[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[dyoung5...@wowway.com]

If you keep the little finger on or behind the bridge, where its supposed to 
be, there is no problem. Look at all the pictures.  Read the instructions. 
Stretch the thumb toward the rose. Flatten the hand. I'm still working at 
it. "Baroque" lute only. 1600 on...Sent from my Verizon 
Wireless Phone- Reply message -From: "Edward 
Martin" Date: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 7:53 
pmSubject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'InfideleTo: "Rob 
MacKillop" , "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
When I started baroque lute 30 
years ago (!!), I had difficulty at first, but I learned to accommodate the 
stretches.  On 13 course lute, I seldom rest the pinky on the 
soundboard, and when playing the first 2 courses with my middle or ring 
finger (with the thumb on 12th or 13th course), they (ring or ring fingers) 
are stretched ou!
 t.The trick is to not change the sound of the first 2 courses, while 
stretching deeply.  It takes 
practice.edAt 03:05 AM 10/4/2011, Rob MacKillop 
wrote:>Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for 
>right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not 
to >look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly 
>growing in confidence...until I read through Weiss' 
L'Infidele.>>It's years since I listened to anyone play 
this suite, and it was a >great joy to start reading through the Entree: 
'Hey, I can do >this!'. I read the Courante slowly, but thinking 
it a possibility I >will one day be able to play it up tempo. The 
Sarabande, like all >Weiss Sarabandes, is sublimely beautiful. The 
minuet lies under the >fingers. So, I was beginning to think this is a 
suite I can get my >teeth i!
 nto. Then I hit the Musette...>>Bar 4 demands th!
 e thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and >(presumably) the 
ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute >is 153mm, and I have 
large hands. I should be able to do this, but >is is very hard. I can 
manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm >does not seem excessive, 
and is pretty much bang in the middle of >all surviving 13c bridges, in 
other words an average size. Will >practise of this passage make my 
stretch longer?>>Anyone else have problems with this passage? I 
seem (in desperation, >maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally 
the low A was up an >octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was 
written in later. >Any info on that?>>Rob 
MacKillop>>>www.robmackillop.netTo
 get on or off this list see list information at>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html";>http://www.cs.d!
 artmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlEdward 
Martin2817 East 2nd StreetDuluth, Minnesota  55812e-mail: 
 e...@gamutstrings.comvoice:  (218) 728-1202http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name";>http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=namehttp://www.myspace.com/edslute";>http://www.myspace.com/edslutehttp://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin";>http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Edward Martin]

When I started baroque lute 30 years ago (!!), I had difficulty at 
first, but I learned to accommodate the stretches.  On 13 course 
lute, I seldom rest the pinky on the soundboard, and when playing the 
first 2 courses with my middle or ring finger (with the thumb on 12th 
or 13th course), they (ring or ring fingers) are stretched out.

The trick is to not change the sound of the first 2 courses, while 
stretching deeply.  It takes practice.

ed





At 03:05 AM 10/4/2011, Rob MacKillop wrote:
>Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for 
>right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to 
>look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly 
>growing in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
>
>It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a 
>great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do 
>this!'. I read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I 
>will one day be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all 
>Weiss Sarabandes, is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the 
>fingers. So, I was beginning to think this is a suite I can get my 
>teeth into. Then I hit the Musette...
>
>Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and 
>(presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute 
>is 153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but 
>is is very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm 
>does not seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of 
>all surviving 13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will 
>practise of this passage make my stretch longer?
>
>Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation, 
>maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an 
>octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. 
>Any info on that?
>
>Rob MacKillop
>
>
>www.robmackillop.net
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute
http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Benjamin Narvey]

Indeed. Martin Haycock made my 13c with 142 spacing after Hoffman, and it works 
great for me; not only is it much easier to play treble and bass, but sweeps 
and French fingerings in particular are much, much easier. Mind, I do have very 
small hands.

