Re: Loss and Rebirth
Hi Robin, People who work the land are great people no matter where in the world they live! Greetings, Peter. - Original Message - From: Robin Duchesneau [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:46 AM Subject: Re: Loss and Rebirth Hi, Being a Canadian, we look at American's with our own cultural bias. While we like to think that we are different then you (better, wiser, and nicer), we are more alike then not. Most Canadians will not admit this, but I have no problem seeing our similarities. Goodness is everywhere in the common folks.
Re: RoundUp
In a message dated 10/24/02 4:45:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am having a running argument with some of the local conventional Sonoma County grape growers about RoundUp. They claim that it binds to the soil almost immediatly and has little to now negative effect on soil biology. Does anyone have any CONCRETE information on RoundUp and its effect on soil biology? Most wineries posses a microscope. A five minute peek through the objective will clarify the biological aspect question. I have witnessed residual effects of round up as fall die off of grasses under the canopy with no application or other environmental reason except a spring application of round up. It may not kill 100% of the biologicals in the soil food web, but it kills at least 80%, leaving only bacterium and annihilating the protozoa and fungi, grapevines want fungal soil. This leads to the destruction of terroir. Might as well drink Welch's grape juice... sstorch
Re: RoundUp/Cover crop
Hi Gil, This is very interesting stuff ! Would you agree that you need the mulch of the cover crop to feed the grapes, or is it possible to have an permanent cover crop to have the same effect ? ( as the one you are describing) Have you ever seen or heard some one having grassing animals in the vine-yard, like sheep, I understand that this is a common practice in Northern Spain, only after harvest/vintner. Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 06:19 AM Subject: Re: RoundUp/Cover crop By using a disk seeder and not a tine seeder. The disk will get through the chopped green manure and get down to the soil. Wind and traffic will soon cover it up, but the oats or other grain should soon push through. Disk seeders were used on new ground, because of roots etc. Just a matter of getting an old one and cutting it down to suit, probably making it three point linkage mounted. You may need to play with the angle of approach for the disk as this tends to have to do with the nature of the trash. I suggest that it is better to sow as soon after slashing as possible. I have designed a modified disk based air seader, with a larger than normal disk. Any one want an investment? This is intended for this sort of application and also direct seeding revegetation. Gil RiverValley wrote: Gil, How do you sow the oats through the previuos cover crop? thanks, Daniel - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp/Cover crop Hi! Per Garp/NH Over here we have winter rain, which is our main growing season, followed by spring when most thing finish for harvest, with grapes coming in around February. We start with a legume peas/ fava beans, hairy vetch etc, planted on the first rains. A soon as it flowers, but before it sets seed, it is slashed and oats or other grain sowed through it. Again, as soon as it flowers and is still at the milky stage, slash it and just let it lay on top and there is your summer mulch. Some run the slasher through a couple of times to cut it shorter. This should supply all the N and C required. I like to spray the freshly slashed material with the compost Preps. Gil COYOTEHILLFARM wrote: Hi All What type of cover crop would you recommend as a companion planting for grapes ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp Hi! Peter, If the cover crop is slowing vine growth, it suggests that there is a Nitrogen shortage. The cut cover crop and any mulch is mostly carbon and needs a specific proportion of nitrogen to break it down. It is important to start with a legume with the right inoculant to help set nitrogen from the air, into the soil, in a form the plant can use. The break down of carbon, also uses large amounts of nitrogen, which may be what has happened. When you get a nitrogen credit in the soil, it is OK to have a non nitrogen fixing cover crop. The use of the Preps will help the whole process. I also use the combined compost Preps, sprayed onto the freshly slashed cover crop, which seems to help it break down. If you have the time and a good Whipper Snipper, using the line, not blade, you can make a little guard on a long handle, which you can put against the butt of the vine and slash right to the butt, at ground level. I do not see properly managed cover crops as competing. They will keep out weeds and should produce all the N and C your crop requires. While they will use some water, if slashed fairly often, they also reduce water loss from bare soil and the effect of heat on the root run. In Oz with our mainly shallow soils, it is important to use all of it we can. A sun dried inch or two is wasted country and it also kills feeder roots. Gil J Peter Young wrote: Gil, We had a marvelous green manure crop this spring which, when we couldn't get control of it in the vine row, completely shut down vine growth in early summer. It is a young vineyard and apparently very sensitive to competition. Once the green manure crop finally fell away natually, the more noxious north coast weeds began to appear because of our irrigation. In some areas we did sow a clover vine row cover crop, but it was just a competitive. It's sad that next door, my conventional farming neighbor who uses a pre-emergent over the winter and then regularly applied RoundUp through teh growing season had much better growth and
Re: Impact BD Practices
I would as well like a copy of this. Please send to : Jane Parker 104 Hodges Lane Takoma Park, MD 20912 I will send you postage . My computer has been acting up and I am not able to download very much materrial at a time. Thank you.
