Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Have they given a time frame for when women will be allowed on the UHJ (the > one in Haifa, Israel)? Dear Stephen, This was a theory proposed by Tony Lee and Juan Cole which the BUPC picked up on. The House of Justice rejected that theory in the following letter: http://bahai-library.com/uhj/women.uhj.html In my opinion the absence of a living Guardian makes it impossible for women to serve on the Universal House of Justice in this dispensation because no one has the authority to change the interpretations which have already been given by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Tony Lee and Juan Cole's paper largely ignore the Guardian's authoritative interpretation. If the Universal House of Justice were to do this it would mutilate the Cause in a way the Guardian assured us would never happen. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483234-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Have they given a time frame for when women will be allowed on the UHJ (the one in Haifa, Israel)? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 12:50:20 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I do not know who they are? > Dear Stephen, Tony Lee is a Baha'i who lives in Los Angeles and runs Kalimat Press. More than twenty years ago he and a few other Baha'is wrote a paper entitled "The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith" wherein it was argued that women were excluded from service on Houses of Justice only as a temporary measure. Juan Cole is professor who withdrew from the Faith some fifteen years ago and wrote similar paper. Jensen's sIBC apparently got a hold of one or both of these papers and decided that women should be able to sit on the House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482459-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483229-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I do not know who they are? > Dear Stephen, Tony Lee is a Baha'i who lives in Los Angeles and runs Kalimat Press. More than twenty years ago he and a few other Baha'is wrote a paper entitled "The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith" wherein it was argued that women were excluded from service on Houses of Justice only as a temporary measure. Juan Cole is professor who withdrew from the Faith some fifteen years ago and wrote similar paper. Jensen's sIBC apparently got a hold of one or both of these papers and decided that women should be able to sit on the House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482459-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do not know who they are? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 12:59:15 PM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies ListservDear Stephen, I would request once again that you do not post their material here. If you have questions about their arguments you can certainly ask about it, but most Baha'is try and avoid exposure to this kind of thing as the Guardian and the House have strongly recommended. I think we should respect their choice in this regard. As far as the BUPC allowing women on their so-called House of Justice, if you read their document carefully you fill find that nearly all of their arguments were plagiarized from papers written by Tony Lee and Juan Cole. warnest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482341-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482414-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi Effendi. She was self-confident, assertive and the designated intermediary between Shoghi Effendi and the International Baha'i Council. I have heard that Mason Remey felt this should have been his role as president of the Council. After Shoghi Effendi's death, Remey appears to have been acutely depressed. Pilgrim's notes from the time say that he went for days without coming out of his room, not eating w/ the rest of the Hands, not dressing or shaving, and insisting on having his meals delivered to his room. Reportedly, Ruhiyyih Khanum confronted him over his behavior, saying he needed to get his act together. She did somewhat take charge for a period after Shoghi Effendi's death. Not only was she his designated intermediary, she was his wife. Nobody was closer to him than she was. Having seen women similar to how she is described, my guess is that she coped with the trauma of his unexpected death by taking charge and keeping busy. Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482381-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Stephen, I would request once again that you do not post their material here. If you have questions about their arguments you can certainly ask about it, but most Baha'is try and avoid exposure to this kind of thing as the Guardian and the House have strongly recommended. I think we should respect their choice in this regard. As far as the BUPC allowing women on their so-called House of Justice, if you read their document carefully you fill find that nearly all of their arguments were plagiarized from papers written by Tony Lee and Juan Cole. warnest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482341-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Why is Covenant Breaker material being allowed on this list? