Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
I do not understand the concern about compost tea. A survey released this week in Oz has found that something like 40% of women and 65% of men do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I consider that any risk from foliar sprays of compost tea pales into insignificance.. Gil D S Chamberlain wrote: Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening? Perceptions are everything, if it can be traced that someone got ill from compost tea then there are legions of highly paid people who will push the perception, right or wrong, that all compost tea is bad. No amount of huffing and puffing will change the perception once instigated, rumour and innuendo is the way that chemical companies fight and there's plenty of suckers out there willing to listen to them. Ideas anyone? David C - Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2002 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Dear Frank, You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to nothing. Everyone has it. Right? The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree to that? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere so far as I know, and I've been watching. Which should prohibit compost teas from feedlot manures, but why prohibit any others? If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. coli is meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 is. Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis Avery, the infamous scientific prostitute. And please don't endorse his arguments by wishy-washy agreement that we have to beware of coliforms in compost tea. We all have coliforms. I don't think there are any exceptions. Compost teas may have coliforms. Sure. Will Brinton is doubtless right. Big deal. Coliforms are ubiquitous. Scare tactics? Why succumb to them? Please, let's everyone get their brains on. As you can tell, my Scotch blood rises and my gorge swells in anticipation of a truly non-scientific debate (battle) in which significance pales into nothingness and mass is the persuading factor. I feel like I'm putting on my breastplate and bucklers and flexing my arms, shoulders, torso and legs, preparing to confront the unscientific bastards promoting this agenda. I think they know better, the SBs. Thank God I can laugh. Best, Hugh Lovel Dear Hugh, The fact that we all carry benign strains of E. coli in our guts, and are colonized therewith shortly after birth, does not mean that there are not virulent strains of E. coli from animal sources that we need to be concerned about. The E. coli 0157:H7 issue is covered in a number of places; one recent paper that is interesting is: http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf The infectious dose is indicative of the virulence of pathogenic bacteria, and E. coli O157:H7 has an extremely low infectious dose. In one outbreak the contamination level of E. coli O157:H7 in uncooked hamburger meat was less than 700 cells/patty and some victims ingested very little of the (improperly) cooked meat (Griffin, 1998). The Walkerton water outbreak here in Canada underscored the manure problem associated with 0157:H7: http://www.med.uwo.ca/ecosystemhealth/education/casestudies/walkertonmed.ht m Now, Hugh, I am willing to accept that BD folks as a group are at low risk of having and spreading 0157 around. But, the NOSB has to deal with a larger universe of people than that, with composts coming from feedlot animals, and with an influx of newbies who may or may not know their excrement from their waxy shoe protectant, if you catch my reference... Compost tea is new. By that I mean compost tea as Elaine defines it, aerobically amplified and nutrient added. Whatever we should say about the Bess study, she showed that you can grow E. coli in a compost tea environment. For the most part E. coli is simply an indicator for the fate of other pathogens, chosen for its ease of monitoring, but in its 0157 form (and a few others) it is a potent pathogen in its own right, and at very low infective doses. The majority of 0157 outbreaks have been meat related, but several have also occured in salad materials, fruit juices, and sprouts. So, concern that 0157 might pass into compost tea through compost and into the food supply through application of tea and retention on produce surfaces is not absurd. It is reasonable, and a small amount of precautionary activity can ensure that we develop
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
D S Chamberlain wrote: Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening? Perceptions are everything, if it can be traced that someone got ill from compost tea then there are legions of highly paid people who will push the perception, right or wrong, that all compost tea is bad. This is a job for an Bio-Dynamic farmer who is also a scientist. Can anyone understand journal articles written by researchers on E. coli? Can someone start from the beginning with a skyhook--i.e., some background, then gather all the relevant scientific articles on E. coli 0 157 H:7 and on E. coli in general and pull them together to form a rebuttal to Will Brinton, et al., and publish in a prestigous journal with a bunch of references. Then, doggone it, write a book for laypeople like Our Stolen Future which was the first book I read on endocrine disruption from dioxin, a substance never mentioned on the label of herbicides which contain 2,4-D. Then make a video. The author of Our Stolen Future was a woman who got her Ph.D. in later life and who worked for the World Wildlife Fund. She had amassed all the journal articles and put 2 and 2 together and called together all the scientists from different fields to discuss the implications. After many meetings (I have papers from those meetings.), she wrote the book for laypeople. There are hundreds of scientific articles on endocrine disruption, but the EPA still allows dioxin-containing herbicides on the market because of the same reason that the National Organic Standards are based on "NPK organic" and leave out 24-hr Compost Tea as Elaine's group of researchers are developing it and Bio-Dynamic Agriculture. No matter how impenetrable the political situation is, we have the right and responsibility to put our information out there. No amount