Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
-- Original Message -- From: "Brent Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:32 - > > >>>Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes >>>down to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our >>>Writings, then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we >>>Baha'is read our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be >>>no other way. Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings >>>guarantees >this. It is a form of Idolatry.>> > >Ron, it's clear from your last word, where you have been reading. > >Just as critical thinking is an important part of examination of revealed >religious truth, so is evaluation of what others write about religion. Where >exactly are they leading you? To where they themselves are residing in >relation to the Cause. Is that where you want to be? That's the best they >can offer you. > >This is why Baha'u'llah repeatedly urges us to seek out those who have drunk >from the cup of the Holy Spirit, and to avoid those who create doubt. The >House has warned us about those former Baha'is who have a corrosive effect on >our faith. You seem determined to cast that advice aside. > >And as to how we should approach Baha'u'llah's word, the views of the Baha'is >are not the standard. The views of Baha'u'llah concerning His own Word are, >in my view, the standard, and "Bahá'u'lláh repeatedly affirms the absolute >integrity of His Writings as the Word of God." >(The Universal House of Justice, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 226) > >Best wishes, >Brent > > > >__ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st >News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net >New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Dear Brent, Your wrote: """Ron, it's clear from your last word, where you have been reading. Just as critical thinking is an important part of examination of revealed religious truth, so is evaluation of what others write about religion. Where exactly are they leading you? To where they themselves are residing in relation to the Cause. Is that where you want to be? That's the best they can offer you""" Sincerely, Brent, I would really like to know to whom or to what your referring to? I am not reading any other internet groups or lists, haven't for long time, and no books that aren't official Baha'i books. I have no idea who you think I am being influenced by. Susan has often expressed thoughts tha tI am being influenced by others and this bothers me because, for bettter of for worse, my thoughts are my own thought. \ \ As for idolatry; when I was a Crhistian, from about 1966-1994, considered that fundamentalist Christians idolized the Bible, and I often commented to them about this. So, you think I am influenced, but like it or not, some things are just true and different people will come up with them individually, it happens all the time. Please, though, tell me whop you think is influencing me so I can know. Seriously, it is very hard to know who one is supposed to avoid in this faith, since it is mostly by innuendo and no is named. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Hi, Gilberto, At 09:12 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: >>In my experience, that is not taken seriously by Christians, especially >>Protestants, as a real possiblity because the Law can't be kept. The whole >>idea is that if you try to keep the law you'll fail so you have to depend on >>God's grace. And the only way to get that grace is through Jesus.<< I have found a mixture of viewpoints. Some believe what you wrote. Others will say either that Jews or Hebrews could be saved by following the law prior to the first Advent or that they can be saved through the law even now. The second viewpoint is common among those Protestants, usually premillennial dispensationalists and Arminians, who reject replacement theology. Of course, replacement theology is a common perspective among Calvinists. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:17:10 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 05:22 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: > >>Even "non-liberal" Muslims would agree that in other times and places > >>people got into heaven through believing in Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, > >>etc. and not just Muhammad. Even "non-liberal" orthodox Muslims (like the > >>Asharis for instance) would say that if you haven't heard of Muhammad, you > >>still might be saved by God in his mercy. Even "non-liberal" Muslims would > >>say that Christianity, Judaism, and other religions had divine origins.<< > > And most Protestants, except for many Calvinists, hyper-Calvinists, and > extreme fundamentalists, would say the same about Jews being saved through > obedience to the Law. > In my experience, that is not taken seriously by Christians, especially Protestants, as a real possiblity because the Law can't be kept. The whole idea is that if you try to keep the law you'll fail so you have to depend on God's grace. And the only way to get that grace is through Jesus. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes down to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our Writings, then Islam is false. < Yet, if one is as fortunate, as was I, to read the Bible for understanding without reference to what people have said is the meaning of the Bible, one might be as fortunate, as was this servant, to pass from embracing the Bible only to embracing the Bible and the Qur'an as well. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we Baha'is read our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be no other way. Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings guarantees < And if anyone who has embraced the Qur'an reads it without reference to what people have said it means, and turns to God and God alone for understanding, one will find that the Qur'an alone is the Guiding Light to this Most Great Revelation It is a form of Idolatry.>> The Book, whatever Book can never becom an idol. However, an individual's belief about the meaning of that Book can indeed become an idol to him and to those who follow him. Mankind has a tendency to believe what it believes and then attribute what it believes to the Word of God. Is He not exalted above what they impute to Him? The Book is for the guidance of mankind to the recognition of God. If one has truly recognized that guidance and has truly recognized God then he will recognize Him on the Day of Resurrection. It is a grave error, to my mind, to follow the ways of men in the understanding of the ways of God and of what He has caused to be revealed.. Richard.. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of the scriptures we are familiar with. Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran etc. This is a concept that I heard discussed several years ago in a study of The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. I tend to believe it. It's interesting that it has made the rounds. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Gilberto, At 05:22 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: >>Even "non-liberal" Muslims would agree that in other times and places people >>got into heaven through believing in Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, etc. and >>not just Muhammad. Even "non-liberal" orthodox Muslims (like the Asharis for >>instance) would say that if you haven't heard of Muhammad, you still might be >>saved by God in his mercy. Even "non-liberal" Muslims would say that >>Christianity, Judaism, and other religions had divine origins.<< And most Protestants, except for many Calvinists, hyper-Calvinists, and extreme fundamentalists, would say the same about Jews being saved through obedience to the Law. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
>>Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes down >>to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our Writings, >>then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we Baha'is read >>our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be no other way. >>Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings guarantees this. It is a form of Idolatry.>> Ron, it's clear from your last word, where you have been reading. Just as critical thinking is an important part of examination of revealed religious truth, so is evaluation of what others write about religion. Where exactly are they leading you? To where they themselves are residing in relation to the Cause. Is that where you want to be? That's the best they can offer you. This is why Baha'u'llah repeatedly urges us to seek out those who have drunk from the cup of the Holy Spirit, and to avoid those who create doubt. The House has warned us about those former Baha'is who have a corrosive effect on our faith. You seem determined to cast that advice aside. And as to how we should approach Baha'u'llah's word, the views of the Baha'is are not the standard. The views of Baha'u'llah concerning His own Word are, in my view, the standard, and "Bahá'u'lláh repeatedly affirms the absolute integrity of His Writings as the Word of God." (The Universal House of Justice, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 226) Best wishes, Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:34:51 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>ANYONE who believes in God, the Last Day and does righteous deeds, will > >>surely meet with their reward. They have no reason to fear and neither will > >>they grieve.<< > Your liberal interpretation of this concept, perhaps influenced by your > interests in Tasawwuf, is not shared by all Muslims. > Even "non-liberal" Muslims would agree that in other times and places people got into heaven through believing in Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, etc. and not just Muhammad. Even "non-liberal" orthodox Muslims (like the Asharis for instance) would say that if you haven't heard of Muhammad, you still might be saved by God in his mercy. Even "non-liberal" Muslims would say that Christianity, Judaism, and other religions had divine origins. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Ron, At 02:35 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: >>Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes down >>to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our Writings, >>then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we Baha'is read >>our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false.<< I am not sure I follow you. Who is "we," and why would we regard Islam as false? >>It can be no other way. Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious >>writings guarantees this. It is a form of Idolatry.<< Well, even if a Baha'i believed in literal inerrancy, I don't see how she or he could say that Islam was a false religion. It is clearly referred to in our Scriptures and by Shoghi Effendi as a divinely revealed religion. >>That's why Baha'is reading our Writings as literally infallible and inerrant >>drive me crazy; the world for sure doesn't need another fundamentalist, >>exclusivist religion squabbling with all the rest.<< I agree with you, but I don't understand your conclusion. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Gilberto, At 03:19 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: >>Christians who focus on the above phrase "no one comes to the father except >>through me" tend to be exclusivists. They believe that in all of history, >>Jesus, in some form or another, is the only way to God.<< They could be either exclusivists (particularists) or inclusivists, but they would not be universalists. >>Past, Present, or future. Jesus is the only way.<< The point I raised before was that the "past" concept is mostly accepted by Calvinists. >>There are Christians who read the Old Testament and even see Jesus present >>back then, in the messianic prophecies, as the fourth person in the fiery >>furnace, as melchizadek, etc.<< Yes. That is because, just as Islam is qur'anocentric, most of the Christianities are christocentric. As a result, followers of most of the branches of these two religious networks have generally rejected anyone who spoke a message not regarded by them as agreeing with the Bible or the Qur'an. They are, in principle, closed to the possibility of a prophet, teacher, etc. *ever* appearing and presenting a message not in accordance with their understandings of their scriptures. >>For them, there can be prophets before Jesus earthly ministry. There can be >>prophets after Jesus' earthly ministry. But still, for them Jesus is the only >>way.<< And for most Muslims, Muhammad is the last Prophet. >>But Islam doesn't insist, as Christianity that Muhammad (saaws) is the only >>way to God. The Quran says that the believers, the Jews, the Christians, the >>Sabians...<< Yes, Islam and many of the Christianities present different types of particularism or absolutism. However, they are still what I would call particularistic and absolutist. >>ANYONE who believes in God, the Last Day and does righteous deeds, will >>surely meet with their reward. They have no reason to fear and neither will >>they grieve.<< Your liberal interpretation of this concept, perhaps influenced by your interests in Tasawwuf, is not shared by all Muslims. >>So you can believe that prophethood is over, but still recognize that there >>are multiple ways to God. Or you can believe like the Christians that >>prophethood continues, but Jesus is the only way to God.