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 oct. 2011, at 23:49, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

> That's getting on the wide side, Sterling. Would you have a problem with Bar 
> 4 of L'Infidele? I agree that close spacing is difficult. I don't know how 
> people can play with a string band of less than 148, but they do. People find 
> a way.
> 
> Rob
> 
> www.robmackillop.net 
> 
> On 4 Oct 2011, at 22:34, sterling price  wrote:
> 
>>  The bridge spacing I use is 157mm and is based on a large Edlinger.
>>  Whenever I play a lute with a spacing much smaller than this, I find it
>>  very difficult to play.
>> 
>>  --Sterling
>>  From: Rob MacKillop 
>>  To: BAROQUE-LUTE 
>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:05 AM
>>  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
>>  Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
>>  right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
>>  look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
>>  in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
>>  It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
>>  great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
>>  read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
>>  be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
>>  is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
>>  beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
>>  the Musette...
>>  Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
>>  (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
>>  153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
>>  very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
>>  seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
>>  13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
>>  passage make my stretch longer?
>>  Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
>>  maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
>>  octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
>>  info on that?
>>  Rob MacKillop
>>  [1]www.robmackillop.net
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. http://www.robmackillop.net/
>> 
> 
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

That's getting on the wide side, Sterling. Would you have a problem with Bar 4 
of L'Infidele? I agree that close spacing is difficult. I don't know how people 
can play with a string band of less than 148, but they do. People find a way.

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

On 4 Oct 2011, at 22:34, sterling price  wrote:

>   The bridge spacing I use is 157mm and is based on a large Edlinger.
>   Whenever I play a lute with a spacing much smaller than this, I find it
>   very difficult to play.
> 
>   --Sterling
>   From: Rob MacKillop 
>   To: BAROQUE-LUTE 
>   Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:05 AM
>   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
>   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
>   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
>   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
>   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
>   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
>   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
>   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
>   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
>   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
>   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
>   the Musette...
>   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
>   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
>   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
>   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
>   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
>   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
>   passage make my stretch longer?
>   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
>   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
>   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
>   info on that?
>   Rob MacKillop
>   [1]www.robmackillop.net
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.robmackillop.net/
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[sterling price]

   The bridge spacing I use is 157mm and is based on a large Edlinger.
   Whenever I play a lute with a spacing much smaller than this, I find it
   very difficult to play.

   --Sterling
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   To: BAROQUE-LUTE 
   Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:05 AM
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
   the Musette...
   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
   passage make my stretch longer?
   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
   info on that?
   Rob MacKillop
   [1]www.robmackillop.net
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.robmackillop.net/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele

[William Samson]

   Hi Chris,
   Thanks for the information.  I've looked at my copy of Douglas Alton
   Smith's translation of Baron, and the engraving of Baron certainly
   shows what looks like 12 courses.  The pegbox has ten pegs on the bass
   side.  Another ten plus rider on the other side would give 21 strings -
   not enough for two single courses plus ten double courses to give a 12
   course lute.  If the 12th course is an octave string only, it's doable,
   but I don't know of any evidence for this.  Of course the artist could
   easily have got the number of pegs wrong.  Food for thought!
   Bill
   [1]http://jdf.luth.pagesperso-orange.fr/Images/Baron.jpg
   From: Christopher Wilke 
   To: Rob MacKillop ; William Samson
   
   Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 18:21
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
   Bill,
 I believe Baron played a 12 course.  He's picture with one and I
   remember reading that nearly all of his music only calls for 12.
   Although the 13th course is found in a few pieces, it was probably
   written in later.  I have spent virtually no time with Baron's music,
   so I can't really say.
   Chris
   Christopher Wilke
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   --- On Tue, 10/4/11, William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   > From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
   > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
   > To: "Rob MacKillop" <[4]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   > Cc: "[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 12:48 PM
   >I've no idea -
   > don't know much at all about Weiss or the sources.
   >What does interest me, though, is your
   > reference to his use of 12
   >courses.  I wonder if this was just
   > the usual 13c lute and the music
   >didn't call for the 13th course, or could
   > it have been a distinct type
   >of lute, intermediate between the 11c and
   > the 13c lute?  I would
   >think the 2-headed 12c lute of Mace and
   > Jacques Gaultier would have
   >fallen out of fashion by that time so is
   > this a one headed (with
   >rider(s)) lute?  Is there any museum
   > specimen or iconography to support
   >its existence?
   >Any thoughts?
   >Bill
   >From: Rob MacKillop <[7]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   >To: Louis Aull <[8]aul...@comcast.net>
   >Cc: "<[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>"
   > <[10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 17:21
   >Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
   >Is there a notable difference between the
   > London and Dresden scores in
   >how Weiss actually played?
   >I see the London ms as what we might call
   > 'Early Weiss' - 11c, 12c and
   >13c bass rider lutes, dramatic harmony,
   > shorter dance movements,
   >fingered bass notes on low courses - and
   > Dresden as 'Late Weiss' -
   >swan-knecked theorbo lute, no fingered
   > bass note below the 8th course,
   >more cohesion (less drama), more complex
   > modulations, longer, more
   >developed galanterien.
   >Is this how most of us see it, and if so,
   > are there other indicators of
   >the development of Weiss's technique?
   >Although I have played an 11c lute
   > before, I saved Weiss for when I had
   >a 13c. The amount of music he left us is
   > overwhelming. What a treasure!
   >Rob
   >To get on or off this list see list
   > information at
   >[1][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://jdf.luth.pagesperso-orange.fr/Images/Baron.jpg
   2. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   3. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   4. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
   5. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:aul...@comcast.net
   9. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele