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Stephen Gray wrote: From: Stephen Gray Subject: Re: RE: Sects To: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 12:37 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, their UHJ ie UHJ.net allows women on thiers. The appointed body of the Universal House of Justice in its first stage, once and for all, herby resolves that: Based upon the Explicit Holy Text and the clear and manifest proofs and evidences contained within, and in accordance with, the revealed statements of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice shall be comprised of both men and women. And furthermore, that: The membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice is constituted within the Baha'i Administrative Order, that is, the membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice forms an irremovable part of the constitution of the Universal House of Justice in all its stages. And therefore, that: In confomity with, and in enforcement of, the Explicit Holy Text, if women are not elected to the Universal House of Justice than that election shall be declared invalid. [Approved this eighteenth day of Mulk in the year one hundred and fifty-two of the Baha'i Era (February 24, 1996)] From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 11:05:59 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, I do not know that much of early church history. They listed these as: 1.Thyatira (Baha'i Faith) Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel 2.Laodicea (The Faith of God, The House of Mankind, The Man, The Universal Palace of Order, etc.) Jamshid Ma'ani (independent prophet who denounced 'Abdu'l-Baha) and John Carre (Gaurdian of this faith who later renouced this group) DEFUNCT! 3.Ephesus (The Mother Baha'i Council, The Orthodox Baha'i Faith) Charles Mason Remey, (Rex King,) Joel Marangella (who ascended while the Charles Mason Remey was still alive) 4.Perganum (see Ephesus, but Under the Regency) Rex King, currently seeking a male descendant of Baha'u'llah to be his successor... 5.Smyrna (The Charles Mason Remey Society) Charles Mason Remey, (Joseph Pepe Remey,) Donald Harvey, Jacques Soghomonian 6.Sardis (Dissidents of the Lamb and the Covenant) not applicable, just dissidents 7.Philadelphia (The City of Brotherly Love (they never actually use this title as a gruop name though), The Baha'is Under the Provision of the Covenant) Charles Mason Remey, Joseph Pepe Remey, Neal Chase Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi Effendi. They also use the story of Nimrrod, Semirasmis, and Amrafel/Tammuz as an example of the root of all covenant breaking (ie from the original Adamic religion). From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 11:25:16 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. The seven churches in Revelation? Those were actual churches which existed at the time the Book of Revelation was written. The Jensenites combine a lot of bizarre prophecies. They are especially fixated with this notion that the catastrophe will occur as a result of a shifting of the earth's axis. It seems that a lot of early American Baha'is believed this including Mason Remey and Ruth Moffet. This belief seems to come from a misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt regarding trade disputes. He stated the following: " A few days the earth shall roll on its axis, and these fleeting visions will be completely forgotten." Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the passage of time, but many early believers imagined this to be a reference to the poles themselves shifting. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482027-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a bl
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, their UHJ ie UHJ.net allows women on thiers. The appointed body of the Universal House of Justice in its first stage, once and for all, herby resolves that: Based upon the Explicit Holy Text and the clear and manifest proofs and evidences contained within, and in accordance with, the revealed statements of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice shall be comprised of both men and women. And furthermore, that: The membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice is constituted within the Baha'i Administrative Order, that is, the membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice forms an irremovable part of the constitution of the Universal House of Justice in all its stages. And therefore, that: In confomity with, and in enforcement of, the Explicit Holy Text, if women are not elected to the Universal House of Justice than that election shall be declared invalid. [Approved this eighteenth day of Mulk in the year one hundred and fifty-two of the Baha'i Era (February 24, 1996)] From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 11:05:59 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, I do not know that much of early church history. They listed these as: 1.Thyatira (Baha'i Faith) Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel 2.Laodicea (The Faith of God, The House of Mankind, The Man, The Universal Palace of Order, etc.) Jamshid Ma'ani (independent prophet who denounced 'Abdu'l-Baha) and John Carre (Gaurdian of this faith who later renouced this group) DEFUNCT! 3.Ephesus (The Mother Baha'i Council, The Orthodox Baha'i Faith) Charles Mason Remey, (Rex King,) Joel Marangella (who ascended while the Charles Mason Remey was still alive) 4.Perganum (see Ephesus, but Under the Regency) Rex King, currently seeking a male descendant of Baha'u'llah to be his successor... 5.Smyrna (The Charles Mason Remey Society) Charles Mason Remey, (Joseph Pepe Remey,) Donald Harvey, Jacques Soghomonian 6.Sardis (Dissidents of the Lamb and the Covenant) not applicable, just dissidents 7.Philadelphia (The City of Brotherly Love (they never actually use this title as a gruop name though), The Baha'is Under the Provision of the Covenant) Charles Mason Remey, Joseph Pepe Remey, Neal Chase Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi Effendi. They also use the story of Nimrrod, Semirasmis, and Amrafel/Tammuz as an example of the root of all covenant breaking (ie from the original Adamic religion). ____________ From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 11:25:16 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. The seven churches in Revelation? Those were actual churches which existed at the time the Book of Revelation was written. The Jensenites combine a lot of bizarre prophecies. They are especially fixated with this notion that the catastrophe will occur as a result of a shifting of the earth's axis. It seems that a lot of early American Baha'is believed this including Mason Remey and Ruth Moffet. This belief seems to come from a misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt regarding trade disputes. He stated the following: " A few days the earth shall roll on its axis, and these fleeting visions will be completely forgotten." Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the passage of time, but many early believers imagined this to be a reference to the poles themselves shifting. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482027-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482299-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - ma