<< Again, as you must know, your progressive approach to Islam is not universal. However, progressivism is rare in most major religious networks (as I call them), e.g., Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. It *may* be a bit more common, but I don't know to what extent, in the Baha'i community. Point: Just as there are progressive Muslims, such as yourself, there are also progressive Christians, such as John Hick, who do not understand "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" as do more conservative Christians. >>The point I would also want to add is that just because a community might say >>that prophethood continues, that doesn't automatically make them >>open-minded.<< Of course, in principle, I agree with you, but open-minded to what? With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:35:26 -0800, Ronald Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark, I was a Christian. There is no doubt in may mind than you are right on > this. To a Christian, who > reads his Bible the same way as a Baha'i reads > our Writings, then > "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except > through Me," means that > any "way" or "religion" or "prophet" or "Manifestation" that comes after > Jesus Christ is false and not of > God. I realize that people may not believe me or think I'm being nitpicky but it doesn't particularly bother me. Here is one reason why I think there is a difference between the above passage and the Islamic doctrine of finality of prophethood. Christians who focus on the above phrase "no one comes to the father except through me" tend to be exclusivists. They believe that in all of history, Jesus, in some form or another, is the only way to God. Past, Present, or future. Jesus is the only way. There are Christians who read the Old Testament and even see Jesus present back then, in the messianic prophecies, as the fourth person in the fiery furnace, as melchizadek, etc. For them, there can be prophets before Jesus earthly ministry. There can be prophets after Jesus' earthly ministry. But still, for them Jesus is the only way. Constrast that with Islam. Islam says that Muhammad is the last prophet (recipient of revelation comissioned to tell other people). So there are no more prophets coming. But Islam doesn't insist, as Christianity that Muhammad (saaws) is the only way to God. The Quran says that the believers, the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians... ANYONE who believes in God, the Last Day and does righteous deeds, will surely meet with their reward. They have no reason to fear and neither will they grieve. So you can believe that prophethood is over, but still recognize that there are multiple ways to God. Or you can believe like the Christians that prophethood continues, but Jesus is the only way to God. The point I would also want to add is that just because a community might say that prophethood continues, that doesn't automatically make them open-minded. > > Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes down > to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our Writings, > then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we Baha'is read > our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be no other way. > Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings guarantees this. It > is a form of Idolatry. I think that literalism is a seperate concern from simply believing that the scriptures are true. I'm not insisting that everything in the Quran be read literally. But if you start with the Quran and sunnah I think it has certain implications about other religions. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Mark, I was a Christian. There is no doubt in may mind than you are right on this. To a Christian, who reads his Bible the same way as a Baha'i reads our Writings, then "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," means that any "way" or "religion" or "prophet" or "Manifestation" that comes after Jesus Christ is false and not of God. Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes down to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our Writings, then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we Baha'is read our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be no other way. Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings guarantees this. It is a form of Idolatry. That's why Baha'is reading our Writings as literally infallible and inerrant drive me crazy; the world for sure doesn't need another fundamentalist, exclusivist religion squabbling with all the rest. On Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 07:40PM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Gilberto, > >At 12:06 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote: >>>I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the >>>concept of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as >>>clear in Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most common argument >>>Christians have against Islam.<< > >You don't think that the statement, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No >one comes to the Father except through Me," is the principal argument used by >the fundamentalist and conservative evangelical websites against Islam? > > The exclusivity of Christ appears to be the most common objection raised by > these folks against, not only Muslims, but Buddhists, Hindus, Baha'is, and > just about every other religion I recall. > >With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net >"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman > > >__ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st >News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net >New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
Gilberto, At 12:06 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote: >>I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the concept >>of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as clear in >>Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most common argument Christians >>have against Islam.<< You don't think that the statement, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," is the principal argument used by the fundamentalist and conservative evangelical websites against Islam? The exclusivity of Christ appears to be the most common objection raised by these folks against, not only Muslims, but Buddhists, Hindus, Baha'is, and just about every other religion I recall. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