Sheep
I have a friend here in Sonoma County that is running sheep in his vineyard year round with great success. They are pygmy sheep and they wear a kind of harness that keeps them from getting up into the leaves. Apparently if they can get at the end of a cane that has drooped down, they will yank the cane down all the way to the trunk. Peter
Re: wider use of bd remedies
Old Description: MIDI audio
Re: Using the preps
In a message dated 10/27/02 3:02:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could problems develop from using some of the preps but not all. like just using 500, 501 and 508. Yes, you can almost guaranttee it. These are energy based and the full spectrum should be used so energies are balanced...sstorch
Re: Impact BD Practices
Hi Manfred: I am also interested in receiving a copy of this research, for 2 reasons. I grew up in the area studied and also for my study with eco ag. If postage required please let me know. Thanks LL Liz on 29/10/02 11:36 AM, manfred palmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Nelson: Last year, 2 local professors/team ...University of Windsorcompleted a 2-year research paper on conventional, organic, and biodynamic farming practitioners in ontario, canada. They surveyed all the groups with questionaires including personal convictions, level of integrity re land stewardship,etc. Also, familial and financial state of being., and i believe there were some social conclusions/ impacts/trends noted. While this was not exclusively a bd subject, there were some distinct differences which were no surprise to most of us who read the finished paper. A noteworthy social impact is always found in consumers who participate in a csa ...community supported agriculture... venture: sincere appreciation for the hand-blessed produce and process which they share in. Appreciation is generative, and this surely has a ripple impact in their compound worlds. If the document (fairly academic) sounds interesting for you, i could obtain a copy and forward to you if you can wait a while. ? ...manfred palmer - Original Message - From: Nelson Jacomel Junior [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 9:38 AM Subject: Impact BD Practices dears: after some months away from the list (the server was out of order) I feel very happy to read our mesages again. Now, I'm to start a doctorate study at local university regarding bd agriculture, environment and changes of consumption habits. I would like to ask if we have any information on research done in social changes related to the use of biodynamic agriculture. I mean, we have conversations on the impact of bd practices in our produces but do we have studies on the impact over the consumption atitude of practicioners? Or on citizens? I know its a tough subject despite I'm sure there is a change. Have any one reported that or researched that? Tks for any comment. Nelson Jacomel Junior agronomist, member at South Brasil Biodynamic Agriculture Association from Florianopolis, SC, Brasil. - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
Re: RoundUp/Cover crop
Hi Gil Garp/NH Noticed this past winter that the uni of Sydney runs sheep in their vineyard through the winter. Also Garp, there was something earlier this year on this link, that referred to buckwheat as a cover crop in vineyards. Used because it establishes and flowers quickly. Gil, when you say asap, is that to allow for the heat to leave the slashed material? LL Liz on 29/10/02 11:10 PM, COYOTEHILLFARM at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gil, This is very interesting stuff ! Would you agree that you need the mulch of the cover crop to feed the grapes, or is it possible to have an permanent cover crop to have the same effect ? ( as the one you are describing) Have you ever seen or heard some one having grassing animals in the vine-yard, like sheep, I understand that this is a common practice in Northern Spain, only after harvest/vintner. Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 06:19 AM Subject: Re: RoundUp/Cover crop By using a disk seeder and not a tine seeder. The disk will get through the chopped green manure and get down to the soil. Wind and traffic will soon cover it up, but the oats or other grain should soon push through. Disk seeders were used on new ground, because of roots etc. Just a matter of getting an old one and cutting it down to suit, probably making it three point linkage mounted. You may need to play with the angle of approach for the disk as this tends to have to do with the nature of the trash. I suggest that it is better to sow as soon after slashing as possible. I have designed a modified disk based air seader, with a larger than normal disk. Any one want an investment? This is intended for this sort of application and also direct seeding revegetation. Gil RiverValley wrote: Gil, How do you sow the oats through the previuos cover crop? thanks, Daniel - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp/Cover crop Hi! Per Garp/NH Over here we have winter rain, which is our main growing season, followed by spring when most thing finish for harvest, with grapes coming in around February. We start with a legume peas/ fava beans, hairy vetch etc, planted on the first rains. A soon as it flowers, but before it sets seed, it is slashed and oats or other grain sowed through it. Again, as soon as it flowers and is still at the milky stage, slash it and just let it lay on top and there is your summer mulch. Some run the slasher through a couple of times to cut it shorter. This should supply all the N and C required. I like to spray the freshly slashed material with the compost Preps. Gil COYOTEHILLFARM wrote: Hi All What type of cover crop would you recommend as a companion planting for grapes ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp Hi! Peter, If the cover crop is slowing vine growth, it suggests that there is a Nitrogen shortage. The cut cover crop and any mulch is mostly carbon and needs a specific proportion of nitrogen to break it down. It is important to start with a legume with the right inoculant to help set nitrogen from the air, into the soil, in a form the plant can use. The break down of carbon, also uses large amounts of nitrogen, which may be what has happened. When you get a nitrogen credit in the soil, it is OK to have a non nitrogen fixing cover crop. The use of the Preps will help the whole process. I also use the combined compost Preps, sprayed onto the freshly slashed cover crop, which seems to help it break down. If you have the time and a good Whipper Snipper, using the line, not blade, you can make a little guard on a long handle, which you can put against the butt of the vine and slash right to the butt, at ground level. I do not see properly managed cover crops as competing. They will keep out weeds and should produce all the N and C your crop requires. While they will use some water, if slashed fairly often, they also reduce water loss from bare soil and the effect of heat on the root run. In Oz with our mainly shallow soils, it is important to use all of it we can. A sun dried inch or two is wasted country and it also kills feeder roots. Gil J Peter Young wrote: Gil, We had a marvelous green manure crop this spring which, when we couldn't get control of it in the vine row, completely shut down vine growth in early summer. It is a young vineyard and apparently very sensitive to competition. Once the green manure crop finally fell away natually, the more noxious north coast weeds began to appear because of our irrigation. In some areas we did sow a clover
Re: Using the preps
In a message dated 10/27/02 3:02:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could problems develop from using some of the preps but not all. like just using 500, 501 and 508. Yes, you can almost guaranttee it. These are energy based and the full spectrum should be used so energies are balanced...sstorch Steve - It's adequate, isn't it, to get the compost preps out with BC or prepped compost? -Allan
Re: Using the preps
In a message dated 10/29/02 2:18:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Steve - It's adequate, isn't it, to get the compost preps out with BC or prepped compost? -Allan Yes, of course. I think it is tricky to use 502-507 without them having gone through the compost [tea, bc or a pile}...sstorch
Re: Sheep
Peter - more about this harness, if you get a chance! and also what kind of sheep are they. Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 09:57 AM Subject: Re: Sheep I have a friend here in Sonoma County that is running sheep in his vineyard year round with great success. They are pygmy sheep and they wear a kind of harness that keeps them from getting up into the leaves. Apparently if they can get at the end of a cane that has drooped down, they will yank the cane down all the way to the trunk. Peter Peter - more about this harness, if you get a chance! Thanks -Allan
Re: wider use of bd remedies
Hi! James, I think Monsanto are hacking into you posts. Could you repost, please? Gil James Hedley wrote: Dear Lloyd, A very pertinent point that you bring up in your post about how we could get our message out about Biodynamics. Biodynamics is another tool amongst many which we have available to solve some of the major problems which we have created. Where the problem arises about getting the message across is that there are so many different competing solutions. The solutions to t
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Re: Loss and Rebirth
- Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Loss and Rebirth Dear Hugh Sadly for all of us I think your whole post is right on the bulls eye! Why then is it so hard for people of influence to see this? I know , money and power, but my god, how much money and power will it take to satisfy these lunatics!! Its for sure the men who start this war will not be in the frontline nor will any of their family. Our brown nosed little Aussie prime minister is at least as dedicated to being a part of it as Bush and Blair! Anyway thanks for an excellent post, it might be a wake up call to someone! Lloyd Charles -just some snippetts to remind us again- and of course mostly it had to do with oil and money at the expense of such things as human rights, cultural improvement and democracy. Make no mistake. The US wanted him (Saddam) neither for his brains nor his beauty. The US wanted him for the same reasons the CIA and British Intelligence put him in power originally--to divide and manipulate the region for the benefit of money and oil interests A dramatic attack by a foreign power on America and/or its citizens has long been the key ploy in getting Americans to fight a war. I would guess the US WILL be in a war with Iraq, concievably by Christmas 2002. And if the US needs to go into Iran after occupying Iraq, it will do that too. I would say the invasion of Iraq scenario became inevitable with the election of a president that raised $38 million the first month of his candidacy. No effort has been spared in making war with Iraq so far, and no effort will be spared after this November 5th's election. and this whole chain of events has far too much momentum to be halted. But no matter what, I think we will see a huge war and loss of life. It's too early to predict how huge. The big question in my mind is when will we reach a point where enough people have their eyes open that they no longer put up with being manipulated, their information watered down, their opinions distorted, their government policies bent to favor the biggest financial and industrial interests on earth?