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her > characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi > Effendi. That's probably the thing I find the most disgusting about the Jensenites, they rely on slander. Contrary to their assertions an autopsy was performed after Shoghi Effendi's passing. He died of a blood clot to the heart. Yet without any evidence whatsoever they have accused her of smothering the Guardian. Actually the most disgusting thing is that they follow womanizer and a pedophile, and that's not slander, that's documented history. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482304-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, I do not know that much of early church history. They listed these as: 1.Thyatira (Baha'i Faith) Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel 2.Laodicea (The Faith of God, The House of Mankind, The Man, The Universal Palace of Order, etc.) Jamshid Ma'ani (independent prophet who denounced 'Abdu'l-Baha) and John Carre (Gaurdian of this faith who later renouced this group) DEFUNCT! 3.Ephesus (The Mother Baha'i Council, The Orthodox Baha'i Faith) Charles Mason Remey, (Rex King,) Joel Marangella (who ascended while the Charles Mason Remey was still alive) 4.Perganum (see Ephesus, but Under the Regency) Rex King, currently seeking a male descendant of Baha'u'llah to be his successor... 5.Smyrna (The Charles Mason Remey Society) Charles Mason Remey, (Joseph Pepe Remey,) Donald Harvey, Jacques Soghomonian 6.Sardis (Dissidents of the Lamb and the Covenant) not applicable, just dissidents 7.Philadelphia (The City of Brotherly Love (they never actually use this title as a gruop name though), The Baha'is Under the Provision of the Covenant) Charles Mason Remey, Joseph Pepe Remey, Neal Chase Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi Effendi. They also use the story of Nimrrod, Semirasmis, and Amrafel/Tammuz as an example of the root of all covenant breaking (ie from the original Adamic religion). From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 11:25:16 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. The seven churches in Revelation? Those were actual churches which existed at the time the Book of Revelation was written. The Jensenites combine a lot of bizarre prophecies. They are especially fixated with this notion that the catastrophe will occur as a result of a shifting of the earth's axis. It seems that a lot of early American Baha'is believed this including Mason Remey and Ruth Moffet. This belief seems to come from a misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt regarding trade disputes. He stated the following: " A few days the earth shall roll on its axis, and these fleeting visions will be completely forgotten." Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the passage of time, but many early believers imagined this to be a reference to the poles themselves shifting. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482027-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482299-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. The seven churches in Revelation? Those were actual churches which existed at the time the Book of Revelation was written. The Jensenites combine a lot of bizarre prophecies. They are especially fixated with this notion that the catastrophe will occur as a result of a shifting of the earth's axis. It seems that a lot of early American Baha'is believed this including Mason Remey and Ruth Moffet. This belief seems to come from a misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt regarding trade disputes. He stated the following: " A few days the earth shall roll on its axis, and these fleeting visions will be completely forgotten." Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the passage of time, but many early believers imagined this to be a reference to the poles themselves shifting. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482027-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 3:28:52 PM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv That is a point, but the book "Entry By Troops" quotes not only Baha'i scriputre, but also the Bible, the Qur'an, Hadith, various prophecies of the Norse, Mormons, Morrisites, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. God made an everlasting covenant with David and his descendants. From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 11:43:04 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv I could be wrong but it is my understanding that the Zaydis allow for the possibility that any of the descendants of Muhammad (saaws) might be eligible to be the imam. And although I've never seen estimates of the total, there are definitely large numbers of such descendants.. from the Aga Khan, to the Ayatollah Khomeini, to Bahaullah, to Maulana Sheikh Nazim of the Naqshbandis, to many of the Arab royal families, and even to U.S. Senator John Kerry. But of course Susan has already made clear that the Bahai faith follows a version of the 12-er line of succession. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? > > > From: "sen.so...