[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
Hello Arto and all You out there, I would say you already have one of a topmaker! If it is an early instrument by Lars you could ask him to upgrade it. Also consider the distance to your lutemaker. Things happen with our instruments and when it does it's nice when the luthier is not too far away. All the best Roland Hogman 2011/5/25, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi: Dear baroque lutenists, as some of you perhaps have noticed, I've become heavily addicted to the 11 course French baroque lute after some decades of of playing the lutes in the vieil accord, in the so called renaissance tuning. And I actually now have a quite nice 11-courser by Lars Jönsson (Joensson, Jonsson), see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/EkatKuvat.html And my possible(?) progress with that instrument in one and half year can be checked in my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/ But my eagerness to that strange and most wonderful instrument has become so irresistible that I would like to order an instrument of highest quality. So, who do you think is today the best maker of 11-course baroque lutes? And a waiting list of too many years excludes even the best of bests... Any recommendations? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Skickat från min mobila enhet /Roland
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
Dear David, I think 'orchestral' pitch can be very misleading in relation to the pitching of lutes in mid/late 17th century France: there is really very little evidence for the use of lutes with other instruments in France throughout this period and thus no need to assume any conformity. Incidentally, 68 +/- 2cm is a range of 66 to 70cm. MH --- On Tue, 31/5/11, David R d_lu...@comcast.net wrote: From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 18:22 On May 31, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: The question was: what size of lute would a French lutenist around 1670 have generally expected? The question was not, is it possible to play the music on a significantly larger lute? (clearly, as I wrote in Lute News 94 - it is); or even, what size of lute would one want to use now if one wished for a 'darker' (lower pitched) sound and were not interested in the size the Old Ones generally expected? Dear Martyn, Yes, I did understand the question. I'm not arguing against the evidence you present (goodness knows, I don't know enough to do that). But then. okay, given a common string length of around 68-70 cm, doesn't that also assume a common pitch tuning of, say, A=415? I think that's what I find difficult to accept, in view of the wide variety of pitches other instruments, including organs and harpsichords, were tuned to. Why else, for example, would flutes have come with as many as four or five different-length middle joints, if not to accomodate the wide pitch variety to be found on the general musical scene? Obviously, lutes can't accomodate any type of corps de rechange, the way flutes can, but wouldn't lutenists have desired that pitch variety too?; and the only way to get that would have been to play lutes of many different sizes. I dunno...just a thought. DR -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
Dear Arto The question might be what the characteristics are that you are looking for in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might determine the best makers for you to consider. Model and bass string type: The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna Frei) if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, Burkholzer etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly on Burwell, possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhétorique de Dieux manuscript. Sustain and clarity: Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8. Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French musicians that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes. The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008) In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach that French ideal of sustain and clarity? I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei (69 to 71), such as that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, while maintaining a good balance between registers. A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain. I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if it might not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin Haycock's for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be determined by the qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute. It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but presumably a lute by Paul Thomson might near this. The best maker for your chosen model: You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string length and string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly renowned for certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although they may be quite open to making other lute models. Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen by those proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi-ribbed Burkholzer or Greiss lutes (Satoh etc). String tweaking: Indeed, as I am sure you are aware, choice of stringing is almost as important as choice of lute, and I have spent the last two years trying to maximise my lute's singing quality by small shifts in the stringing. Please do not consider that there is only one way to go, it is more a question of finding the right pitch, string type, and tension at which a particular lute really begins to sing. My 69.5cm lute seems to work better at 392 than previously used 415 or 407; and Aquila low impedance Venice strings on basses (loaded), most octaves, and Meanes does maximise sustain (through sympathetic resonances and low impedance to the soundboard) but while maintaining good clarity. Nevertheless, I recently raised the tension on bass courses (while keeping a higher relative tension on the octaves) which further increased sustain, thus further improving this singing quality. I would not claim this is the only way to string a lute, just that a good lute can become an excellent one with the choice of the right stringing, both for the lute and for
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
Dear Anthony, Why should an instrument with a longer string length work 'better' with gut? Any advantage gained by the strings being longer is precisely offset by having to tune the whole instrument lower. If we follow the general rule that the stress on the highest string is the same whatever lute you are using (ie near the breaking stress) then the stress on the basses of the large and the smaller lute will be exactly the same and the lutes will exhibit the same degree of dullness/brightness in the bass. Of course, if one ignores the early sources and tunes a small lute at the same nominal pitch as a large lute (you suggest A415(?)) then naturally the small lute will sound duller. Also see my correspondance with Bailes in recent issues of Lute News on the sizes of French lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments) indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around 1670, he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music'. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser? To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04 Dear Arto The question might be what the characteristics are that you are looking for in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might determine the best makers for you to consider. Model and bass string type: The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna Frei) if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, Burkholzer etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly on Burwell, possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de Dieux manuscript. Sustain and clarity: Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8. Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French musicians that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes. The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008) In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach that French ideal of sustain and clarity? I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei (69 to 71), such as that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, while maintaining a good balance between registers. A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain. I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with loaded
