re: puzzled by "Jim",
Dear Jim, Being a bit confused about your own position with regard to this statement: "What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said." [While I appreciate the clarification offered in response to Khazeh. I'm still not certain if you are advocating the promotion of personal desires or admonishing those who do... in "the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth"] ... and your following up question re: Seven Valleys and Four Valley with further quotes from the Hidden Words - suggest to me that perhaps you feel you have reached some degree of spiritual insight that perhaps others are unaware. Each of us have capacity for spiritual insight to lesser and greater degrees. To be truly informed of the innermost mysteries hidden in the Sacred Writings carries certain conditions and prerequisites as Baha'u'llah describes: "Shouldst thou desire to apprehend these celestial allusions, to witness the mysteries of divine knowledge, and to become acquainted with His all-encompassing Word, then it behoveth thine eminence to inquire into these and other questions pertaining to thine origin and ultimate goal from those whom God hath made to be the Wellspring of His knowledge, the Heaven of His wisdom, and the Ark of His mysteries. For were it not for those effulgent Lights that shine above the horizon of His Essence, the people would know not their left hand from their right, how much less could they scale the heights of the inner realities or probe the depths of their subtleties! Whosoever entereth this city will comprehend every science before probing into its mysteries and will acquire from the leaves of its trees a knowledge and wisdom encompassing such mysteries of divine lordship as are enshrined within the treasuries of creation." (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 14) Abdu'l-Baha further warns us: "When man is not endowed with inner perception he is not informed of these important mysteries. *The retina of outer vision though sensitive and delicate may nevertheless be a hindrance to the inner eye which alone can perceive. The bestowals of God which are manifest in all phenomenal life are sometimes hidden by intervening veils of mental and mortal vision which render man spiritually blind and incapable* but when those scales are removed and the veils rent asunder, then the great signs of God will become visible and he will witness the eternal light filling the world." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 266) And to sum up my personal view... I think it IS possible to have TOO MUCH of a GOOD thing and offer this quote from Baha'u'llah: " It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favourably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavours exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. " (Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 112-114) Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
In separate postings between May 25 and May 28, Jim Habegger wrote items A through D below, except text in square brackets are my insertions to clarify what I think was his meaning: A.) ... when I said to "imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance," I didn't mean that I thought it would be possible for that to happen, or that I could see any way to reconcile that with the writings... I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. B.) ... What I am suggesting is that we each have [everyone has] a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our [their] knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. C.) ... To put that in context, I could say with equal confidence that it pleases God for each of us [for everyone] to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our [their] knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said. D.) ... using the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice as an example, I think the following would *not* be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions: - Discussing it with other Baha'is, online or offline, to get ideas about how to make a better case for it. - Discussing it with other Baha'is, looking for someone who might be better placed to bring the case to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Educating other Baha'is about the issues raised in the paper on women's service, with the hope that eventually someone will learn about them who can make a better case for it, or who will be better placed to bring it to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Writing to the Universal House of Justice about bringing the question to an international institution for the resolution of religious conflicts, if there were such a thing, and doing so if the House of Justice does not instruct otherwise. Dear Jim, You seem to think that good intentions matter far more (or at least matter far more to God) than bad results. I think our behavior matters far more to the world and to the course of history than our intentions. That we mean to do something good or that we are sincere doesn't matter as much as how we act and what the results actually are. Although I think good intentions always matter to God, if we do something bad because of our unwisdom, the bad results are not avoided merely because we "meant well." I think good intentions often have bad results because of lack of knowledge or wisdom, and, although the good intentions make it easier for us to understand or forgive the person, nonetheless the world lives with the repercussions of the unintended results. I see you as having personality which is a very sympathizing, and I think that if there were anyone in the whole world who might fall into your hypothetical category, you would find them, sympathize with them, strive to see things from their point of view and try to assist them. That may be a good thing. However, please keep in mind that it may be harmful to assist people to promote viewpoints and interpretations which "can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension" (Universal House of Justice, 1997 June 3), no matter how sincere the promoter may be. With respect, --- Vaughn __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
