Re: Resolving perplexities
In a message dated 2/3/2005 5:54:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Surely, near the end of his life, Shoghi Effendi must have realized there would not be any Guardian after him. Dear Tim, The pilgrim note I have in mind is from 1955. "After twenty years of marriage, he had no children, and Ruhiyyih Khanum was nearing the end of child-bearing years." Don't forget that Ruhiyyih Khanum herself was conceived when her mother was in her forties after having been apparently barren. "Actually, I am very surprised that none of the pilgrims in the 1950s asked Shoghi Effendi who would be Guardian after him." The older Baha'is I talked to had thought that Shoghi Effendi might indeed have children somewhere that he was hiding to keep safe from the Covenant breakers. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
Tim wrote: >>Surely, near the end of his life, Shoghi Effendi must have realized there would not be any Guardian after him. After twenty years of marriage, he had no children, and Ruhiyyih Khanum was nearing the end of child-bearing years. By that time, all of the other Aghsan had broken the Covenant. In last few years of his life, it must have been obvious to him that the line of Guardians would end.>> There are signs that Shoghi Effendi intended the House of Justice to be brought into being in 1963. It is entirely possible that, since this was not a matter explicit in the Book, he could not himself make a declaration on the subject, and anticipated that the House would rule on it after it was brought into being. I think that the House of Justice says as much: "At the time of our beloved Shoghi Effendi's death it was evident, from the circumstances and from the explicit requirements of the Holy Texts, that it had been impossible for him to appoint a successor in accordance with the provisions of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha. This situation, in which the Guardian died without being able to appoint a successor, presented an obscure question not covered by the explicit Holy Text, and had to be referred to the Universal House of Justice. The friends should clearly understand that before the election of the Universal House of Justice there was no knowledge that there would be no Guardian. There could not have been any such foreknowledge, whatever opinions individual believers may have held. Neither the Hands of the Cause of God, nor the International Bahá'í Council, nor any other existing body could make a decision upon this all-important matter. Only the House of Justice had authority to pronounce upon it." (The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 50) Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
I found a very interesting document which may have some bearing on this issue. It is a letter from Frau Grossman in regards to Dr. Fallsheer's pilgrim's notes. She is the same doctor who is the source of that pilgrim note mentioned earlier where Abdu'l-Baha referred to Shoghi Effendi as His "Elisha." "The Master says: "... There is a general and unwritten law in effect throughout Asia whereby the direct male descendent of a Prophet, or of a Saint, or of a Martyr, has the first claim to the office of custodian, that is, to the caretaking or trusteeship of such a Shrine. Upon My departure to the land of transcendental reality (Malakut-i- A'la) My eldest grandson should get first consideration as custodian and keeper of the Holy shrines. It is conceivable that My half- brother and adversary (Muhammad-'Ali) would make such claims. However, the decision in this case could not be made in a last will and testament but by the national governmental authority in power at the time, in this case the Turks, or God only knows whoever the successors of the Turks will be some day! I feel calm and secure that no national government would disregard an ancient and sacred custom. Verily, as long as there will be a direct or indirect male descendent of the Blessed Perfection Baha'u'llah the two Shrines and some day my own will be in the best of hands..." "However, should the Lord some day allow the blessed line of our descendents to be broken, the International House of Justice, together with the Local House, will appoint a suitable guardian, caretaker, custodian or administrator, for the three places of pilgrimage, and the roses of Shiraz and the lilies of Tehran will forever bloom and exhale their fragrance in commemoration of the Forerunner, the Fulfiller, and the Promulgator of the Baha'i Teachings, as living tokens of the beauty and glory of God. Allah'u'Abha." http://bahai-library.com/pilgrims/grossmann.letter.html Apparently Frau Grossman took this to mean the House could appoint future Guardians, though it doesn't point to anyone possessing that kind of authority. Still, it relates rather closely to the passage from the Aqdas I mentioned earlier. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