[Christopher Wilke]

Bill,

   I believe Baron played a 12 course.  He's picture with one and I remember 
reading that nearly all of his music only calls for 12.  Although the 13th 
course is found in a few pieces, it was probably written in later.  I have 
spent virtually no time with Baron's music, so I can't really say.

Chris




Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


--- On Tue, 10/4/11, William Samson  wrote:

> From: William Samson 
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
> To: "Rob MacKillop" 
> Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
> Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 12:48 PM
>    I've no idea -
> don't know much at all about Weiss or the sources.
>    What does interest me, though, is your
> reference to his use of 12
>    courses.  I wonder if this was just
> the usual 13c lute and the music
>    didn't call for the 13th course, or could
> it have been a distinct type
>    of lute, intermediate between the 11c and
> the 13c lute?  I would
>    think the 2-headed 12c lute of Mace and
> Jacques Gaultier would have
>    fallen out of fashion by that time so is
> this a one headed (with
>    rider(s)) lute?  Is there any museum
> specimen or iconography to support
>    its existence?
>    Any thoughts?
>    Bill
>    From: Rob MacKillop 
>    To: Louis Aull 
>    Cc: ""
> 
>    Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 17:21
>    Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
>    Is there a notable difference between the
> London and Dresden scores in
>    how Weiss actually played?
>    I see the London ms as what we might call
> 'Early Weiss' - 11c, 12c and
>    13c bass rider lutes, dramatic harmony,
> shorter dance movements,
>    fingered bass notes on low courses - and
> Dresden as 'Late Weiss' -
>    swan-knecked theorbo lute, no fingered
> bass note below the 8th course,
>    more cohesion (less drama), more complex
> modulations, longer, more
>    developed galanterien.
>    Is this how most of us see it, and if so,
> are there other indicators of
>    the development of Weiss's technique?
>    Although I have played an 11c lute
> before, I saved Weiss for when I had
>    a 13c. The amount of music he left us is
> overwhelming. What a treasure!
>    Rob
>    To get on or off this list see list
> information at
>    [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>    --
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele

[William Samson]

   I've no idea - don't know much at all about Weiss or the sources.
   What does interest me, though, is your reference to his use of 12
   courses.  I wonder if this was just the usual 13c lute and the music
   didn't call for the 13th course, or could it have been a distinct type
   of lute, intermediate between the 11c and the 13c lute?  I would
   think the 2-headed 12c lute of Mace and Jacques Gaultier would have
   fallen out of fashion by that time so is this a one headed (with
   rider(s)) lute?  Is there any museum specimen or iconography to support
   its existence?
   Any thoughts?
   Bill
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   To: Louis Aull 
   Cc: "" 
   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 17:21
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele
   Is there a notable difference between the London and Dresden scores in
   how Weiss actually played?
   I see the London ms as what we might call 'Early Weiss' - 11c, 12c and
   13c bass rider lutes, dramatic harmony, shorter dance movements,
   fingered bass notes on low courses - and Dresden as 'Late Weiss' -
   swan-knecked theorbo lute, no fingered bass note below the 8th course,
   more cohesion (less drama), more complex modulations, longer, more
   developed galanterien.
   Is this how most of us see it, and if so, are there other indicators of
   the development of Weiss's technique?
   Although I have played an 11c lute before, I saved Weiss for when I had
   a 13c. The amount of music he left us is overwhelming. What a treasure!
   Rob
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

Is there a notable difference between the London and Dresden scores in how 
Weiss actually played? 

I see the London ms as what we might call 'Early Weiss' - 11c, 12c and 13c bass 
rider lutes, dramatic harmony, shorter dance movements, fingered bass notes on 
low courses - and Dresden as 'Late Weiss' - swan-knecked theorbo lute, no 
fingered bass note below the 8th course, more cohesion (less drama), more 
complex modulations, longer, more developed galanterien.

