[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close): 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position: 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed; while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable little finger position: 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on the soundboard, the finger not fixed. However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 2 have been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one? The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could indicate that it WAS the same player. If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player adapting to string type or tension or because of hand size, or perhaps thumb out (1 3), not so far out (2 4); however, the fixed finger (3 4), moveable finger (12) difference, can't be given such an explanation, and must surely imply two different playing techniques. The problem is that the little finger swivel, or glide techniques do not correspond to the close to the bridge less close to the bridge position. It would have been easier to fathom had there been a coincidence between the two. Then we would clearly have two globally different techniques. Anthony Le 16 dec. 07 =E0 21:55, Robert Barto a ecrit : Anthony, Thank you very much for these pictures. What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the bridge and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. So what does this tell us? Robert -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they saw, even though there was nothing there. Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one way or another, I see nothing of the clarity in the points you mention. In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the bridge, not particularized to just one small area. The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the soundboard from repairs and bridge adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about what is going on there. It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me wrong. But I think we are going too far in assumptions. For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general standpoint: Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- that's clear in a general way by the pictorial evidence, and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms of the kind of sound one can produce. However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, the pinky near the bridge placement simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit away from the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for me: 1-2 cm). And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or otherwise stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have been owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them constantly, or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or beautiful or informative just because it is old. I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top players disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime of performances and travel across Europe. I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements, based solely on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas on the soundboard) is just too conjectural. Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant! Cheers, Theo From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100 To: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close): 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position: 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed; while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable little finger position: 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on the soundboard, the finger not fixed. However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 2 have been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one? The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could indicate that it WAS the same player. If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player adapting to string
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Oups, sorry Rob, it just came back to my mind, when Theo, said you couldn't trust the marks on a lute in a museum. I have sort of been trained to store apparently completely unrelated data in my mind for future association, at a later date. Theo's message just suddenly triggered this memory. I spotted yourself with the Buchenberg when I was searching for the Van Raalte Brownsea Island lutes. I saw that some of them had ended up in Edinburgh. Initially, I thought the Buchenberg was one of them and wrote to Professor Arnold Myers, Director of the museum, who told me this wasn't in fact the case. However, I don't think anyone expects you to get a good sound out of such a lute, unless you can control the stringing, etc. We listen just to have an idea of how they sound, not how you play. I would say that most of the recordings done on lutes in museums are interesting, but not ideal. I am thinking of the Hoppy recordings on the 1644 Railich (Denis Gaultier), and his recording for Reflexe of Weiss on the Widhalm. Also one of Anthony Bailes' recordings of late German Baroque on reflexe. I imagine they could control the stringing, and yet the sound is still problematic in the mid. However, Mimmo Peruffo told me the Frei pictured on the recent message was wonderful, but perhaps he completely restrung it. There are a few music museums where the instruments are kept in good playing condition such as Finchcocks (harpsichords and forte pianos) I know that there are also demonstrations, or rather were demonstrations at the Musée de la musique of some of the lutes. I attended a concert of gambists, there (Christophe Coin), where they played on original instruments, and when at the end they picked up their own gambas, it was a relief. Yet hearing the original instruments was still interesting. The Rauwolf, obviously does not have quite the same heavyish sound as the Buchenberg, having been completely restored, but there is some element in common, which must be the age of the wood, I imagine. On the English lute society pages,they mention a sound approaching that of the oboe. Sorry you don't remember anything about the finger marks, and in fact that you would rather forget, as I imagined it would be a great moment to get your hands on an such old lute, and guitars. I am obviously too romantic. i didn't think of the cold and perhaps the dust. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:59, Rob a écrit : Oh dear, I hoped no-one would spot that on the net! Thanks Anthony! Oh well... The piece is the most boring ever - I've no idea why I thought it suitable! The university asked me to record a CD of a small selection of their instruments. No repairs were made to the instruments, they were just strung up, and I only got a couple of hours to get used to the instruments. The sound recording was also very poor. The string spacing on the Buchenberg was very comfortable, but the strings were more or less just lying on the frets. I couldn't play the first course without getting that zing. Horrible. Don't buy the CD! It was about ten years ago, when I had hair! I've no idea about little-finger marks on the soundboard. I just remember being cold and getting a horrible sound. Never thought I'd see that again! Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40 To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Theo and Rob A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob? There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also Dowland on the Buchenberg. Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century Rob McKillop playing * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ] Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg Web page details at http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr The indications are that The sound-board is stained with finger grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position most often used. Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your hand, as close as possible to that original position? Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments, the age of the wood no doubt. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit : Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit : Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob, we can all see that (well not the dud cheque), We are aware that you are posing for the camera, holding the new arrival, vaguely in a somewhat more relaxed Mouton posture; but I suppose that Charles was also posing for the painter. Although, you might have played with your lute for 40 mins and Charles played his for 40 years, that was not really the point; both paintings and photos of posing musicians would not be the ideal proof of a playing position, unless they were actually playing, which is not the case for either of you. Your finger is a little forward, in relation to Charles', but I only really added your photo, because I am hoping every one will agree with me that Mouton's lute is indeed a Maler, or even a Desmoulins baroqued Maler. No I know that can't be proved either way. I am not really taking all that much more seriously than we can see you are. However, the finger marks on the unrestored lutes are highly significant evidence, showing that if you do indeed want to play with the little finger nearer the bridge, then you are following the pattern of at least four other historic lute players, particularly, as you are using gut strings, as obviouly they had no choice but to do (although theirs might have been loaded). Marks on the lute belly, are much more significant than paintings, or indeed photos, unless the player is performing during the photo. I would make some duff pun about Tcheque (as they call it in France) Malers and dudd cheques, but fortunately for all, none come to mind, at this time in the evening. We will all here,be looking forward to hearing you play de Visee in Paris, perhaps on this lute, and possibly with an even better little finger position (I will be the bearded one in the front row, with a big grin, perhaps invisble under my beard). Although, I would be quite happy if I could play my lute as you do after holding it for only few minutes. Regards Anthony PS Just the knowledge that yet another Frei exists (perhaps all of you already knew that, but I didn't), pleases me; and the French Maler was only disovered very recently too. Wolfgang Emmerich analysed a fairly recently discovered Railich in Prague, I think, and S. Lippi also discovered an analysed a Railich in Italy. Perhaps, more remain to be discovered. However, for me personally, the idea that one can still make discoveries about finger marks on lute bellies, which haven't been studied before, as MP has done, is, if anything, even more interesting, pushing at the barriers of our knowledge of historic techniques. I haven't yet obtained the new lute record by Anthony Bailes on two- headed lute, but i understand that is also the result of pioneering musical analysis, that has allowed him to open up a new-old musical repertoire. I have to admit in taking some joy at the idea of all that. As I think of this a gleeful smile appears on my face, too. Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit : Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