of huffing and puffing will change the perception once instigated, rumour and innuendo is the way that chemical companies fight and there's plenty of suckers out there willing to listen to them. When I wanted to use Pfeiffer Field Spray on our road and it wasn't registered in Idaho, that gave Randy his opportunity to scream me down when I mentioned the word "Bio-Dynamics" by saying "It contains nematodes." He didn't know whether Pfeiffer Field Spray contained root nematodes or not, but he's acted like he did. He just knew that it hadn't been tested by the state lab. What he said was irrelevant, but he made such a fuss that I never did even get a chance to speak. I think some of those present understood what I was talking about. Brad, our Weed Supervisor later told Randy that he was a jackass and Randy apologized to me at Bonner Cty Weed Meeting in his oblique way. Maybe there's hope. We have to start somewhere to interface with these people who don't have a clue about the things that are most important to us. I heard one of the late night TV talk show hosts make a derogatory joke about something by comparing it to dowsing. It's just lack of understanding. I don't know how long it's going to take, but we have to keep working. I think the Korrows' idea about doing a video is good. I have an excellent video on the patenting of life called "Not for Sale" from Moving Images Video Project, 2408 E. Valley Street, Seattle, WA 98112 206 323-9461, www.movingimages.org>. Their distributor is Bulldog Films, I think. You could do worse than getting in with them. You want professional video people to make the film. There is a filmmaker here who made a video about Sandpoint which I am going to see for the first time on Sunday. You first need to decide what information you want to get across to people about Bio-Dynamics, then you need to find a filmmaker to work with to make it really good. "Not for Sale" has shots from all over the world, really exciting music and is very well put together and edited. I bet this group could collaborate over the net and come up with something that would set the record straight. Merla - Original Message - From: "Hugh Lovel" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2002 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps > Dear Frank, > > You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to > nothing. Everyone has it. Right? > > The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree > tothat? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL > kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere > so far as I know, and I've been watching.Which should prohibit compost teas > from feedlot manures, but why prohibitany others? > > If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. > coliis meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. > > Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 > is. > > Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis
VIDEO/DISCUSSION Groups was Re: Search for results of Elaine'stesting of bd preps
What we are doing here is holding an annual series of weekly videos (most from Bullfrog) about the leading minds in sustainable agriculture. Among these videos, we include LIFE IN THE SOIL and the Podolinsky film. Having this series allows us to get weekly publicity in the local newspapers. We do not get large crowd, maybe a dozen a night, but always new people each week, so over the course of the videos, we are touching a couple of dozen of individuals through the series (and the entire community through the newspapers and, yes, radio, which resulted in me doing a couple of radio interviews). We have attracted the local ag professor and have made a permanent friend for sustainable organic farming with the county hort agent. We, so far, have not reached consumers, but the potential is there, if we targeted mothers with young children with a different series of videos, I'm sure that we could attract that group. Anyone can do this. The discussions are not led, everyone sits in a circle and we just talk to each other about the ideas that come up. It is great to have a PhD with an albrecht-focus attending each week, but I'm sure we could have done fine without him, also! ;-) If you want to do this same series, I have the tapes and can loan them to you. I also have the press releases that you can modify. We can propagate this program across the country. (If, as Chris has suggested earlier, you are a person who has historically had huge distances between your Wants and your Will, don't waste my time, ok?) This year our series will start with a 7 week discussion of AGRIGULTURE, followed by the 7 week video/discussion series. It is being hosted by the sustainable ag program at Shepherd College and will have an initial enrollment of around 30 sustainable ag/enviro students. I'm excited!! It would be great if others have similar programs and we could get some synergy going with our materials. Also, as I'm sure most already know, there is a market for web-based education in this country and around the world. If we had a short web-based educational program, I think we could get it into the school system and, perhaps, even get paid to do so. The point here is that by going web-based we could bypass much of the greatest exepenses of video production and still hit a very important segment of the population (and be available on-demand to the rest) Just some thoughts. -Allan I think the Korrows' idea about doing a video is good. I have an excellent video on the patenting of life called Not for Sale from Moving Images Video Project, 2408 E. Valley Street, Seattle, WA 98112 206 323-9461, www.movingimages.org. Their distributor is Bulldog Films, I think. You could do worse than getting in with them. You want professional video people to make the film. There is a filmmaker here who made a video about Sandpoint which I am going to see for the first time on Sunday. You first need to decide what information you want to get across to people about Bio-Dynamics, then you need to find a filmmaker to work with to make it really good. Not for Sale has shots from all over the world, really exciting music and is very well put together and edited. I bet this group could collaborate over the net and come up with something that would set the record straight.