Re: Loss and Rebirth
Hugh, Thanks for the history lesson and lack of hysterics. Just wanted you to know your words reached another person to whom it matters, greatly. Even my 77 year old, mainstream, republican party, mother is beginning to wonder why things "aren't quite right". Stone by stone a mountain of change is occurring. John Buckley Dear Robin,There's more to it than you might think. People who think politics hasnothing to do with agriculture and environment--read on. This is long, butalso informative. Everything that follows is about people, agriculture andthe environment.First, I agree that protest against government policies is healthy.Sometimes it changes things and usually the changes are healthy. Butprotest must be allowed to be healthy. To gage the health of US politics?We will have to see just how much longer Americans are allowed to protestwithout widespread suppression. (Mostly political suppression has beenisolated in the US, though women and blacks have been widely marginalizedand excluded in the past.) I wouldn't want to make any assumptions though.It is noteworthy that Congress has given President Bush more power tosuppress dissent than ever before in American history, though it has beencustomary for Americans to give up their rights during wars.Bush seems to be very popular right now, and not without reason. I don'tthink many of his detractors appreciate how tight a spot he is in or howwell he has done in it so far. He has my admiration in many ways.Of course, in my opinion, he is all the things you say, a 'petroleumtrigger happy military head of state'--and more. Specifically he isanti-environment, and even worse from the viewpoint of most ecologicalfarmers he just made a huge giveaway to conventional cash grain farmers(some of the most destructive farmers) and thus the industries that processtheir grain. He had to do that to avoid a rash of farm bankruptcies and abanking debacle, but also no doubt it was a blatant attempt to buy votes.We'll have to see if it works. He doesn't need but one seat gain in thesenate to have it go his way.Personally I think it is real priority for all the US citizens on this listto vote. Now more than ever.Having said that, let me add another dimension. There is good reason thatBush is both an anti-environmentalist and a 'petroleum trigger happymilitary head of state'. It is no accident.Don't we have to ask why Bush Senior left Saddam in power after DesertStorm? And why is Bush's son so intent on removing him now? One thing isfor sure. The Bushes know a lot more about why Saddam ascended to power andstayed there so long and now MUST go than they would ever publicly admit.We are left to speculate. If we are going to do that, let's first see whatwe KNOW about the dynamics of US policy in the region.After WW II when the CIA was set up, it acted in tandem with the USDepartment of State, and Allan Dulles ran the CIA while his brother, JohnFoster Dulles, ran State. Policies and decisions were born out of back roomdeals that may never come to light, but commonly the CIA worked to putpeople in power who could be swayed or corrupted to our advantage. I sayour advantage. But it was not the advantage of America or its people, itwas to the advantage of banks and corporations who influenced the electionof our politicians and set the general policies of our government(s).In the middle east the US pursued a course of protecting Israel whileconsuming the oil of many of Israel's near neighbors. This in large partmeant setting up "strongmen" that the US could control. The roots of thispolicy went back to pre- WW I days when the Ottoman Empire controlledArabia and most of the Muslim region up to the borders of the Austrian andRussian Empires. (It was an age of military empires. The French had rathera wannabe empire as they still had colonies. The Spanish had lost theirEmpire by running out of gold and getting into a war with the US. TheBritish had the greatest empire on Earth. The US had made a few movestoward empire, siezing Puerto Rico, Hawaii, the Philippines and a few otherminor possessions, the most notable being the Panama Canal Zone. But itwasn't enlarging its territory so much, preferring to grow in economicinfluence instead.) In 1914 when the Austria-Hungary's Kaiser attackedFrance the British pursuaded the Czar of Russia to attack the Austrians(buying the French time with the hope that America would get drawn into thewar) by promising the Czar seaports, or at least free access, to theMediterranean. This was supposed to happen at the expense of the Austriansand the Ottoman Empire. Russia had always wanted a European seaport thatwas open year round, so the Czar went for it, saving France's bacon at whatultimately proved to be the cost of his life and his Monarchy. Meanwhilethe British succeeded in breaking up the Ottoman Empire--but they did notfacilitate Russia getting a Mediterranean