. From my side I think part of that process involves trying to state the Muslim side as clearly as I can and seeing what the response is, but I would think that's fair. An excellent way to state the Muslim side is to state the muslim side. That is, instead of stating the side of the organizaton, state the side of the believer, whose belief is found in its most pure form in the Qur'an. That Book is the Light of Guidance to the truth of all that appeared thereafter. 2:130 Say ye: "We believe in God, and that which hath been sent down to us, and that which hath been sent down to Abraham and Ismael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes: and that which hath been given to Moses and to Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord. No difference do we make between any of them: and to God are we resigned (Muslims)." (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 2 - The Cow) 136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord, we make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2) Such a procedure as recommended above would insist that one compare revelations. One cannot compare revelation with doctrine; because doctrine has been written by men. Nor can explanations from men adequately explain revelation.. One cannot even compare the Qur'an with hadith. Muhammad forbade His Words to be included in the Qur'an. The revelations should be compared to one another. Hence, compare the Qur'an with any of the revelations of Baha'u'llah if you would be fair. "Say, praised be God! He is God! all are His servants and all abide by His bidding!." Baha'u'llah Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:25:26 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical > Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical > Christian's > biggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy. > J: No, it is the logical conclusion that Jesus as the Son of God and Word of > God does not need to be replaced. Why would God replace His own word? Gilberto: No that's not it either. Gilberto: > Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the > crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top > of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus > several issues on top of that before you get to the idea of scripture being > continued. > J: Can you blame them? Gilberto: I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the concept of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as clear in Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most common argument Christians have against Islam. Gilberto:. > > Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being > suggested because if Jesus said ""Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My > words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind > of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been > finished AFTER Jesus. > > J: This is funny. From what I remember, the Qur'an was also written after > the passing of the Prophet. Gilberto: Not in the same sense. The Quran was all written down on materials before the passing of the prophet. It was recited in prayers before the passing of the prophet. The early Muslims already had a concept of a set of recited chapters called "the Quran" which was fixed before the passing of the prophet. Everything in the Quran was spoken and in some sense implicitly (and probably explicitly) approved before the passing of the prophet. The same thing can't be said about the New Testament. It's not like Jesus went around saying "and in the future according to Luke I will say" > So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are > coming, even for Christians. > J: The same must also then apply to the Qur'an. This proves your statement > incorrect. > No. I'm not saying that "the Word of the Lord will endure forever" or similar phrases imply an end to revelation anyway. It's like you are trying to disprove an argument I'm not even making. I would say "seal of the prophets" implies an end to prophethood. And I would say that there are many different hadith which imply that Muhammad was the last prophet and the last messenger. I don't think I would use other parts of the Quran to make that argument. > Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of > Jesus "passed away" > J: The fact that you have the Qur'an? I would suggest that the essence of Jesus teachings are found in Islam, even in the Quran. But also, from the Islamic side there is an alternative tradition of Jesus which is actually quite interesting and rich. There are two books which I have with alot of good examples. One is called "Jesus in the Eyes of the Sufis" and the other is more recent called "The Muslim Jesus" Some of the accounts come from hadith, but they also come from many other places. Some are reminiscent of things in the Bible but some are not in the Bible at all (although they share something of the same spirit). I was reading online that one of the Bahai central figures (Abdul-Baha I think) quoted one of these traditions. Where Jesus and his disciples were wandering and they came across the body of a dead rotting dog. And they all were commenting on the offensive smell. Except Jesus who said "But it's teeth are so white!" The one which is my favorite is the following: "One day as Jesus was walking through a village, some of the inhabitants began throwing insults at him. But Jesus answered by repeating prayers on their behalf. Later one of his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, you prayed for those people and wished them well. Why did you not invoke a curse upon them instead?" And Jesus is said to have replied, "I could only spend what I had in my purse." http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/bbooks.htm > It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form > beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular > culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of > the scriptures we are familiar with. > > Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran > etc. > > Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on the > above site. > > J: No response. You're line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable. It makes > it seem like you are here to propagate Islam and do not want to learn > anything. Don't wo
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