Is this how most of us see it, and if so, are there other indicators of the 
development of Weiss's technique? 

Although I have played an 11c lute before, I saved Weiss for when I had a 13c. 
The amount of music he left us is overwhelming. What a treasure!
Rob




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'infidele

[Louis Aull]

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob,



I'll second the lifting of the pinky off the soundboard. If you watch some
of the videos of this suite and other Weiss suites, some performers, perhaps
without thinking, allow the thumb stretch to pull the finger off the
soundboard. (Barto does) The roll of the wrist also moves the touch point of
the flesh on the finger tips. The biggest concern is the tone of the bass
and treble notes at that stretch. That's what requires work.



Louis Aull

Phone: 770.978.1872

Fax: 866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614

LOGO3




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http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; 
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>















Rob,

 

I’ll second the lifting of the pinky off the
soundboard. If you watch some of the videos of this suite and other Weiss
suites, some performers, perhaps without thinking, allow the thumb stretch to
pull the finger off the soundboard. (Barto does) The roll of the wrist also
moves the touch point of the flesh on the finger tips. The biggest concern is
the tone of the bass and treble notes at that stretch. That’s what
requires work.

 

Louis
Aull

Phone:
770.978.1872

Fax:
866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614  




 







--=_NextPart_001_0002_01CC828B.B8FC28A0--

--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

Robert Barto uses a string band of 152mm, no real difference to my 153mm, so I 
have nothing to complain about. Just get on with it, MacKillop!

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

On 4 Oct 2011, at 14:06, William Samson  wrote:

>   At a quick glance I'd say that the median is about 146mm.
> 
>   I'd love to see similar figures for 11c lutes.  I once heard an eminent
>   maker say that they tended to be more widely spaced than the first 11
>   courses of a 13 course lute, and it would be nice to see that confirmed
>   (or not) with hard evidence.
> 
>   Incidentally, Diana Poulton had small hands, and she always played with
>   her little finger on the bridge.
> 
>   Bill
>   From: Rob MacKillop 
>   To: William Samson 
>   Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; BAROQUE-LUTE
>   
>   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 12:44
>   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
>   Thanks, Bill. That's it. To which Malcolm added a few more, including
>   the bizarre c.160mm on the small Berr, the smallest lute but with the
>   largest string band.
>   Thanks to all the advice on different approaches to managing these
>   stretches. I'll give them all a go.
>   Rob
>   www.robmackillop.net
>   On 4 Oct 2011, at 12:02, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
>   wrote:
>> Hi Martyn,
>> I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the
>   archive:
>> 
>> 
>   [1][2]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Bill
>> From: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> To: BAROQUE-LUTE <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Rob MacKillop
>> <[5]robmackil...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
>>   Dear Rob,
>>   It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the
>   BL
>> MS
>>   is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course
>   being
>>   altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
>>   I think there are two factors here:
>>   1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
>>   extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
>>   plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
>> and
>>   13th to be plucked simultaneously.
>>   2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
>> 153mm
>>   isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
>>   (1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
>>   drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
>>   inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
>>   several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
>> seperation
>>   reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
>>   earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
>>   seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later
>   large
>>   theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course
>   seperation.
>>   However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
>> with
>>   a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann
>   as
>>   witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late
>   'galant'
>>   type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
>>   singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand:
>   in
>>   DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the
>   courses
>>   and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
>>   manipulated very easily'.
>>   Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
>>   analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average
>   of
>>   153mm?
>>   regards,
>>   Martyn
>> From: Rob MacKillop <[2][6]robmackil...@gmail.com>
>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
>> To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3][7]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
>>   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
>>   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not
>   to
>>   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly
>   growing
>>   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
>>   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was
>   a
>>   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do
>   this!'.
>> I
>>   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
>> day
>>   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
>> Sarabandes,
>>   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I
>   was
>>   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
>> hit
>>   the Musette...
>>   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th
>   and
>>   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my
>   lute
>> is
>>   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is
>   is
>>   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a str

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[William Samson]

   At a quick glance I'd say that the median is about 146mm.

   I'd love to see similar figures for 11c lutes.  I once heard an eminent
   maker say that they tended to be more widely spaced than the first 11
   courses of a 13 course lute, and it would be nice to see that confirmed
   (or not) with hard evidence.

   Incidentally, Diana Poulton had small hands, and she always played with
   her little finger on the bridge.