> Actually, I am very surprised that none of the pilgrims in the > 1950s asked Shoghi Effendi who would be Guardian after him. In 1950's, he was only in his 50's, and Khanum was in her late 30's. Both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha had lived well into Their 70's -- and that was remarkable for their generation of the Middle Eastern men when life expectancy was at most in 40's or so. So, who would have thought that Shoghi Effendi would pass away at the young age of 60, especially given that he often had medical checks in Europe. In fact, I had not noticed it until one day at lunch Ruhiyyih Khanum mentioned to me that her first cable after his passing stated that he was ill and for friends to pray for him. She said that by this, (1) she was preparing the friends, and (2) signaling to the wise that he had passed (as no one would expect the Guardian requesting prayers for his own health). Anyway, the passing of the Guardian was a huge surprise. Also, pretty much everyone from 1957 to '63 was expecting that somehow the House of Justice would figure a way for the next Guardian to be appointed. It was unthinkable to have no Guardian! One of the first orders of business for the House of Justice, after all the members had come to Haifa by Oct 63, was to tackle this issue. After a series of consultations, finally they decided to spend a whole day at the Mansion of Bahji praying and consulting. Much debate took place. Finally, they converged on the position that they cabled the Baha'i world, and that by itself was a shock, but was also seen as the only logical outcome. My father used to say that for 6 years of debating and speculating, when they saw the cable of the House in Oct 63, they all said: "Well, of course! Why didn't we think of that?!" Regards, Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
Dear Susan, > And it is unclear that Shoghi Effendi expected it [an end to the line of Guardians] to happen at all. Pilgrim's Notes indicate that he believed people would not fail to recognize the next Manifestation because there would be a Guardian there. That's how he understood that this was the Day that would not be followed by night.< Surely, near the end of his life, Shoghi Effendi must have realized there would not be any Guardian after him. After twenty years of marriage, he had no children, and Ruhiyyih Khanum was nearing the end of child-bearing years. By that time, all of the other Aghsan had broken the Covenant. In last few years of his life, it must have been obvious to him that the line of Guardians would end. Actually, I am very surprised that none of the pilgrims in the 1950s asked Shoghi Effendi who would be Guardian after him. Tim Nolan __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
"Susan once quoted a very interesting remark from Prof Banani (which I can't recall) to the effect that such things becomes the burden of the future generations." Dear Ahang, Not so much things like that. What the Dr. Banani said was that 'overglorifications of the past become a burden to the future.' warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
"I'd also add that common sense dictates that the line might and would very well break at some point." Dear Iskandar, I agree. Certainly Baha'u'llah assumed this. But I doubt if Abdu'l-Baha expected this to happen after a single Guardian. And it is unclear that Shoghi Effendi expected it to happen at all. Pilgrim's Notes indicate that he believed people would not fail to recognize the next Manifestation because there would be a Guardian there. That's how he understood that this was the Day that would not be followed by night. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
Dear Brent, you wrote: > Because of this implication, we should approach the > Word with befitting humility and realize that we are > striving to understand Universal Mind with limited > mind. > > We also need to approach these questions with > confidence. As the House advised us to do, we > should draw assurance from these words of > Baha'u'llah: > > "The Hand of Omnipotence hath established His > Revelation upon an unassailable, an enduring > foundation. Storms of human strife are powerless to > undermine its basis, nor will men's fanciful > theories succeed in damaging its structure." > (Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 55) > It is one of the things I find most difficult to answer when I am talking to atheists, who point out the seeming illogicality of these things. I find it difficult to answer because when I was reading the Iqan for the first time I got really upset realising that for centuries human beings had not understood that a lot of what was foretold about future events (like stars falling from heaven) were symbolical. It is one of the tests I think God puts people through, so that they may come to know the extent of their belief or unbelief and their willingness to accept a higher authority than their own. It is one of my tests, because some things seems so illogical to me. much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
JS, you wrote: Though studying the text is important, the more we speculate and come up with theories that are after all based on our personal experiences, the more we weaken the structure, even though it may not be damagable. Isn't it better to create a border around our study of the text to limit it such that we don't cross this line into the uncertain realm of 'fanciful theories'? It is not as if there is nothing else to study. Wouldn't the answers to these thi! ngs come about in time? I see that nobody as yet has tackled this issue after you raised it. >From when I started reading Bahai scriptures, before I declared, this has been on my mind as well. Some questions and issues my mind has come up with and which sometimes have been reflected by those who give expression of an academic approach to the writings, as well as the questions I have read on lists for the academic discussion of Bahai writings, I find very disturbing and extremely uncomfortable. However, I think it is good to try to find answers to these. questions. The exercise will make us go to the writings, and sometimes these questions will be asked by those who want to know more about the Bahai faith. I think to a certain extend we have to delve into the realm of fanciful theories because of questions those investigating the faith ask or may ask. And sometimes it is our own mind that asks the question and it is the part of us that is the unbeliever that is worthy of finding an answer. much love, janine __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