"What about the Universal House of Justice? Do you believe they are also always right? Yes, they are not omniscient, but do you believe their decisions always 'the truth and the purpose of God Himself'?" "That which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is verily the truth and the purpose of God Himself." (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 19) I believe that with all my mind and with all my heart. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Dear all, I am glad that Jim has apologised to Susan! The patience and understanding shown by her is commendable. I note that the group becomes very active when something confusing comes up so it is positive in an ironic way. I suppose this helps us all to stop and think about how we interact with others or sometimes just ignore contraversial issues. Its a fine balance to achieve moderation and observe love to all. Thanks to this group I am learning more each day. Love to all Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Habegger Sent: 29 May 2005 12:51 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: RE: puzzled by "Jim" Susan, I'm sorry I trouble you so much. This climber says with some dismay, "I must leave this mountain for another day." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 27/05/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 27/05/2005 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Susan, I'm sorry I trouble you so much. This climber says with some dismay, "I must leave this mountain for another day." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Dear Jim, As one of the moderators of this list I would like to ask you to stop posting quotations here without comment. This behavior is not in keeping with the list purpose which is Baha'i scholarship. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
Jim, >Here are my axioms:>- Baha'u'llah is always right. What about the Universal House of Justice? Do you believe they are also always right? Yes, they are not omniscient, but do you believe their decisions always "the truth and the purpose of God Himself"? Tim Nolan__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
And your point is? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
"The pen steppeth not into this region, the ink leaveth only a blot. In these planes, the nightingale of the heart hath other songs and secrets, which make the heart to stir and the soul to clamor, but this mystery of inner meaning may be whispered only from heart to heart, confided only from breast to breast." (Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 30) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
"The denizens of this plane speak no words -- but they gallop their chargers. They see but the inner reality of the Beloved. To them all words of sense are meaningless, and senseless words are full of meaning. They cannot tell one limb from another, one part from another. To them the mirage is the real river; to them going away is returning." (Baha'u'llah, The Four Valleys, p. 55) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Has anyone here ever read the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys? Dear Jim, Why are you asking a question like that? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
". . . yet, alas, there is no ear to hear, nor heart to understand." (Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words) Why are you putting up that phrase? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: puzzled by "Jim"
>What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and >kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting >ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. If the best of your knowledge, understanding, and capacity seems to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said, I would think you would have a responsibility *not* to promote it. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Iskandar, you are very welcome to jump in! "As you know, the whole theme of the Bayan, the Aqdas, and just about all of our Sacred Writings is that acquiring or attaining the good pleasure of God is the only thing that counts. Right?" Absolutely. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
". . . yet, alas, there is no ear to hear, nor heart to understand." (Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Has anyone here ever read the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
I haven't been following this thread very closley but the following just struck me. Perhaps you made a typographical error or something? I knw that Susan and Khazeh responded to you quite cogently. As you know, the whole theme of the BayAn, the Aqdas, and just about all of our Sacred Writings is that acquiring or attaining the good pleasure of God is the only thing that counts. Right? Sorry to jump in; and I apologize if I misunderstood you. Me too, I'm quite puzzled. Loving regards, Iskandar On Sat, 28 May 2005, Jim Habegger wrote: > Khazeh, do you see any reason in the Constitution of the Universal House of > Justice, to disagree with my view that it pleases God for each of us to > promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the > best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means > promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said? > > Jim > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
do you see any reason in the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice, to disagree with my view that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said? Jim "To put that in context, I could say with equal confidence that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said." Jim Jim with all due respect and courtesy you cannot work with this contradiction. Let me first give you an interesting historical account which is in all the Shi'ih Books [and the essence of which is quoted by His holiness Baha'u'llah] In Islam there is a call to prayer [an adhaan] in the wording of which the caller [the mu'adhdhin] testifies on behalf of himself and the Community [the ummat] that God is One and that Muhammad is God's Rasuul [Messenger] For adhaan see http://www.islamsa.org.za/library/books/bzewar/part2/adhaan_call_to_prayer.h tm Now in Shi'ah Books it is recorded that one day a Caller to Prayer was in the presence of the 8th Imam the Imam Rid.a and the Caller said I have been calling to prayer for seventy years. And is that not a wonderful thing to have done for my fellow human beings? The Imam replied: Did you utter this call to prayer with its "necessary pre-conditions and requirements"? = be-shart.ihaa wa shuruut.ihaa The Mu'adhdhin replied: What do you mean? What are its necessary pre-conditions and requirements"? = be-shart.ihaa wa shuruut.ihaa? The Imam Rid.a replied: ana min shuruut.ihaa= I am one of its necessary pre-conditions [and in one of His very early Tablets Baha'u'llah says exactly the same: = be-shart.ihaa wa shuruut.ihaa wa ana min shuruut.ihaa http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MR/mr-373.html#pg372 on the first line of this page http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MR/mr-373.html#pg372 also here: line 8 http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/DD/dd-146.html#pg143 in recounting the above my intention is for us to see the identity /the holistic purpose/ of the good that should emanate from our commitment to the source and centre. That they are one. In fact Universal in the Original is 'Umuumi [ie for all]. Say all are of God. In fact in Their most recent Document humanity is invited to see things with the EYE OF BAHA'U'LLAH Freed from the thickets with which theology has hedged religious understanding