I'm not sure exactly which point you are trying to make. J: Forget it. Pretend I never wrote it. Some of what is written doesn't necessarily ring true for me, and I'm not certainwhat other assumptions you might be making. J: No other assumptions. Everything was layed out in the two emails. I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical Christian'sbiggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy. J: No, it is the logical conclusion that Jesus as the Son of God and Word of God does not need to be replaced. Why would God replace His own word? Same argument that Muslims make to prove the finality of the Prophet. Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus several issues on top of that before youget to the idea of scripture being continued. J: Can you blame them? These teachings are part of their religion. Actually, I don't blame the people, I blame their religious leaders and their scholars. Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being suggested because if Jesus said ""Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been finished AFTER Jesus. J: This is funny. From what I remember, the Qur'an was also written after the passing of the Prophet. Still, in my view, both are the Word of God. So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are coming, even for Christians. J: The same must also then apply to the Qur'an. This proves your statement incorrect. Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of Jesus "passed away" J: The fact that you have the Qur'an?It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a formbeyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particularculture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form ofthe scriptures we are familiar with.Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran etc.Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on theabove site.J: No response. You're line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable. It makes it seem like you are here to propagate Islam and do not want to learn anything. Don't worry about the Baha'is, we already believe in the Holy Qur'an. Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
I'm not sure exactly which point you are trying to make. Some of what is written doesn't necessarily ring true for me, and I'm not certain what other assumptions you might be making. I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical Christian's biggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy.Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus several issues on top of that before you get to the idea of scripture being continued. Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being suggested because if Jesus said ""Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been finished AFTER Jesus. So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are coming, even for Christians. Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of Jesus "passed away" Actually, there is an interesting kind of description of the revelation of the books (Quran, Torah, Injil, etc.) according to Islam which I found in a book I was reading many years ago. I haven't seen a similar description anywhere else so I am curious about its origins and its "orthodoxy". But it doesn't seem to be immediately problematic. http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/bbooks.htm It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of the scriptures we are familiar with. Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran etc. Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on the above site. Peace GIlberto On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:44:55 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the Kitab-i-Iqan (pp. 83-84), Baha'u'llah makes a powerful and highly > insightful proclamation. He states that if one were to ask a Muslim why the > Christian failed to accept the Prophet Muhammad, the Muslim would respond > that Muhammad did not fulfill the criteria of the Bible (i.e. verse Luke > 21:33). If he were to be asked why Muhammad does not meet the expectations > of the Bible, the Muslim would respond that the verses are corrupted and not > from God. > > Now here is Baha'u'llah's powerful and insightful proclamation: "Reflect: > the words of the verses themselves (i.e. Luke 21:33) eloquently testify to > the truth that they ARE OF GOD. A SIMILAR VERSE HATH BEEN ALSO REVEALED IN > THE QUR'AN, were ye of them that comprehend." (page 84). > > > > > JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My words shall not pass away." Luke > 21:33 > > In the Kitab-i-Iqan (pp. 27-28), Baha'u'llah states that based on Luke > 21:33, Christians maintain that the Bible will never be abrograted by a > different word or a different book. Their expectation is that when their > promised one comes, He will uphold the Bible. The Christian belief in this > verse is so strong that even if their promised one came with all the signs > and a new word/book, they would reject Him solely because of this verse. > Baha'u'llah then points out that if the Christians asked Muhammad to clarify > Luke 21:33, He would have guided them. > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __ You > are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To > unsubscribe, send a blank email to > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe > bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is > available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - > http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - > news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - > http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - > http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - > http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page â Try My Yahoo! > __ You are subscribed to > Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a > blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use > subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies > is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web > - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - > news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - >
Re: Luke 21:33 & the Qur'an
In the Kitab-i-Iqan (pp. 83-84), Baha'u'llah makes a powerful and highly insightful proclamation. He states that if one were to ask a Muslim why the Christian failed to accept the Prophet Muhammad, the Muslim would respond that Muhammad did not fulfill the criteria of the Bible (i.e. verse Luke 21:33). If he were to be asked why Muhammad does not meet the expectations of the Bible, the Muslim would respond that the verses are corrupted and not from God. Now here is Baha'u'llah's powerful and insightful proclamation: "Reflect: the words of the verses themselves (i.e. Luke 21:33) eloquently testify to the truth that they ARE OF GOD. A SIMILAR VERSE HATH BEEN ALSO REVEALED IN THE QUR'AN, were ye of them that comprehend." (page 84). JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 In the Kitab-i-Iqan (pp. 27-28), Baha'u'llah states that based on Luke 21:33, Christians maintain that the Bible will never be abrograted by a different word or a different book. Their expectation is that when their promised one comes, He will uphold the Bible. The Christian belief in this verse is so strong that even if their promised one came with all the signs and a new word/book, they would reject Him solely because of this verse. Baha'u'llah then points out that if the Christians asked Muhammad to clarify Luke 21:33, He would have guided them. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