   Bill
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   To: William Samson 
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; BAROQUE-LUTE
   
   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 12:44
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
   Thanks, Bill. That's it. To which Malcolm added a few more, including
   the bizarre c.160mm on the small Berr, the smallest lute but with the
   largest string band.
   Thanks to all the advice on different approaches to managing these
   stretches. I'll give them all a go.
   Rob
   www.robmackillop.net
   On 4 Oct 2011, at 12:02, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
   wrote:
   >  Hi Martyn,
   >  I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the
   archive:
   >
   >
   [1][2]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html
   >
   >  Best regards,
   >  Bill
   >  From: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   >  To: BAROQUE-LUTE <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Rob MacKillop
   >  <[5]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   >  Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
   >Dear Rob,
   >It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the
   BL
   >  MS
   >is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course
   being
   >altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
   >I think there are two factors here:
   >1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
   >extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
   >plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
   >  and
   >13th to be plucked simultaneously.
   >2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
   >  153mm
   >isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
   >(1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
   >drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
   >inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
   >several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
   >  seperation
   >reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
   >earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
   >seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later
   large
   >theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course
   seperation.
   >However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
   >  with
   >a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann
   as
   >witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late
   'galant'
   >type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
   >singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand:
   in
   >DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the
   courses
   >and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
   >manipulated very easily'.
   >Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
   >analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average
   of
   >153mm?
   >regards,
   >Martyn
   >  From: Rob MacKillop <[2][6]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
   >  To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3][7]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >  Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
   >Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   >right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not
   to
   >look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly
   growing
   >in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   >It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was
   a
   >great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do
   this!'.
   >  I
   >read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
   >  day
   >be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
   >  Sarabandes,
   >is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I
   was
   >beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
   >  hit
   >the Musette...
   >Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th
   and
   >(presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my
   lute
   >  is
   >153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is
   is
   >very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
   >  not
   >seem excessive, and is

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Bill,

   Indeed these are the figures I recall.

   The average of all them all is 148.  As already remarked, the Edlinger
   (and some other Hapsburg lands instruments) seem generally bigger  than
   most at around 155mm; whereas the Hoffmann's (North German) seem to be
   generally in the mid 140s.  Perhaps reflecting local tastes? - but too
   small a sample to draw any clear conclusions.

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 4/10/11, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "BAROQUE-LUTE"
 , "Rob MacKillop"
 
 Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 12:02

  Hi Martyn,
  I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the
   archive:
  [1][1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.htm
   l
  Best regards,
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: BAROQUE-LUTE <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Rob MacKillop
  <[4]robmackil...@gmail.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
Dear Rob,
It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the
   BL
  MS
is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course
   being
altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
I think there are two factors here:
1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
  and
13th to be plucked simultaneously.
2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
  153mm
isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
(1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
  seperation
reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later
   large
theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course
   seperation.
However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
  with
a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann
   as
witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late
   'galant'
type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand:
   in
DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the
   courses
and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
manipulated very easily'.
Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average
   of
153mm?
regards,
Martyn
  From: Rob MacKillop <[2][5]robmackil...@gmail.com>
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
  To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3][6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not
   to
look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly
   growing
in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was
   a
great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do
   this!'.
  I
read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
  day
be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
  Sarabandes,
is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I
   was
beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
  hit
the Musette...
Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th
   and
(presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my
   lute
  is
153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is
   is
very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
  not
seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all
  surviving
13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
passage make my stretch longer?
Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in
   desperation,
maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up
   an
octave at the 6th co

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, Bill. That's it. To which Malcolm added a few more, including the 
bizarre c.160mm on the small Berr, the smallest lute but with the largest 
string band.

Thanks to all the advice on different approaches to managing these stretches. 
I'll give them all a go. 

