Book of Revelation (see Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, 240) and was given the task of arranging for the election of the Universal House of Justice (Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, 241) should that become necessary (presumably meaning, if Abdu'l-Baha was dead or unable to lead the community). He directs Muhammad-Taqi to gather the Afnan and the Hands of the Cause and make the necessary arrangements. The fact that we do not know the names of 4 more of the elders does not mean that God has changed his plan (Bada') - it just means He has not told us all the details (yet). God often does that Sen senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486189-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Stephen, according to the words of Abdul-Baha,we were supposed to have 24 Guardians,from the masculine descendents of Bahaullah.But as AbdulBaha had no son [and excommunication of Muhammad Ali];and since Shoghi Effendi had no child at all, it is believed that there has been a change [Bada' ] . Yours/Rohani --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Stephen Gray wrote: From: Stephen Gray Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets To: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 12:21 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the difference between several of the dispensations? Does the Baha'i Faith have equaivalents to Old Testament prophets? New Testament apostles? Shi'a Islam Imams? etc __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486187-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think that criticism should be welcome, and treated on its merits, > without regard for where it comes from. Not if it is criticism of the Universal House of Justice. Abdu'l-Baha is quite clear that this 'prophetic' function is disallowed: We have noted what thou didst write to Jinab-i-Ibn-Abhar, and thy question regarding the verse: 'Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.' . . . The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486104-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What is the difference between several of the dispensations? Does the Baha'i > Faith have equaivalents to Old Testament prophets? New Testament apostles? > Shi'a Islam Imams? etc Dear Stephen, The Guardian would be the equivalent of Shi'a Imams. Given 'Abdu'l-Baha insistence that every Baha'i must be submissive to the Universal House of Justice, I don't see how we could have lesser prophets like those of the Old Testament. As for Apostles, I think the Hands of the Cause would be the equivalent of those. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486092-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the difference between several of the dispensations? Does the Baha'i Faith have equaivalents to Old Testament prophets? New Testament apostles? Shi'a Islam Imams? etc From: Brent Poirier To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 7:51:14 AM Subject: re: Lesser Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Another thought on the statement by Abdu'l-Baha that in this day "The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations 'endowed with constancy.'" This reminds me of the statement in the Book of Certitude that one righteous work in this Day of Days, exceeds the combined rank of all the prior good deeds performed by all human beings throughout the untold reaches of time. This has to do with the greatness of Baha'u'llah and His Revelation. "One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised -- nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison!" I also personally feel that there may be a difference between the rank of a Lesser Prophet, and the functions of one, as David has pointed out -- where the functions of the Lesser Prophets in the past included being judges of others. There are many expressions in the Writings of the greatness which can be attained in this Day, through the light borrowed from the greatness of the Manifestation. "The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age." (The Bab, Farewell Address to the Letters of the Living, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 93) "...the Letters of the Living, the Báb's chosen disciples, whose station is ten thousand times more glorious than any which the apostles of old have attained..." (Baha'u'llah, quoted in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 108) Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485796-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485970-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Another thought on the statement by Abdu'l-Baha that in this day "The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations 'endowed with constancy.'" This reminds me of the statement in the Book of Certitude that one righteous work in this Day of Days, exceeds the combined rank of all the prior good deeds performed by all human beings throughout the untold reaches of time. This has to do with the greatness of Baha'u'llah and His Revelation. "One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised -- nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison!" I also personally feel that there may be a difference between the rank of a Lesser Prophet, and the functions of one, as David has pointed out -- where the functions of the Lesser Prophets in the past included being judges of others. There are many expressions in the Writings of the greatness which can be attained in this Day, through the light borrowed from the greatness of the Manifestation. "The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age." (The Bab, Farewell Address to the Letters of the Living, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 93) "...the Letters of the Living, the Báb's chosen disciples, whose station is ten thousand times more glorious than any which the apostles of old have attained..." (Baha'u'llah, quoted in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 108) Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485796-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sen, I agree entirely, both with respect to criticism and with respect to dreams and intuitions. I agree that criticism offered from a detached and consultative position are vital to the health of any collective endeavor. I agree that tapping the power of dreams and intuitions are necessary the full utilization of the mental powers with which humans have been endowed. Thus, drawing on dreams and intuitions as sources of critical ideas which are in turn offered in consultation is eminently fair. I don't see a controversy with any of this. My concern is with the presumption of superior wisdom and authority entailed by even an implied claim of lesser prophethood. Dreams and visions can often carry with them a powerful sense of conviction. To uncompromisingly and insistently pursue that conviction--as if it carried unquestionable authority outside of one's personal sphere of control, a sense of the Biblical/prophetic "Thus saith the Lord..."--is, I believe, disruptive and disunifying. It is that presumption of individual authority and the ad hominem nature of many prophetic diatribes in the Bible which suggest to me that lesser prophets in the Biblical sense are probably not desirable or to be expected in a future Baha'i society. Gary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485779-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 8 Feb 2010 at 16:21, Gary Selchert wrote: > ... clearly it would not be a good thing for the > Baha'i community to have the institutions of the Faith or their > members critiqued by self- designated "prophets" getting up on their > hind legs and berating them on the basis of their private > inspirations, revelations, dreams and visions. That would indeed > "spread disorder in the land after it had been well-ordered.(ESW, p. > 97)" I think that criticism should be welcome, and treated on its merits, without regard for where it comes from. Biting criticism is a catastrophe, but the same goes for anything we speak or do without love. Criticism in itself tests and strengthens ideas, makes the old thing new and living, and may introduce the innovation we need. It is a great preventative for stagnation. Those who love literature most, do literary criticism precisely to keep the old text alive and speaking to us, and those who love religion most, critique it. Those who love comfort most, don't. We cannot disregard dreams, intuitions and other odd states of consciousness: I have them myself and the intuitions in particular sometimes steer me in very fruitful directions, that can then be worked out and communicated rationally. Abdu'l-Baha says: "When man's soul is rarified and cleansed, spiritual links are established, and from these bonds sensations felt by the heart are produced. The human heart resembleth a mirror. When this is purified human hearts are attuned and reflect one another, and thus spiritual emotions are generated. This is like the world of dreams when man is detached from things which are tangible and experienceth those of the spirit. What amazing laws operate, and what remarkable discoveries are made! And it may even be that detailed communications are registered... (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 108) Shoghi Effendi's words and citation refer to "the the true believer" "who hath truly recognized this Revelation" --- a being as rare as the philosopher's stone. That marks the end-point of the human station, not the everyday reality of our lives. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn senmcglinn.wordpress.com *** Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485769-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are a couple of points which might be added to what Brent has said.