@casema.nl" > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 12:51:04 AM > Subject: Re: RE: Sects > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> What would have happened if the Guardian had a son and at the time he >> died the son was an infant or a child? If an infant certainly they > > In the Bahai guardianship, like the Shiah Imamate, succession is not by > automatic rules (like the British crown for example): rather it is by > designation, with a presumption of primogeniture. Logically - and using the > history of the Shiah Imamate as an example - Abdu'ul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi > must have anticipated that such a system could not continue indefinitely. > The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the > capabilities of the most likely candidate were clear. Sooner or later, a > Guardian would die before the choice was made official, and the line would > end. > > This is another reason for rejecting the claim that the Universal House of > Justice needs a living Guardian. If Abdu'l-Baha had believed that a Guardian > was essential, he could have chosen a system which - like the French > monarchy - could continue for centuries. Instead he chose something like the > succession of the Imamate, which he must have known would ensure that the > line would end in time. > > Sen > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-480903-17190...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481028-684...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481740-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That is a point, but the book "Entry By Troops" quotes not only Baha'i scriputre, but also the Bible, the Qur'an, Hadith, various prophecies of the Norse, Mormons, Morrisites, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. God made an everlasting covenant with David and his descendants. From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 11:43:04 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv I could be wrong but it is my understanding that the Zaydis allow for the possibility that any of the descendants of Muhammad (saaws) might be eligible to be the imam. And although I've never seen estimates of the total, there are definitely large numbers of such descendants.. from the Aga Khan, to the Ayatollah Khomeini, to Bahaullah, to Maulana Sheikh Nazim of the Naqshbandis, to many of the Arab royal families, and even to U.S. Senator John Kerry. But of course Susan has already made clear that the Bahai faith follows a version of the 12-er line of succession. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? > > > From: "sen.so...@casema.nl" > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 12:51:04 AM > Subject: Re: RE: Sects > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> What would have happened if the Guardian had a son and at the time he >> died the son was an infant or a child? If an infant certainly they > > In the Bahai guardianship, like the Shiah Imamate, succession is not by > automatic rules (like the British crown for example): rather it is by > designation, with a presumption of primogeniture. Logically - and using the > history of the Shiah Imamate as an example - Abdu'ul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi > must have anticipated that such a system could not continue indefinitely. > The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the > capabilities of the most likely candidate were clear. Sooner or later, a > Guardian would die before the choice was made official, and the line would > end. > > This is another reason for rejecting the claim that the Universal House of > Justice needs a living Guardian. If Abdu'l-Baha had believed that a Guardian > was essential, he could have chosen a system which - like the French > monarchy - could continue for centuries. Instead he chose something like the > succession of the Imamate, which he must have known would ensure that the > line would end in time. > > Sen > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-480903-17190...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481028-684...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481740-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - ht
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I could be wrong but it is my understanding that the Zaydis allow for the possibility that any of the descendants of Muhammad (saaws) might be eligible to be the imam. And although I've never seen estimates of the total, there are definitely large numbers of such descendants.. from the Aga Khan, to the Ayatollah Khomeini, to Bahaullah, to Maulana Sheikh Nazim of the Naqshbandis, to many of the Arab royal families, and even to U.S. Senator John Kerry. But of course Susan has already made clear that the Bahai faith follows a version of the 12-er line of succession. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? > > > From: "sen.so...@casema.nl" > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 12:51:04 AM > Subject: Re: RE: Sects > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> What would have happened if the Guardian had a son and at the time he >> died the son was an infant or a child? If an infant certainly they > > In the Bahai guardianship, like the Shiah Imamate, succession is not by > automatic rules (like the British crown for example): rather it is by > designation, with a presumption of primogeniture. Logically - and using the > history of the Shiah Imamate as an example - Abdu'ul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi > must have anticipated that such a system could not continue indefinitely. > The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the > capabilities of the most likely candidate were clear. Sooner or later, a > Guardian would die before the choice was made official, and the line would > end. > > This is another reason for rejecting the claim that the Universal House of > Justice needs a living Guardian. If Abdu'l-Baha had believed that a Guardian > was essential, he could have chosen a system which - like the French > monarchy - could continue for centuries. Instead he chose something like the > succession of the Imamate, which he must have known would ensure that the > line would end in time. > > Sen > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-480903-17190...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481028-684...