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
On May 31, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Also see my correspondance with Bailes in recent issues of Lute News on the sizes of French lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments) indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around 1670, he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music'. The iconography shows some pretty big lutes! Is there really no evidence at all that the French played lutes of sizes other than +/- 68 cm? And if so, why that particular size? We know they played solo and ensemble music on theorbos of all sizes and stringings. Wouldn't they have been going for the darker, more sustained sound of a larger lute? DavidR To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
Dear David, The question was: what size of lute would a French lutenist around 1670 have generally expected? The question was not, is it possible to play the music on a significantly larger lute? (clearly, as I wrote in Lute News 94 - it is); or even, what size of lute would one want to use now if one wished for a 'darker' (lower pitched) sound and were not interested in the size the Old Ones generally expected? My extended letter in Lute News contains a summary of the sources of information which I mentioned below. The size range, 68 +/- 2 cm, emerges from this historical evidence. Of course, the 11 course continued to be played well into the 18th century, but not so much in France, and larger instruments certainly seem to have been widely used in this period. But not exclusively: eg Von Radolt's instructions for various sizes of 11 course lutes lute ranging from approx 54cm string length (his very small lute) through a middle lute around 61 cm to his proper common lute at 72cm (See FOMRHI Comm 737). MH --- On Tue, 31/5/11, David R d_lu...@comcast.net wrote: From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 16:51 On May 31, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Also see my correspondance with Bailes in recent issues of Lute News on the sizes of French lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments) indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around 1670, he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music'. The iconography shows some pretty big lutes! Is there really no evidence at all that the French played lutes of sizes other than +/- 68 cm? And if so, why that particular size? We know they played solo and ensemble music on theorbos of all sizes and stringings. Wouldn't they have been going for the darker, more sustained sound of a larger lute? DavidR To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
the Talbot MS, extant instruments) indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around 1670, he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music'. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser? To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04 Dear Arto The question might be what the characteristics are that you are looking for in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might determine the best makers for you to consider. Model and bass string type: The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna Frei) if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, Burkholzer etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly on Burwell, possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de Dieux manuscript. Sustain and clarity: Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8. Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French musicians that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes. The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008) In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach that French ideal of sustain and clarity? I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei (69 to 71), such as that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, while maintaining a good balance between registers. A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain. I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if it might not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin Haycock's for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be determined by the qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute. It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but presumably a lute by Paul Thomson might near this. The best maker for your chosen model: You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string length and string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly renowned for certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although they may be quite open to making other lute models. Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen by those proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
(iconography, early measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments) indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around 1670, he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music'. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser? To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04 Dear Arto The question might be what the characteristics are that you are looking for in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might determine the best makers for you to consider. Model and bass string type: The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna Frei) if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, Burkholzer etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly on Burwell, possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de Dieux manuscript. Sustain and clarity: Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8. Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French musicians that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes. The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008) In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach that French ideal of sustain and clarity? I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei (69 to 71), such as that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, while maintaining a good balance between registers. A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain. I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if it might not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin Haycock's for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be determined by the qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute. It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but presumably a lute by Paul Thomson might near this. The best maker for your chosen model: You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string length and string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly renowned for certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although they may be quite open to making other lute models. Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen by those proning