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
I do not understand the concern about compost tea. A survey released this week in Oz has found that something like 40% of women and 65% of men do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I consider that any risk from foliar sprays of compost tea pales into insignificance.. Gil I think we are concerned about people who do not wash their hands after wiping a grain-fed cows butt, Gil. I'm not that afraid of the germs I already have. (Hey, I could go on, but I won't! ;-) -Allan
strains of E. coli
strains of E. coli, do any one have the knowledge if E. coli have beneficial activity in the soil or promoting plant growth ? So the question is why E. coli bacteria ?? Do E. coli bacteria lose its power, or die of after being sprayed on crop ? Or is E. coli bacteria plainly bad. I had to ask Per Garp/NH
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Dear Frank, You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to nothing. Everyone has it. Right? Hugh, the presence of E.coli in water has long been used as an indicator of the potential presence of other, much harder to test for pathogens. High E.coli counts mean high risk of the other pathogens. Since animal guts are the usual and typical places for E. coli to propagate, and it generally doesn't propagate elsewhere, E. coli is used as the indicator workhorse. The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree to that? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere so far as I know, and I've been watching. Watch more closely, then. 0157:H7 is indeed most commonly found in feedlot cattle situations, but has been found elsewhere. http://www.about-ecoli.com/page4.htm The E. coli O157: H7 bacterium is believed to mostly live in the intestines of cattle,1 but has also been found in the intestines of chickens, deer, sheep, and pigs. http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf It is well known that ruminants (both domestic and wild) can be asymptomatic reservoirs of EHEC (Wells et al., 1991; Hancock et al., 1994; Bielaszewska et al., 2000). The microbial population of the ruminant is very diverse and microbes are found throughout the reticulorumen, as well as the intestinal tract. Because the gastrointestinal tract is well-suited for microbial growth it is no surprise that the ubiquitous and adaptable E. coli (represented by many strains, including EHEC) lives in the gut of mammals, including cattle and humans (Drasar and Barrow, 1985). * Researchers initially found that 16% of the animals tested in both beef and dairy herds were E. coli O157:H7 positive, and as many as 62% of dairy heifers were populated with E. coli O157:H7 (Mechie et al., 1997). Additional studies in Europe indicated that 18%, 32%, and 75% of dairy cows, sheep and goats, respectively (Zschöck et al., 2000), and 20% of feedlot cattle in the Czech republic were EHEC carriers (Cizek et al., 1999). http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/feng.html Escherichia coli serotype O157:H7 was only recognized as a human pathogen a little more than a decade ago, yet it has become a major foodborne pathogen. In the United States, the severity of serotype O157:H7 infections in the young and the elderly has had a tremendous impact on human health, the food industry, and federal regulations regarding food safety. The implication of acidic foods as vehicles of infection has dispelled the concept that low-pH foods are safe. Further, the association of nonbovine products with outbreaks suggests that other vehicles of transmission may exist for this pathogen. ** A puzzling incident was reported from northern Italy, where 15 cases of HUS, caused by serotype O157 and other EHEC serotypes, was recorded over a 5-month period in 1993 (17). These cases occurred in small towns scattered over a large area with little apparent connection to each other; therefore, common food vehicles and exposure to cattle were eliminated as possible sources of infection. However, data from the epidemiologic investigations suggested that contact with live poultry or with chicken coops may have been the source of infection, even though no toxin-producing EHEC strains were isolated from poultry feces. A recent study showed that inoculating 1-day-old chicks with strains of serotype O157:H7 resulted in rapid colonization of the cecal tissue of the chicks. The chicks then became long-term (up to 11 months) shedders of serotype O157:H7, and this microorganism was subsequently recovered from the shells of their eggs (18). It is conceivable, therefore, that live poultry were the source of infection in the outbreaks reported from northern Italy. There have been several outbreaks of 0157 infections associated with alfalfa sprouts, as well, to the point where research is being done to find seed decontamination procedures: http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/tektran/data/12/47/124779.html Which should prohibit compost teas from feedlot manures, but why prohibit any others? Other pathways for 0157 seem to be possible, and while it is most prevalent in feedlot manures, it may not be entirely absent in non-feedlot manures. If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. coli is meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 is. Basically correct, I think. There are tests coming online for E.coli 0157:H7 that give results in as little as 3 hours. A 24 hour tea could be tested at hour 21, results known at hour 24 and the tea cleared for spraying with a negative 0157 test as proof. http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/univ/ecoli.html Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis Avery, the infamous
Re: VIDEO/DISCUSSION Groups was Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
I would love to duplicate the program here, can I $$$ to copy the videos??? SStorch
COMPOSTING PREVIOUS MESSAGES