"This did not originate with Khanum; she was quoting someone else who had been with the Master when Shoghi Effendi entered their presence and the Master asked "how do you like my future Elisha?" Then He said that Baha'u'llah had told him to look among his sons and grandsons." Dear Brent, She was a non-Baha'i in fact, but there are some good reasons for questioning her as a source. There are other "pilgrim's notes' where she placed words into Abdu'l-Baha's mouth that were definitely traced back to book. There was a thread on this some time ago. I think maybe it was Keven Brown who discovered the plagiarism. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
Susan, you ask what provision the Master made for the House of Justice to function without a Guardian. In looking at the first part of the Master's Will (p. 14) we see that the Master provided for the Guardian to be a member of, and to chair, the House of Justice. This is what I would term the preferred, but not the only provision He made in His Will for the manner of functioning of the Universal House of Justice. We should not only look at the three parts of the Will, but all of the Writings, as one unity. There is a notation at the end of the first part of the Will: "This written paper hath for a long time been preserved under ground, damp having affected it. When brought forth to the light it was observed that certain parts of it were injured by the damp, and the Holy Land being sorely agitated it was left untouched." (WIll, p. 15) The second part of the Will begins with the Master stating (p. 17) that He is "submerged in an ocean of calamities", that "perils have from all sides beset" Him. While one might say that this was not a unique circumstance during the years the Master lived in Akka, there is more. He then elaborates (p. 18) that the Covenant breakers led the government to deem the Master "a sower of sedition". He then states (p. 19) "I am now in very great danger and the hope of even an hour's life is lost to me." This was a greater peril than He normally faced. At the end of the first part of the Will He states that He has removed His Will from its underground place of safekeeping. I assume that this was during the years He was a prisoner in Akka. Prisoners don't get to have safes. The Master later had a safe, and placed His Will in it (Light of Divine Guidance Vol I p. 134); but that was in Haifa, when the Sultan had been overthrown and the Master could move about freely. The Master removed His Will from the ground at a time when He describes the Holy Land as "sorely agitated." The same Persian word appears elsewhere in the Writings and is translated as "convulsion" and as "upheaval." After stating that He is in "very great danger and the hope of even an hour's life is lost" to Him, the Master states in the second part of His Will that He is writing it "for the protection of the Cause of God, the preservation of His Law, the safeguarding of His Word and the safety of His Teachings." (p. 19) It is my impression that when this upheaval was occurring in the Holy Land, of such a magnitude that His life was in imminent peril, He removed His Will from the ground. Why? It needed an addition. The first part of the Will alone, was not adequate in the circumstances to protect the Cause. What does the second part of the Will add to the first part? Two things: Provisions regarding the bringing into being and functioning of the Universal House of Justice; and the strongest admonitions to shun the Covenant-breakers. So I believe that the note at the end of the first part of the Will may have been written during the same perilous time that He penned the second part of the Will. What was the peril that had raised the suspicion of the government and threatened to end His life within the hour? It is likely that it was the second Commission of Inquiry, which came to the Holy Land in the winter of 1907. It threatened Him with death or exile (GPB 269) Shoghi Effendi was, at the time of the second commission, ten years old. The Master's Tablet to one of the leading figures in the Cause, the cousin of the Bab, is also helpful in understanding that the House of Justice could function without the presence of the Guardian. The House of Justice has written: "The friends should realize that there is nothing in the Texts to indicate that the election of the Universal House of Justice could be called only by the Guardian. On the contrary, 'Abdu'l-Bahá envisaged the calling of its election in His own lifetime. At a time described by the Guardian as "the darkest moments of His (the Master's) life, under 'Abdu'l-Hamid's regime, when He stood to be deported to the most inhospitable regions of Northern Africa," and when even His life was threatened, 'Abdu'l-Bahá wrote to Haji Mirza Taqi Afnan, the cousin of the Báb and chief builder of the 'Ishqabad Temple, commanding him to arrange for the election of the Universal House of Justice should the threats against the Master materialize. The second part of the Master's Will is also relevant to such a situation and should be studied by the friends." (Letter of the Universal House of Justice dated 9 March 1965; Messages p. 53) Since it is clear that the first part of the Will directed everyone to turn to Shoghi Effendi, why would the Master write to someone other than Shoghi Effendi and direct him to arrange for the election of the Universal House of Justice? The most reasonable explanation is that Shoghi Effendi was too young. As the House suggests, "the second part of the Master's Will is als