about, the mind is able to explore familiar SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES THROUGH THE EYES OF BAHÁ'U'LLÁH. (Commissioned by The Universal House of Justice, One Common Faith) *** Section 19 of that Document is also most relevant for you 9 The problem is, of course, twofold. The rational soul does not merely occupy a private sphere, but is an active participant in a social order (Commissioned by The Universal House of Justice, One Common Faith) Jesus Christ addressed his disciple and said be fishers of individuals...Baha'u'llah invited them to be the life-givers=quickeners of mankind What other interpretation can be given to these words, addressed specifically by Baha'u'llah to the followers of the Gospel, in which the fundamental distinction between the Mission of Jesus Christ, concerning primarily the individual, and His own Message, DIRECTED MORE PARTICULARLY TO MANKIND AS A WHOLE, has been definitely established: "Verily, He [Jesus] said: `Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.' In this day, however, We say: `Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become the quickeners of mankind.'" (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 119-120) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
"To put that in context, I could say with equal confidence that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said." Dear Jim, What you seem to be saying is that we should promnote whatever we personally *think* is the best interests of people. That is not what Baha'u'llah says. He says we should promote what is in their best interests but He never suggests that the individual is the final arbitrator as to what that is. On the contrary, He insists His Writings are. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
"What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said." Dear Jim, That sentence strikes me as contradictory in and of itself. It presupposes that the House's decisions are contrary to what promotes the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, something which the Will and Testament explciitly denies when it calls the House "the source of all good." warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Khazeh, do you see any reason in the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice, to disagree with my view that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by "Jim"
Dear brother Khazeh, greetings! Here are my axioms: - Baha'u'llah is always right. What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. I'm not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm just saying what I think, and I'm asking for any evidence anyone has, contrary to what I'm suggesting. Jim Also To put that in context, I could say with equal confidence that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said. Jim The problem with above is that you may see a dialectic a contradiction intrinsic and inseparable therein but this servant does not see anything of that. In other words no dialectic or contradiction. So Maybe brother Jim we need to be deeper in our understanding of the Universal House of Justice. Because of you dear Jim I re-studied Its Constitution: http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/constitution.html the key words are highlighted [by this servant] TO THE PERFECTION OF HIS JUSTICE AND TO THE FULFILMENT OF HIS ANCIENT PROMISE. I think the FULFILMENT OF HIS ANCIENT PROMISE refers inter alia to * Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isa 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. * Heb 7:11 If therefore PERFECTION were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after ...*** ***With joyous and thankful hearts we testify to the abundance of God's Mercy, TO THE PERFECTION OF HIS JUSTICE AND TO THE FULFILMENT OF HIS ANCIENT PROMISE. Baha'u'llah, the Revealer of God's Word in this Day, the Source of Authority, the Fountainhead of Justice, the Creator of a new World Order, the Establisher of the Most Great Peace, the Inspirer and Founder of a world civilization, the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of all mankind, has proclaimed the advent of God's Kingdom on earth, has formulated its laws and ordinances, enunciated its principles, and ordained its institutions. To direct and canalize the forces released by His Revelation He instituted His Covenant whose power has preserved the integrity of His Faith, maintained its unity and stimulated it world-wide expansion throughout the successive ministries of `Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. It continues to fulfil its life-giving purpose through the agency of the Universal House of Justice whose fundamental object, as one of the twin successors of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, is to ensure the continuity of that divinely- appointed authority which flows, and to maintain the integrity and flexibility of its teachings The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Baha'u'llah which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and the Guardian of the Cause - who, after `Abdu'l-Baha, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Baha'i Scripture - constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power. There being no successor to Shoghi Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the Universal House of Justice is the Head of the Faith and its supreme institution, to which all must turn, and in it rests the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the unity and progress of the Cause of God... Among the powers and duties with which the Universal House of Justice has been invested are: To ensure the preservation of the Sacred Texts and to safeguard their inviolability; to analyze, classify, and coordinate the Writings; and to defend and protect the Cause of God and emancipate it from the fetters of repression and persecutio
re: puzzled by "Jim"
Sorry! I'm posting on the Web, and I keep forgetting that this is a mailing list. I'm suggesting that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said. I'm not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm only saying what I think, and asking for any reasons anyone sees, to disagree with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
Again, I am not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm only saying what I think, and asking for any reasons anyone sees, to disagree with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
To put that in context, I could say with equal confidence that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by "Jim"
Dear brother Khazeh, greetings! Here are my axioms: - Baha'u'llah is always right. What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. I'm not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm just saying what I think, and I'm asking for any evidence anyone has, contrary to what I'm suggesting. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