To all BD-Now members, I am trying my best to keep up with the TREMENDOUS VOLUME on this site and much of it is DIRECTLY APPLICABLE to my life and work so I THANK YOU for that. HOWEVER, more than half of your messages include a MILE OF PREVIOUS MESSAGE CRAP often going back 3-4 generations. Many times they have been spliced into and are complicated. Often I cannot tell what I have previously read until I am halfway through it. Grrr! With some messages I can't even tell what had been added by the sender!What a pain. To make matters worse, some of you set your browser to add your comments ABOVE the previous messages, some BELOW, while some people SPLICE into old messages. LIFE IS SHORT. Does anyone here enjoy this much less have time for it? Frankly I don't know of any other bb that even allows it. MY REQUEST is that each person take the time to DELETE ALL the inapplicable material, address blocks and clutter leaving only the PERTINANT STATEMENTS you wish to reply to, and then respond BELOW IT. Thanks, Will Winter (NOT the one from S.C. nor am I selling anything)
Re: Fw: Hidden Agendas? was Re: [compost_tea] Re: Testing NOPDecision {LONG}
Everyone gets on the lifeboat this time [Jane Parker 2002]...SStorch, Steve - I keep getting conflicting reports: do you have a wife and kids or are you a bachelor? -Allan
Re: COMPOSTING PREVIOUS MESSAGES
You're probably referring just now to Frank Teuton's recent message on hidden agenda's in tea brewing. That message was transferred from another list and appeared to be all quotes, wlhich it was, but it was new to this list. A very valueable forwarding it was, too. Your points are certainly well taken, Will, and it is my hope that the offending parties will pay more attention to you than they have, historically, to me, but I do have to say that, as in all therapies, here on BD Now! we seem to find that people who want to talk about the shape of the table or whether we can meet outside of the sessions really aren't applying themselves to the topics and, as a result, are both wasting bandwidth and failing to satisfy. You've got all the stars in your corner. Tell us about cows and e-coli. Tell us about holistic livestock management and no e-coli. Tell us about these things, if you will. I LOVE to hear you talk and your typing downright tickles me!!! -Allan
Re: Fw: Hidden Agendas? was Re: [compost_tea] Re: Testing NOP Decision {LONG}
We need to raise from the ashes of our civilization a new higher standard that will carry humanity far into the future... Agree, completely. And to remember out task on feeding health I want to add that one will no eat while someone else has nothing to eat. Nelson. - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
If one counted all the people that had a tummy bug from eating organic food over the the last hundred years it would be a lot less than those who have died or had serious complications over the last 20 years, from agricultural chemicals. The U.S.D.A. has this like a dog with a bone and will chew on it until it has lost its flavour. Cheers, Peter. - Original Message - From: D S Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening?
Fw: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics
- Original Message - From: Chuck Benbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics I have learned much from the ongoing dialogue re compost and compost tea safety and thank the technical experts for taking the time to walk the non-microbiologists among us through the issues/science. I agree there is much more to learn re how to assure compost safety and that the U.S., for certain, has underinvested in this promising technology. Still, the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for not just the sustainable ag/organic community, but also for FDA/USDA and practising soil microbiologists. I appreciate the passion and knowledge Elaine brings to this issue, and her patience and clarity in many recent posts, but her views are not universally shared among the relatively small group of scientists charged with the responsibility of advising the NOP/USDA re how to move forward with the regulation of compost tea applications under the NOP. I have had a chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which the work of the task force has come under attack, from a variety of quarters. We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel of organic farming and that they will misrepresent the views of scientists, government agencies, the local bartender to make their point and raise concerns. Of course they will also fully exploit any disagreements within the organic community, a process now under way. The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious and deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report and decisions could be regarded as consistent with the precautionary principle. There must be a very firm foundation if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits applications of compost tea under circumstances that might, even very occassionally, result in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination. Anyone who believes that technology and processes now exist, or can readily be developed, that would assure food safety following applications of compost tea should take their case, and data, to the task force and other technical advisory bodies. But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are wrong. Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical advisory body conclusions is to assure that the committees in the future are composed of open-minded people lacking conflicts of interest; are given the background and data needed to understand the issues they have been asked to review; and to package/present data and information before the committees in clear and compelling ways. The way the organic community deals with potential compost food safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping consumer attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food. I hope everyone with scientific/technical skills and experience on these issues will find a way to work cooperatively and together to assure that the pursuit of the disease control and agronomic benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of patience, caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical control and application of these technologies in the real world. Chuck Benbrook
Re: Fw: Hidden Agendas? was Re: [compost_tea] Re: Testing NOPDecision {LONG}
And to remember out task on feeding health I want to add that one will no eat while someone else has nothing to eat. Can someone fill us in more on this: I heard on PBS yesterday that Bangledesh was contributing more than any nation to the re-establishment of schools in Afghanistan, proving, of course, it's not what YOU have ...