RE: Resolving perplexities
>>As someone who enjoys reading history, I would be a bit careful with such >>sources as Priceless Pearl. Often in their enthusiasm, some authors read back >>events into what actually was said or had occurred. For instance, why would >>Baha'u'llah be telling Abdu'l-Baha to look among His *grandsons* when >>Abdu'l-Baha was young and could still have sons? >> This did not originate with Khanum; she was quoting someone else who had been with the Master when Shoghi Effendi entered their presence and the Master asked "how do you like my future Elisha?" Then He said that Baha'u'llah had told him to look among his sons and grandsons. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
> In the Kitab-i-Ahd Baha'u'llah designates Mirza Muhammad-Ali as the Master's > successor (Tablets of Baha'u'llah 222). Yet, Baha'u'llah told the Master to > look among his sons and grandsons for who would succeed Him. (Priceless Pearl > 12) As someone who enjoys reading history, I would be a bit careful with such sources as Priceless Pearl. Often in their enthusiasm, some authors read back events into what actually was said or had occurred. For instance, why would Baha'u'llah be telling Abdu'l-Baha to look among His *grandsons* when Abdu'l-Baha was young and could still have sons? I suspect what Baha'u'llah may have said to Abdu'l-Baha was along the lines "Look among your sons", meaning, He had every intention for the Institution of Interpreter to continue, but then regrettably all of Abdu'l-Baha's sons passed at childhood and He had to look to the next generation. So it was convenient for much-esteemed author of the Priceless Pearl to read "grandson" back into history. Susan once quoted a very interesting remark from Prof Banani (which I can't recall) to the effect that such things becomes the burden of the future generations. Meaning, they will be burdened in figuring out what was real and what was creative license. Regards, Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
I'd also add that common sense dictates that the line might and would very well break at some point. `Abdu'l-Baha didn't need omniscience or prescience to know this common sense thing. Besides, He was well aware of what happend in Shi`ah Islam when Hasan Askari died without any male issue. Just my thoughts. Love, Iskandar Quoting Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Dear Brent, > <> > > "I base my impression that the Master knew how it would come out, on > my > view that the Master often demonstrated prescience;" > > Sometimes He did. That isn't evidence He did on this particular > matter. > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Resolving perplexities
"So although the Master was the outward author, the Guardian emphasizes that the provisions of the Master's Will entirely reflect the intentions of Baha'u'llah, in both of His first two World Order letters, and in the Dispensation." Dear Brent, I'm not arguing that the Will and Testament isn't compatible with Baha'u'llah's wishes. But that is quite a different thing that saying Baha'u'llah made the specific provisions of the Will and Testament. "I base my impression that the Master knew how it would come out, on my view that the Master often demonstrated prescience;" Sometimes He did. That isn't evidence He did on this particular matter. "and on my view that He and Baha'u'llah both made provision for the House to function without the Guardian." What provisions did Abdu'l-Baha make for this? It seems to me that it was Baha'u'llah who clearly makes a provision for the authority of the House in the absence of an Aghsan. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Resolving perplexities
I wrote: >>Why would the Master and Baha'u'llah establish such a provision, if in Their divine wisdom and foresight they knew it would never come about?">> Susan replied: >>First off, as you know it was Abdu'l-Baha, not Baha'u'llah who made this provision. But on what do you base you assumption that the Master knew this would never come about? >> Shoghi Effendi repeatedly emphasizes the unity of the Aqdas and the Master's Will, to the degree of referring to "their Will:" "Both in the administrative provisions of the Bahá'í Dispensation, and in the matter of succession, as embodied in the twin institutions of the House of Justice and of the Guardianship, the followers of Bahá'u'lláh can summon to their aid such irrefutable evidences of Divine Guidance that none can resist, that none can belittle or ignore. Therein lies the distinguishing feature of the Bahá'í Revelation. Therein lies the strength of the unity of the Faith, of the validity of a Revelation that claims not to destroy or belittle previous Revelations, but to connect, unify, and fulfill them. This is the reason why Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá have both revealed and even insisted upon certain details in connection with the Divine Economy which they have bequeathed to us, their followers. This is why such an emphasis has been placed in their Will and Testament upon the powers and prerogatives of the ministers of their Faith. For nothing short of the explicit directions of their Book, and the surprisingly emphatic language with which they have clothed the provisions of their Will, could possibly safeguard the Faith for which they have both so gloriously labored all their lives." (WOB 21-22) So although the Master was the outward author, the Guardian emphasizes that the provisions of the Master's Will entirely reflect the intentions of Baha'u'llah, in both of His first two World