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

On 4 Oct 2011, at 12:02, William Samson  wrote:

>   Hi Martyn,
>   I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the archive:
> 
>   [1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html
> 
>   Best regards,
>   Bill
>   From: Martyn Hodgson 
>   To: BAROQUE-LUTE ; Rob MacKillop
>   
>   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
>   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
> Dear Rob,
> It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the BL
>   MS
> is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course being
> altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
> I think there are two factors here:
> 1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
> extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
> plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
>   and
> 13th to be plucked simultaneously.
> 2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
>   153mm
> isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
> (1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
> drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
> inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
> several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
>   seperation
> reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
> earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
> seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later large
> theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course seperation.
> However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
>   with
> a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann as
> witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late 'galant'
> type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
> singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand: in
> DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the courses
> and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
> manipulated very easily'.
> Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
> analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average of
> 153mm?
> regards,
> Martyn
>   From: Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com>
>   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
>   To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
> Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
> right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
> look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
> in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
> It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
> great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'.
>   I
> read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
>   day
> be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
>   Sarabandes,
> is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
> beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
>   hit
> the Musette...
> Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
> (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute
>   is
> 153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
> very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
>   not
> seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all
>   surviving
> 13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
> passage make my stretch longer?
> Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
> maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
> octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later.
>   Any
> info on that?
> Rob MacKillop
> www.robmackillop.net
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>   References
> 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html
>   2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/l

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Christopher Wilke]

Hi Rob,

Here's something you can try for chords like this: With your thumb well out 
in advance of the fingers, lift the pinky off the soundboard, rotate the 
knuckles parallel to the floor and bend the wrist away from the belly.  (This 
will essentially turn your right hand into a modern classical guitarist's - 
horrid sacrilege, I know ;-)  If you're already playing close to the bridge, 
you can manage this with your pinky down if you place it on the bridge.  You'll 
have to really bend the tip joints if you don't want a super brittle tone.

Using this technique, I find the stretch quite easy and can do it 
comfortably with both p-i-a and p-i-m.  As Danny said, there are many similar 
things happening in later rep.

Chris


Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


--- On Tue, 10/4/11, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

> From: Rob MacKillop 
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
> To: "Daniel Shoskes" 
> Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
> Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 6:31 AM
> I can play the 13th and 1st courses
> simultaneously without too much of a problem. I think the
> problem is having the index also on the 5th. Like Martin, I
> play closer to the bridge when the extremes are called for,
> and by and large I think I will manage it, but it isn't
> easy. 
> 
> Interesting that the bass is notated on the 6th course in
> Dresden, where a swan-knecked lute may have been used, and
> on the 13th in London, where a treble and bass rider might
> have been used. This connects with Martin's suggestion that
> the more modern swan lute tended to have a wider spacing. I
> seem to have a bit of both.
> 
> I can't supply chapter and verse, Martin, for string
> spacings, but Malcolm and I did see a list from David Van
> Edwards of all (possibly) surviving bridges. I think 150 to
> 153 was the mean, with some as low as 140, others up to 160.
> I was more concerned about courses being too close together,
> which for me can be really annoying, so 153 seemed a good
> choice. If I can find that list, I'll post it here. 
> 
> As I say, I can manage it, but it isn't easy. I might go
> for the Dresden option, putting the bass up an octave.
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[William Samson]

   Hi Martyn,
   I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the archive:

   [1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html

   Best regards,
   Bill
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: BAROQUE-LUTE ; Rob MacKillop
   
   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
 Dear Rob,
 It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the BL
   MS
 is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course being
 altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
 I think there are two factors here:
 1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
 extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
 plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
   and
 13th to be plucked simultaneously.
 2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
   153mm
 isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
 (1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
 drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
 inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
 several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
   seperation
 reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
 earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
 seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later large
 theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course seperation.
 However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
   with
 a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann as
 witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late 'galant'
 type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
 singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand: in
 DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the courses
 and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
 manipulated very easily'.
 Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
 analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average of
 153mm?
 regards,
 Martyn
   From: Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
   To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
 Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
 right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
 look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
 in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
 It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
 great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'.
   I
 read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
   day
 be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
   Sarabandes,
 is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
 beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
   hit
 the Musette...
 Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
 (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute
   is
 153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
 very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
   not
 seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all
   surviving
 13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
 passage make my stretch longer?
 Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
 maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
 octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later.
   Any
 info on that?
 Rob MacKillop
 www.robmackillop.net
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html
   2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele and a technique for finding the basses

[Timothy Burris]

   Hi all,
   Something I've found useful in executing those nasty jumps in the bass
   register:
   1) Having the bass line in your head--and teaching your thumb to
   associate a pitch with a given course, and a musical leap with a
   physical one.
   To that end, I sing the bass line when learning tricky passages. When
   teaching the technique to students, I have them first do it without the
   lute, and then while playing (in the latter case, it's usually sung
   silently). As facility with the technique improves, doing it without
   the instrument becomes less necessary.
   2) An aid in carrying out #1 is to have a copy of the piece in piano
   score. For a number of years, I played baroque lute almost exclusively
   from piano score, and it did wonders for the accuracy of my right-hand
   thumb.
   Cheers.