Re: VIDEO/DISCUSSION Groups was Re: Search for results ofElaine's testing of bd preps
I would love to duplicate the program here, can I $$$ to copy the videos??? SStorch YOu can buy all of them but Life in the soil and Podolinsky from Bullfrog. Bullfrog is on the web and EVERYBODY should get a copy of their new catalog: filled with socially, Earthly, conscious video. There are better videos there than I used. Kirschenman's MY FATHER's GARDEN (or something like that) is superb and I haven't used it. I appreciate the Will, Steve -Allan
FW: [globalnews] Privatizing Water: National Update
Title: FW: [globalnews] Privatizing Water: National Update PUBLIC CITIZEN'S WATER FOR ALL CAMPAIGN Lexington Still Favoring Public Takeover Thames Water, the British subsidiary of RWE, the German conglomerate that is buying American Water Works, the U.S. parent of Kentucky American, the Kentucky company that owns the Lexington waterworks...yikes, no wonder people in Lexington want to grab their water system and put it under public ownership where it belongs. Public Citizen's recent report on Thames' miserable environmental record has proved to be an effective arrow in the quiver of public ownership advocates, who are also fighting RWE's purchase of American Water Works before the state Public Service Commission. Sadly, the PSC appears hell-bent on favoring the corporations at every turn -- the commission even rejected a request from Public Citizen to participate in the case. But the forces of good are winning the battle of public opinion -- Lexington area candidates who favored a public takeover beat candidates who didn't in this month's election. Battle Continues in New Orleans Though New Orleans officials voted to reject bids from French conglomerates to privatize a combined water and wastewater system Oct. 16, the multinational privateers continue to circle the city like buzzards looking for a way to renew their slim hopes and scavenge the city for profit. Which is to say the broad coalition that opposed privatization still has work to do, namely, convince citizens and the officials who represent them to a) embrace and support public system reforms that will not only save money but keep the money in the community, and b) watch their backs, lest the profiteers find a sneaky way to swoop back into the picture. Stockton City Council Pushes Forward with Privatization Despite Public Outcry The city of Stockton is continuing to push forward with its plans to negotiate a 20-year, $600 million contract with OMI-Thames Water, despite strong public outcry over reports of major problems with these companies in other cities. In a Public Citizen report documenting Thames' track record as one of England's top environmental polluters, Thames has been convicted of 24 crimes and fined $700,000 since 1999 for spilling raw sewage into waterways and into people's homes. Concerned individuals are asked to attend the city council meetings held every Tuesday at 5:30 p.m. to pose questions and raise objections to the city's plans to rush a vote on the contract before the March 4th city-wide election on an initiative requiring any utility privatization contract over $5 million to be put to a popular vote. Don't Bag our Water! (Gualala/Albion Rivers Update) The California State Water Resources Control Board will be extending the deadline for filing protests against Alaska Water Exports' applications to export water from the Albion and Gualala Rivers using giant water bags. The Board decided to extend the deadline after receiving this letter urging them to do so: http://www.citizen.org/documents/swrcbapp.pdf. The letter was filed by the Western Environmental Law Center on behalf of Public Citizen and a number of environmental groups. Anyone can fill out the Water Board's official protest form, found at http://www.waterrights.ca.gov/gual_alb/NoticesInfo.htm. To help people fill out the forms, workshops and meetings are being organized throughout Northern California, including a public forum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 9. For more details check: http://www.gualalariver.org/. Michigan Citizens Fight Ice Mountain / Nestle Waters Concerned citizens in Michigan are organizing against a water bottling plant recently built by Ice Mountain / Nestle Waters that pumps and bottles groundwater from a tributary of Lake Michigan. The plant's use of bulkwater from Lake Michigan opens the door for other multinational bulkwater sellers to use international trade agreements such as NAFTA to ship and send Lake Michigan's water all over the world. The Michigan Citizens for Water Conservation is currently fighting Nestle Waters with a lawsuit to try to protect the Great Lakes, and Michigan Rep. Bart Stupack has submitted an amendment to the Water Resources Development Act that would prohibit the diversion of all groundwater that feeds tributaries of the Great Lakes. To learn more, go to www.waterissweet.org or www.savemiwater.org. Water Rights in South Africa Public Citizen recently met with the South African Deputy Ambassador to express concern regarding the repression of water activists in South Africa. The meeting was set the day prior to the Oct. 23rd trial of the Soweto Electricity Committee (also known as the Kensington 87- for background information visit http://www.citizen.org/cmep/Water/cmep_Water/wssd/articles.cfm?ID=8151). The trial is clearly political - and is part of a string of crackdowns on activists in South Africa. The African National Congress, South Africa's ruling party, has, instead of supplying people with clean water,
FW: [globalnews] [mob-ny] Antiwar Alert, Nov. 13-20