Order letters, and in the Dispensation. That's why I said it that way. I base my impression that the Master knew how it would come out, on my view that the Master often demonstrated prescience; and on my view that He and Baha'u'llah both made provision for the House to function without the Guardian. JS asks: "Did Mirza Muhammad-Ali begin opposing Abdu'l-Baha while Baha'u'llah was alive?" The Master was not in a leadership function while Baha'u'llah was still alive, so in that sense there was nothing to oppose. However, Mirza Muhammad Ali had, as Mr. Taherzadeh has explained in his two books on the Covenant, during Baha'u'llah's lifetime, claimed in writing to believers in Persia that his writings were divine Revelation. Baha'u'llah chastised him for this. This is the origin of the Tablets from Baha'u'llah which the Master quotes in His Will, where Baha'u'llah states (p. 6) that some of His "foolish loved ones" regarded Mirza Muhammad Ali as Baha'u'llah's partner in Revelation; and also Baha'u'llah's Tablet in which He says of Muhammad Ali: "Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught." The Master brings these things to mind in narrating in His Will the opposition of his half-brother. My personal view is that to Baha'u'llah, Mirza Muhammad Ali's profound jealousy of the Master was very evident; and that Baha'u'llah was well aware that when He, Baha'u'llah, left this world, the Master would have His hands full dealing with Muhammad Ali. I personally think this is why Baha'u'llah made provision in His Will, for Mirza Muhammad Ali to be the Master's successor. I think it was an incentive for Muhammad Ali to follow the Master; that if he obeyed Him and turned to Him, he could have the leadership of the Cause. I think that Baha'u'llah was well aware that Muhammad Ali would not do so; but this provision showed that He, Baha'u'llah, gave Muhammad Ali every chance. There was even a confrontation between the Master and Muhammad Ali, in which the Master urged His half-brother to obey Him; and if he did, he would have everything he wanted after His passing. Muhammad Ali retorted, how did he know that he would outlive Him? (GPB 249) In fact, he outlived the Master by 16 years. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
In a message dated 2/1/2005 1:38:42 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "I reflect on these questions to aid me to understand this one:In His Will the Master provided that the Guardian would serve as the Head of the House of Justice; but events unfolded such that this did not happen. Why would the Master and Baha'u'llah establish such a provision, if in Their divine wisdom and foresight they knew it would never come about?" Dear Brent, First off, as you know it was Abdu'l-Baha, not Baha'u'llah who made this provision. But on what do you base you assumption that the Master knew this would never come about? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Resolving perplexities
In the Kitab-i-Ahd Baha'u'llah designates Mirza Muhammad-Ali as the Master's successor (Tablets of Baha'u'llah 222). Yet, Baha'u'llah told the Master to look among his sons and grandsons for who would succeed Him. (Priceless Pearl 12) Why would Baha'u'llah write this provision in His Covenant, if He knew it would not be carried out in the world of being?> Did Mirza Muhammad-Ali begin opposing Abdu'l-Baha while Baha'u'llah was alive? According to the testimony of Baha'u'llah's secretary, Baha'u'llah revealed a multitude of Tablets comprising "hundreds of thousands of verses," then decided that the world was not ready to hear them, and directed his secretary to cast them into the river. (GPB 138) Why did He reveal these Tablets in the first place, if He knew that He was going to later destroy them?> Is there any evidence that this statement in GPB was literal to any of the historians here? Further, we should not assume that if a verse appears to be clear in its meaning, that it necessarily is. The verse in the Aqdas limiting wives to no more than two (Aqdas verse 63) seems clear enough; but the appointed Interpreter gave it different meaning (Aqdas p. 206) And as that Interpreter said, "Bahá'u'lláh appointed a central authoritative Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book. This implies that the people in general do not understand the meanings of the Book, but this appointed One does understand." (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 382)> I think this statement by Abdu'l-Baha is very important. Does anyone know if He writes this in any one of his tablets ( instead of it being a transcription of one of His talks, as the above is?) We also need to approach these questions with confidence. As the House advised us to do, we should draw assurance from these words of Baha'u'llah: "The Hand of Omnipotence hath established His Revelation upon an unassailable, an enduring foundation. Storms of human strife are powerless to undermine its basis, nor will men's fanciful theories succeed in damaging its structure." (Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 55)> We Baha'is have a duty to see that the above is fulfilled. Though studying the text is important, the more we speculate and come up with theories that are after all based on our personal experiences, the more we weaken the structure, even though it may not be damagable. Isn't it better to create a border around our study of the text to limit it such that we don't cross this line into the uncertain realm of 'fanciful theories'? It is not as if there is nothing else to study. Wouldn't the answers to these thi! ngs come about in time?__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