On page 111 of **World Order of Baha'u'llah** the Guardian quotes 'Abdu'l-Baha:
" In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by
Bahá'u'lláh, He ('Abdu'l-Baha) reveals the following: "The station which he who
hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one
ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as
Manifestations 'endowed with constancy.'" "
As such, it is easy to **imagine** the House of Justice in the future
(posthumously?) referring to some believer as having distinguished him/herself
to such a degree in the realms of faith, spirituality and service that they had
risen to such a station.
Thinking Biblically however,we read in Numbers 12:1-8 that prophets ("not
endowed with constancy") receive their inspiration through enigmatic dreams and
visions rather than with face-to-face clarity as do the Manifestations. Through
much of the Hebrew Scriptures, we see such lesser prophets castigating members
of the governing institutions of Israel, the idolatrous kings, the lax
priesthood and the corrupt judges for their failings. In light of the
sacredness of the System established under the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and in
accordance with the Will and Testament, clearly it would not be a good thing
for the Baha'i community to have the institutions of the Faith or their members
critiqued by self- designated "prophets" getting up on their hind legs and
berating them on the basis of their private inspirations, revelations, dreams
and visions. That would indeed "spread disorder in the land after it had been
well-ordered.(ESW, p. 97)"
Gary
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Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen Gray asks: <dependent prophets like during the Old Testament times (ie Issiah, Jeremiah, Ezra, Nehemiah, Obadiah, Zafaniah, Zekariah,=A0Samuel, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, etc.)of the Dispensation of Moses? Jensenites say yes, but I do not know if the Universal House of Justice has ever discuccesd the issue of dependent prophecy in the Baha'i Faith. >> While to my knowledge in the literature I have read, the Baha'i Writings do not expressly answer the question you have asked, the answer is clearly given by implication. After many Major Prophets, there is often a series of Minor Prophets, such as those you have listed. However, in this Day, guidance is instead provided by the Covenant of Abdu'l-Baha, which directs the believers to seek their guidance from the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice. "All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error." These are the last words of the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha. I understand this to clearly state that there will be no other sources of guidance during this Dispensation, other than the House of Justice and the Guardian. “As regards the meaning of the Baha'i Covenant: The Guardian considers the existence of two forms of Covenant both of which are explicitly mentioned in the literature of the Cause. First is the covenant that every prophet makes with humanity or, more definitely, with His people that they will accept and follow the coming Manifestation who will be the reappearance of His reality. The second form of Covenant is such as the one Baha'u'llah made with His people that they should accept the Master. This is merely to establish and strengthen the succession of the series of Lights that appear after every Manifestation. Under the same category falls the Covenant the Master made with the Baha'is that they should accept His administration after Him” (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer dated October 21, 1932, US Baha'i News #80, January, 1934, pp. 5-6) In the Dispensation of Moses, the Lesser Prophets were guided by Him, i.e. by Moses. In this Dispensation, the House of Justice and Guardian are guided by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. “The Guardian's infallibility covers interpretation of the Revealed Word and its application. Likewise any instructions he may issue having to do with the protection of the Faith, or its well being must be closely obeyed, as he is infallible in the protection of the Faith. He is assured the guidance of both Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb, as the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá clearly reveals." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, August 20, 1956; Lights of Guidance, 2nd edition, p. 313, #1055) (The passage to which Shoghi Effendi refers, quoted here, also states that the Universal House of Justice is assured the guidance of both Baha'u'llah and the Bab:) /The sacred and youthful branch, the guardian of the Cause of God as well as the Universal House of Justice, to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One ..." /(The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11) I hope this is of service to you. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-484149-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
