Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
[addressed to Scott] How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Susan: We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. Susan: The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. Gilberto: I'm not just addressing you. Some of your co-religionists on this forum have used phrases similar to each of the above. Susan: And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. Gilberto: By removing the context you misrepresented what I said. To begin with the initial question wasn't addressed to you at all but to Scott. And then you inserted yourself into the conversation speaking for We Bahais. So I addressed the various comments different Bahais have made recently in this forum. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least oneprophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date.
I don't think it is presumtuous to say "Hey killing folks who areminding their own business is generally wrong" or "stealing is a badthing to do"
Hajir: Since the world has changed and we today are living in a new world per the Most Holy Verse "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW CREATION hath come into being since the year nine (1853)", even the divine rules revealed by God in the Qur'an have been recreated through His new Revelation.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
How do you define "appropriate"? I would suggest we come up with somespecific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, andwhich can be applied in different situations.
Hajir:
This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself. Since God is beyond our capability to recognize Him, we must look to His Messenger and His Book as what is appropriate, what is right.
Now that the Manifestation of God has come, now that the Book foretold by the Qur'an as the Judge on the Day of Resurrection has appeared, the only right thing, the only appropriate thing, is to be humble before God and follow in His way.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Hajir: This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself. Since God is beyond our capability to recognize Him, we must look to His Messenger and His Book as what is appropriate, what is right. Ok. I think I understand your position. I've heard it before from other Bahais. But when I look at certain cases I think that view has certain difficulties. A good example would be the issue of slavery. As was brought up before, previous religions permitted slavery. But slavery was not allowed under the shariah of Bahaullah. But well *before* Bahaullah had anything to say about the subject, there were people in the West who looked at the institution of slavery in their own societies, using the values they already had saw something wrong with it, and did what they could to abolish it. So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text. Do you agree? -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text.Hajir:
Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age)took place around the time of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. To us, it was all related to the Revelation of God, whichrevolutionize the whole plant.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text. Hajir: Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age) took place around the time of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. To us, it was all related to the Revelation of God, which revolutionize the whole plant. Yes, I've heard that before too. I understand that Bahais could see it that way. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Well, let's see: someone does a bank robbery somewhere. He is caught and tried and incarcerated. I'd say that's appropriate nowadys, in this day and age. Now, is it appropriate to cut off his hand? Gilberto avoids this question and evades to give an answer. I think he knows that we understand that he knowingly evades. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death. Is this an appropriate sentence to this day and age? How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Instead what you seem to be doing is taking whatever prejudices and gut feelings you might have, and assuming that these are appropriate in determining what is appropriate or not at any given time. Don't just ask rhetorical questions and assume that the answer is no. If you believe stoning is inappropriate tell me specifically why. And whatever answer you give, you should be sure to explain how your criteria let's you say that stoning is inappropirate, but burning someone alive (the Bahai punishment for arson) is okey-dokey. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Dear Susan, Gilberto is hell bent on misrepresenting you, Khazeh, Scott, and others. He is not going to stop doing that. It's just totally pointless to try to reason with him because he has left his mind and reasoning power somewhere in the 7th century on some desert. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: [addressed to Scott] How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Susan: We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. Susan: The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. Gilberto: I'm not just addressing you. Some of your co-religionists on this forum have used phrases similar to each of the above. Susan: And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. Gilberto: By removing the context you misrepresented what I said. To begin with the initial question wasn't addressed to you at all but to Scott. And then you inserted yourself into the conversation speaking for We Bahais. So I addressed the various comments different Bahais have made recently in this forum. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Yes, I'd say cooperate also.
I'm not "academic", but I feel good in this forum, but please do not revolve persistently in the same topic.
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criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death. Is this an appropriate sentence to this day and age? How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Instead what you seem to be doing is taking whatever prejudices and gut feelings you might have, and assuming that these are appropriate in determining what is appropriate or not at any given time. Don't just ask rhetorical questions and assume that the answer is no. If you believe stoning is inappropriate tell me specifically why. And whatever answer you give, you should be sure to explain how your criteria let's you say that stoning is inappropirate, but burning someone alive (the Bahai punishment for arson) is okey-dokey. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. I don't think it is presumtuous to say Hey killing folks who are minding their own business is generally wrong or stealing is a bad thing to do -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