   Timothy Burris
   www.baroquelute.com

   --


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

I can play the 13th and 1st courses simultaneously without too much of a 
problem. I think the problem is having the index also on the 5th. Like Martin, 
I play closer to the bridge when the extremes are called for, and by and large 
I think I will manage it, but it isn't easy. 

Interesting that the bass is notated on the 6th course in Dresden, where a 
swan-knecked lute may have been used, and on the 13th in London, where a treble 
and bass rider might have been used. This connects with Martin's suggestion 
that the more modern swan lute tended to have a wider spacing. I seem to have a 
bit of both.

I can't supply chapter and verse, Martin, for string spacings, but Malcolm and 
I did see a list from David Van Edwards of all (possibly) surviving bridges. I 
think 150 to 153 was the mean, with some as low as 140, others up to 160. I was 
more concerned about courses being too close together, which for me can be 
really annoying, so 153 seemed a good choice. If I can find that list, I'll 
post it here. 

As I say, I can manage it, but it isn't easy. I might go for the Dresden 
option, putting the bass up an octave.

Rob



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Daniel Shoskes]

The Dresden Ms version has that bass note up an octave. Nevertheless, it isn't 
the only example in Weiss of playing notes on the 1st and 13th course 
simultaneously (and if you travel further in time, Hagen and Falckenhagen)

Danny

On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:05 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

> Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for right-hand 
> string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to look at my right 
> hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing in confidence...until I 
> read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
> 
> It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a great joy 
> to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I read the 
> Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day be able to play 
> it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes, is sublimely 
> beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was beginning to think 
> this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit the Musette...
> 
> Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and 
> (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is 153mm, 
> and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is very hard. I 
> can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not seem excessive, and 
> is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving 13c bridges, in other 
> words an average size. Will practise of this passage make my stretch longer? 
> 
> Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation, maybe) 
> to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an octave at the 
> 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any info on that?
> 
> Rob MacKillop
> 
> 
> www.robmackillop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Rob,

   It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the BL MS
   is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course being
   altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).

   I think there are two factors here:

   1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
   extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
   plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first and
   13th to be plucked simultaneously.

   2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of 153mm
   isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
   (1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
   drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
   inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
   several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course seperation
   reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
   earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
   seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later large
   theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course seperation.
   However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument with
   a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann as
   witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late 'galant'
   type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
   singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand: in
   DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the courses
   and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
   manipulated very easily'.

   Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
   analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average of
   153mm?

   regards,

   Martyn

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
 To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05

   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
   the Musette...
   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
   passage make my stretch longer?
   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
   info on that?
   Rob MacKillop
   www.robmackillop.net
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[William Samson]

   Hi Rob,
   I have no knowledge of the source of this suite. Do you know if it is
   in Weiss's own hand?
   I'm opening myself up to brickbats here, but it is usual for classical
   guitarists to make slight alterations to the pieces they play, to suit
   their own physical characteristics and skills, as well as 'improving'
   the music in a subjective sense.  Segovia in particular
   took considerable liberties with the urtext versions - but as you know
   there are countless other examples.

   Is it reasonable then to insist that the work as written should be
   frozen down to the last detail?  I try not to take liberties, but
   sometimes find it is hard to avoid doing so and dare I say the
   resulting performance can benefit from slight adjustments to suit the
   musician.

   I'll now hide under my computer desk while the brickbats start to fly
   ;)

   Bill
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   To: BAROQUE-LUTE 
   Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 9:05
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
   the Musette...
   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
   passage make my stretch longer?
   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
   info on that?
   Rob MacKillop
   www.robmackillop.net
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele

[Rob MacKillop]

Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for right-hand 
string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to look at my right 
hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing in confidence...until I 
read through Weiss' L'Infidele.

It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a great joy 
to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I read the Courante 
slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day be able to play it up 
tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes, is sublimely beautiful. The 
minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was beginning to think this is a suite I 
can get my teeth into. Then I hit the Musette...

Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and 
(presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is 153mm, 
and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is very hard. I can 
manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not seem excessive, and is 
pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving 13c bridges, in other words an 
average size. Will practise of this passage make my stretch longer? 

Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation, maybe) to 
recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an octave at the 6th 
course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any info on that?

Rob MacKillop


www.robmackillop.net 



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