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481740-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv My information was obtained prior to the birth of his youngest son who I did not know about. He might very well become the next Aqa Khan. The other two are playboys. On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > The descendents of Aga Khan IV (b 13 Dec 1936) are: > 1. Princess Zahra (b 18 Sep 1970) > 2. Prince Rahim (b 12 Oct 1971) > 3. Prince Hussain (b 10 Apr 1974) > 4. Prince Ali Muhammad (b 7 Mar 2000) > PS Not that strict as Aga Khan IV was the grandson rather than the son of > Aga Khan III. > > From: Susan Maneck > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 2:17:47 PM > Subject: Re: RE: Sects > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>Their 'descent' requirement is strict: male descendants of the current Imam >> only, not lateral relations > > That may not hold true for the future. The current Agha Khan's son is > basically a play boy is not considered acceptable for succession and > so far the Aqa Khan has not excluded the possibility his daughter > might be designated. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-481457-17190...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481669-7387...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481696-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > None of the lineages ever "ended"... The Twelvers and the Druze believe in > Occultation, Dear Stephen, That may very well be what they believe, however what we are dealing with here is what Baha'is believe and 'Abdu'l-Baha was rather emphatic that the Twelve Imam that was said to have gone into hiding never really existed. It is clear, therefore, that for *Baha'is* the notion of Imamate/Guardianship ending was always a possibility. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481686-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The descendents of Aga Khan IV (b 13 Dec 1936) are: 1. Princess Zahra (b 18 Sep 1970) 2. Prince Rahim (b 12 Oct 1971) 3. Prince Hussain (b 10 Apr 1974) 4. Prince Ali Muhammad (b 7 Mar 2000) PS Not that strict as Aga Khan IV was the grandson rather than the son of Aga Khan III. From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 2:17:47 PM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Their 'descent' requirement is strict: male descendants of the current Imam >only, not lateral relations That may not hold true for the future. The current Agha Khan's son is basically a play boy is not considered acceptable for succession and so far the Aqa Khan has not excluded the possibility his daughter might be designated. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481457-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481669-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv None of the lineages ever "ended"... The Twelvers and the Druze believe in Occultation, ie that there is a Hidden Imam. Usually, it means said Imam is an immortal in perpetual hiding. It can also mean the ordinary first son succession, except they are all in hiding. They never fully specify what Occultation means in Shi'ah Islam. Also any Imam with the given name Muhummad has Shi'ah followers who consider that Imam to be Mahdi. From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 1:26:55 PM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? Baha'is accept the Twelver line of Imams and reject the others. It is clear from the Aqdas that there was an expectation that the line of the Aghsan (from which Guardians are drawn) would end at some point. Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of 35 them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsan, and after them to the House of Justice -- should it be established in the world by then -- that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 34) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481049-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481659-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I think the Administrative Order has lost something important, i.e., Guardians, but it is dinamic enough to drive humankind to world unity. The writings are so clear that the Guardians have to be male descendents of the Blessed Beauty, so, sects are discarded in our religion. Peace are guaranteed at least for 1000 years, as it is promised in the Bible. With sects, I think peace is not viable. Though we have a hard way to run. --- El jue 14-ene-10, Susan Maneck escribió: De: Susan Maneck Asunto: Re: RE: Sects A: "Baha'i Studies" Fecha: jueves, 14 enero, 2010, 2:26 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? Baha'is accept the Twelver line of Imams and reject the others. It is clear from the Aqdas that there was an expectation that the line of the Aghsan (from which Guardians are drawn) would end at some point. Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of 35 them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsan, and after them to the House of Justice -- should it be established in the world by then -- that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 34) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481049-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481540-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Their 'descent' requirement is strict: male descendants of the current Imam >only, not lateral relations That may not hold true for the future. The current Agha Khan's son is basically a play boy is not considered acceptable for succession and so far the Aqa Khan has not excluded the possibility his daughter might be designated. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481457-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Van: Stephen Gray > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil > surving like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? Good point: Ismaili succession requires both descent and designation, yet their line has continued until the present. Their 'descent' requirement is strict: male descendants of the current Imam only, not lateral relations. Either the continuance is quite miraculous, or they have a fairly supply way of detecting an implicit designation when none has been made explicit... Any Ismaili experts on the list? Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481424-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving > like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? Baha'is accept the Twelver line of Imams and reject the others. It is clear from the Aqdas that there was an expectation that the line of the Aghsan (from which Guardians are drawn) would end at some point. Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of 35 them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsan, and after them to the House of Justice -- should it be established in the world by then -- that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 34) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481049-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv He knew it would end in time? Isn't some of the Imam lineages stil surving like Aga Khan IV of the Nizari Ismai'ilis? From: "sen.so...@casema.nl" To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 12:51:04 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What would have happened if the Guardian had a son and at the time he > died the son was an infant or a child? If an infant certainly they In the Bahai guardianship, like the Shiah Imamate, succession is not by automatic rules (like the British crown for example): rather it is by designation, with a presumption of primogeniture. Logically - and using the history of the Shiah Imamate as an example - Abdu'ul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi must have anticipated that such a system could not continue indefinitely. The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the capabilities of the most likely candidate were clear. Sooner or later, a Guardian would die before the choice was made official, and the line would end. This is another reason for rejecting the claim that the Universal House of Justice needs a living Guardian. If Abdu'l-Baha had believed that a Guardian was essential, he could have chosen a system which - like the French monarchy - could continue for centuries. Instead he chose something like the succession of the Imamate, which he must have known would ensure that the line would end in time. Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-480903-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481028-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >There's a letter from the Guardian's secretary which does not even mention the >question of succession, but >says the Hands cannot overrule the Guardian, And just which clause of the Will and Testament do you think this statement is referring to? > and the Remeyites say that this letter also cancels the provision in the Will > and Testament which says that the Hands must vote in secret ballot so that > the assenting >and DISsenting voices cannot be distinguished, and a >Majority > of votes will prevail. I've never seen them make the argument that any provision of the Will and Testament had been canceled. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-480906-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the >capabilities of the most likely >candidate were clear. Shoghi Effendi was just a child when 'Abdu'l-Baha designated him His successor in the Will and Testament, so apparently he wouldn't have to wait very long. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-480905-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > the Guardian made it quite clear that the Hands > > did not have the right to reject a Guardian's choice > > I think I have read this in Pilgrim notes. Do we have this from the > Guardian in writing? > It's one of the things the Remeyite Covenant-breakers use for their arguments, but there's no substance to it. There's a letter from the Guardian's secretary which does not even mention the question of succession, but says the Hands cannot overrule the Guardian, and the Remeyites say that this letter also cancels the provision in the Will and Testament which says that the Hands must vote in secret ballot so that the assenting and DISsenting voices cannot be distinguished, and a Majority of votes will prevail. Obviously that means that there is one specific case in which the 9 chosen Hands have a duty to vote their consciences; each has a right to dissent, and only when the votes are counted would it be known whether the Guardian's choice was confirmed or rejected. I have an image of the letter from the Guardian's secretary on my blog, in a posting called No counterfeits http://tinyurl.com/NocounterfeitGuardians It's in the postscript at the bottom, written in response to just this claim by the Remeyites Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-480904-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What would have happened if the Guardian had a son and at the time he > died the son was an infant or a child? If an infant certainly they In the Bahai guardianship, like the Shiah Imamate, succession is not by automatic rules (like the British crown for example): rather it is by designation, with a presumption of primogeniture. Logically - and using the history of the Shiah Imamate as an example - Abdu'ul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi must have anticipated that such a system could not continue indefinitely. The Guardian was bound to wait, before designating his successor, until the capabilities of the most likely candidate were clear. Sooner or later, a Guardian would die before the choice was made official, and the line would end. This is another reason for rejecting the claim that the Universal House of Justice needs a living Guardian. If Abdu'l-Baha had believed that a Guardian was essential, he could have chosen a system which - like the French monarchy - could continue for centuries. Instead he chose something like the succession of the Imamate, which he must have known would ensure that the line would end in time. Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-480903-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