Title: FW: [globalnews] [mob-ny] Antiwar Alert, Nov. 13-20 **MOBILIZE NEW YORK** is a concise weekly menu of options for action against the Iraq War 1. NOVEMBER 20 STUDENT DAY OF ACTION Students from all over the city will walk out of classes at noon and converge in Union Square at 1:00PM next Wednesday, November 20, for a youth speak-out against the Iraq War. More info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 212-969-8058 2. UPTOWN YOUTH ORGANIZING MEETING Uptown Youth for Peace and Justice is mobilizing youth of color for a December 14 antiwar march and rally. Plug in at their next organizing meeting, Wednesday, November 13 at 6:30PM, 2005 Amsterdam @ 159th St., 2nd Floor. More info: call Karim, 347-203-6157 3. IRAQ UNDER SIEGE BOOK LAUNCH South End Press has published a new edition of Anthony Arnove's Iraq Under Siege: The Deadly Impact of Sanctions and War. Join Arnove, Hany Khalil, and Frida Berrigan for an evening of political discussion, plus a photo exhibit and excepts from antiwar films, Wednesday, November 13, 7-9pm, at caipirinha productions, 510 La Guardia Place, 4th fl (betw Bleecker/Houston)More info: http://www.caipirinha.com/index1.html 4. MEDIA WAR TEACH-IN New Yorkers Say No to War, the African American Policy Forum, and Fairness Accuracy in Reporting are among the sponsors of Distorting Patriotism, Suppressing Dissent: How Media Generates Consent for War. 2:00-5:00pm, Saturday, November 16, at Columbia Law School, 435 W. 116th St, Rm 104. More info: http://www.nysaynotowar.org/ 5. STICKERS BUTTONS Too busy for meetings and teach-ins? Register your dissent by sporting an antiwar button or slapping a bumpersticker in your office cubicle. Three good sources: http://www.donnellycolt.com http://www.commondreams.org/orderstickers.htm http://www.gwbush.com/store/ Coming up NOV. 29: An Absurd Response to an Absurd War holds an NYC Procession for Perma-War (http://www.absurdresponse.com) DEC. 10: National Council of Churches sponsors Intl Human Rights Day antiwar gathering and civil disobedience at the U.N. (http://www.ncccusa.org/iraq/iraqschedule.html) JAN. 18-20: National antiwar demonstrations in Washington, D.C. **SEND US EVENT INFO: [EMAIL PROTECTED]** MOBILIZE NEW YORK is a concise weekly menu of options for action against the war in Iraq. To subscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our alter ego is AN ABSURD RESPONSE TO AN ABSURD WAR: http://www.absurdresponse.com
FW: [globalnews] Current Jupiter-Neptune Opposition Same as atStart of Vietnam War
Title: FW: [globalnews] Current Jupiter-Neptune Opposition Same as at Start of Vietnam War StarIQ.com Wednesday, November 13, 2002 Timing A number of StarIQ readers have asked for more information about the current Jupiter-Neptune opposition. The first of these three aspects occurred on September 11 and repeats on February 16 and June 2, 2003. Jupiter and Neptune are wide; their effects stretch out over time, making them harder to measure. Events tend to occur when faster moving planets, including the Moon and Sun, trigger the slower ones, like Jupiter and Neptune. It's useful to think about the opposition as a process, one that belongs to the 13-year Jupiter-Neptune cycle. Conjunctions begin each cycle; they are the seeds of what's to come. The opposition is the halfway point when the Earth is between the two planets. It is the Full Moon phase of maximum brightness, the most overtly expressive point; the most polarized. The opposition is as far apart as two planets can be. It is the maximum point of openness, yet it can also be madness. Maximum information. Too much information? The Symbolism Jupiter and Neptune share the rulership of Pisces and represent expansion. Jupiter is more worldly, it's associated with success on the material plane. Yet it also aspires to something more, as shown in its other home sign, Sagittarius. The Archer's arrow is aimed upward, a symbol for adventures of the body and the mind that take us beyond familiar territory. Neptune lives where Jupiter aims to go. It is the planet of the ethers, the all-encompassing world of spirit that contains matter. Neptune has neither aim nor direction. It expands everywhere, dissolving boundaries and barriers of body, mind and soul. Jupiter is religion and Neptune is spirituality. The former has judgment, while the latter does not. Together they can represent religion run amok, or any belief system that perceives itself to be above (or beyond) the law. Faith is a beautiful thing when it is wedded to compassion, but Jupiter can be consumed in the flame of its own truth and become indifferent to the suffering of non-believers. Jupiter is now in Leo, a sign of personal will and expression. Neptune is in the collectivist sign of Aquarius where the group is valued more than the individual. Leo is the hub (Leo) and Aquarius the spokes. Leo is the heart, Aquarius is the circulatory system. Leo is the star, Aquarius is the constellation. A negative expression of Jupiter in Leo is an inflated ego that sets itself apart from the larger environment in which it lives. The need to be right (a Jupiterian flaw) cuts off input from the rest of the organism, leading to blanket judgments based on limited information. Aquarius, too, can get caught in its own notion of what's best for everyone, but with cool detachment rather than Leo's drama. Neptune can either sensitize or anesthetize, with compassion holding the balance. There's something extreme about Jupiter-Neptune that can build a case based on false information. Neither planet wants to be bothered with details; both seek absolute solutions. We can skip past meaningful dialogue or analysis on the road to a higher truth, a grand crusade. Unless Neptune is finely attuned to the existence of others, it's possible to become drunk with the power of one's own righteousness. Yet, as always, with compassion real wisdom is possible. Recent Jupiter-Neptune Oppositions Since 1900 there have been eight series of Jupiter-Neptune oppositions prior to the present one. The first was in January 1901. The second was in January 1914 with Jupiter in Capricorn and Neptune in Cancer, five months prior to the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand that led to World War I. The third, with Jupiter in Aquarius and Neptune in Leo, occurred between April 1926 and January 1927. In March 1926 Robert Goddard launched the first liquid (Neptune) fueled rocked (Jupiter). On May 1926 and January 1927 U.S. Marines were sent to restore order in Nicaragua. In March 1927 U.S. Marines joined an international peacekeeping team in Shanghai, China. The fourth opposition had Jupiter in Pisces opposite Neptune in Virgo in April 1939. In March 1939 Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. Later that year Germany invaded Poland, which started World War II. The fifth opposition was in March 1952, with Jupiter in Aries and Neptune in Libra, during the latter period of the Korean War. The sixth opposition was from June 1964 to February 1965. In August 1964 a supposed attack on a U.S. vessel in the Gulf of Tonkin led Lyndon Johnson to request war powers that were given him by the Congress in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. This was the legal foundation for an expanded American presence in Vietnam that lasted until the end of the war. The Voting Rights Act, an important piece of Civil Rights legislation, was passed in early 1965. The seventh opposition was in June 1977. The Alaska Pipeline opened that month. Jupiter was in Gemini and Neptune was
FW: [globalnews] Medical Experts: Iraq war 'could kill 500,000' ,Mainly Civilians
Title: FW: [globalnews] Medical Experts: Iraq war 'could kill 500,000' , Mainly Civilians NewScientist.com The World's No.1 Science Technology News Service Iraq war 'could kill 500,000' 14:00 12 November 02 NewScientist.com news service A war against Iraq could kill half a million people, warns a new report by medical experts - and most would be civilians. The report claims as many as 260,000 could die in the conflict and its three-month aftermath, with a further 200,000 at risk in the longer term from famine and disease. A civil war in Iraq could add another 20,000 deaths. Collateral Damage is being published on Tuesday in 14 countries and has been compiled by Medact, an organisation of British health professionals. It comes as the Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein, is deciding how to respond to a series of deadlines on weapons inspections imposed by the United Nations. If he fails to meet any conditions, the US and the UK have threatened to destroy Iraq's presumed weapons of mass destruction using military force. The report has been commended by both medical and military specialists. It is really important that people understand the consequences of war, says Vivienne Nathanson, head of science and ethics at the British Medical Association. All doctors look at war with a very large degree of horror because they know the meaning of casualties, she told New Scientist. Even in the cleanest, most limited conflicts, people die and people suffer. General Pete Gration, former Chief of the Australian Defence Forces and an opponent of a war on Iraq, adds: This is no exaggerated tract by a bunch of zealots. It is a coldly factual report by health professionals who draw on the best evidence available. Nuclear attack The report assumes an attack on Iraq will begin with sustained air strikes, followed by an invasion of ground troops and culminating in the overthrow of Baghdad. It concludes that the resulting death toll will be much higher than either the 1991 Gulf War, which killed around 200,000 Iraqis, or the war on Afghanistan, which has so far left less than 5000 dead. In the report's worst-case scenario, nuclear weapons are fired on Iraq in response to a chemical and biological attack on Kuwait and Israel, leaving a massive 3.9 million people dead. But the report states that even the best-case estimates for a short war would initially kill 10,000 people, more than three times the number who died on September 11. The report argues that the 1991 war led to the severe weakening of the health of Iraq's people and the country's healthcare infrastructure, and that this would mean higher casualties in any new war. Casualties, the cycle of violence and other consequences continue to affect generation after generation, says the report's author, health consultant Jane Salvage. Rob Edwards This story is from NewScientist.com's news service - for more exclusive news and expert analysis every week subscribe to New Scientist print edition. .. Inner speed, outer caution; inner caution, outer speed --Words of Wisdom From the Great Caduceator Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . -- End of Forwarded Message
Re: COMPOSTING PREVIOUS MESSAGES
Good point, Will Gil
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
David, I brought this up to our National Organic/Biodynamic Production Standards committee (Australia)and they have spoken with the CSIRO re research into this issue. David Matthews is an Ex Vet and knows all about this stuff, and has mates in the right places. Now we have to look at research funding, especially trying to get the Organic levies outof the non-organic sphere. But fear not, it is being taken seriously and wheels are in motion. I really appreciate the discussion happening on BDNow to help this issue along. Cheryl Kemp Education and Workshop Coordinator Biodynamic AgriCulture Australia Phone /Fax : 02 6657 5322 Home: 02 6657 5306 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.biodynamics.net.au - Original Message - From: D S Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening? Perceptions are everything, if it can be traced that someone got ill from compost tea then there are legions of highly paid people who will push the perception, right or wrong, that all compost tea is bad. No amount of huffing and puffing will change the perception once instigated, rumour and innuendo is the way that chemical companies fight and there's plenty of suckers out there willing to listen to them. Ideas anyone? David C - Original Message - From: Hugh Lovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2002 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps Dear Frank, You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to nothing. Everyone has it. Right? The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree to that? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere so far as I know, and I've been watching. Which should prohibit compost teas from feedlot manures, but why prohibit any others? If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. coli is meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 is. Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis Avery, the infamous scientific prostitute. And please don't endorse his arguments by wishy-washy agreement that we have to beware of coliforms in compost tea. We all have coliforms. I don't think there are any exceptions. Compost teas may have coliforms. Sure. Will Brinton is doubtless right. Big deal. Coliforms are ubiquitous. Scare tactics? Why succumb to them? Please, let's everyone get their brains on. As you can tell, my Scotch blood rises and my gorge swells in anticipation of a truly non-scientific debate (battle) in which significance pales into nothingness and mass is the persuading factor. I feel like I'm putting on my breastplate and bucklers and flexing my arms, shoulders, torso and legs, preparing to confront the unscientific bastards promoting this agenda. I think they know better, the SBs. Thank God I can laugh. Best, Hugh Lovel Dear Hugh, The fact that we all carry benign strains of E. coli in our guts, and are colonized therewith shortly after birth, does not mean that there are not virulent strains of E. coli from animal sources that we need to be concerned about. The E. coli 0157:H7 issue is covered in a number of places; one recent paper that is interesting is: http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf The infectious dose is indicative of the virulence of pathogenic bacteria, and E. coli O157:H7 has an extremely low infectious dose. In one outbreak the contamination level of E. coli O157:H7 in uncooked hamburger meat was less than 700 cells/patty and some victims ingested very little of the (improperly) cooked meat (Griffin, 1998). The Walkerton water outbreak here in Canada underscored the manure problem associated with 0157:H7: http://www.med.uwo.ca/ecosystemhealth/education/casestudies/walkertonmed.ht m Now, Hugh, I am willing to accept that BD folks as a group are at low risk of having and spreading 0157 around. But, the NOSB has to deal with a larger universe of people than that, with composts coming from feedlot animals, and with an influx of newbies who may or may not know their excrement from their waxy shoe protectant, if you catch my reference... Compost tea is new. By that I mean compost tea as Elaine defines it, aerobically amplified and nutrient added. Whatever we should say about the Bess study, she showed that you can grow E. coli in a compost tea environment. For the most part E. coli is simply an indicator for the
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Title: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps I do not understand the concern about compost tea. A survey released this week in Oz has found that something like 40% of women and 65% of men do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I consider that any risk from foliar sprays of compost tea pales into insignificance.. Gil I think we are concerned about people who do not wash their hands after wiping a grain-fed cows butt, Gil. I'm not that afraid of the germs I already have. (Hey, I could go on, but I won't! ;-) -Allan Allan, some times I have had a confusion as to which end you was using. Now I know the source of the the confusion. By the by your belief is miss guided. Your own germs recycling through you will be destructive and could account for chem sensitivities. Thank you Gil, your right on! L*L Markess
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
- Original Message - From: Cheryl Kemp David, I brought this up to our National Organic/Biodynamic Production Standards committee (Australia)and they have spoken with the CSIRO re research into this issue. David Matthews is an Ex Vet and knows all about this stuff, and has mates in the right places. Now we have to look at research funding, especially trying to get the Organic levies outof the non-organic sphere. But fear not, it is being taken seriously and wheels are in motion. I really appreciate the discussion happening on BDNow to help this issue along. Cheryl and David What are the present FOOD SAFETY regulations that apply to use of Compost tea and similar materials on food crops - and I think here would be included things like liquid fish fertiliser, liquid kelp, some of the humate products. ??? Who sets these rules ?? Who enforces them ?? I know I am a bit strange but I dont think it is the place of certifying agencies like BFA co to make decisions based on food safety that affect the whole community, after all crappy compost tea sprayed on conventionally raised crops is gonna be just as unsafe.? Shouldnt this be someone else's patch - the same people that certify the safeness of GMO raised and Endosulfan enriched vegies should be in charge of that?? My local reseller of toxicology just informed me that Endosulfan is still legal on vegetables as is parathion and chloropyrifos - witholding periods of a matter of days from spraying to consumption - but if you want to spray it on grass to feed to beef cattle for export slaughter its six months witholding. (just a sample of what we are up against). This whole deal on CT regs is about multinational money - got nothing to do with consumer safety (or very little anyway) Lloyd Charles
