Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Also stated by York is that even bd is not an answer in and of itself for a system as complex as a monoculture as an overhybridized vineyard. Premium viticulture and great farming practices are part and parcel. The tea is poo-pooed by Brinton because he did not raise it to the level it has attained. The science is young, but think of the diversity you can bring to the soil in a monoculture situation with these teas in a cheap fashion. diversity is the key here...sstorch
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Also stated by York is that even bd is not an answer in and of itself for a system as complex as a monoculture as an overhybridized vineyard. The tea is poo pooed by Brinton because he says that other, less expensive, less labor consuming methods will produce the same results. Will published on this in BIODYNAMICS in the early 90's. York's message has always been, in any situation, that the preps are NOT magic, that they are a necessary input to a fully developed horticultural needs of the crop and a mature agriculural understanding of the needs of the soils. Practical as he is, one never hears of him creating a scenario in which the preps are left out. That said, York will still tell you that the preps will not work miracles by themselves. Saddest news I had late last week was that JPI has had no increase in inquiries after the Alt. Vit Conference. What about you, Steve? Have you gotten much follow up? -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
In a message dated 2/9/03 9:50:43 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What about you, Steve? Have you gotten much follow up? -Allan I offered Marc Chien to do a practical work day rigging and inoculating a brewer with stirring and applying some bd remedies. Your November conf should include that. There is a big interest from Eric Morgan at Organic Approach...sstorch
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
You're listed as a speaker at the Nov 14 conference We can put that as your topic, if you'd like. each speaker is getting from 3-4 hours to make their case. The time does not have to be contiguous, however. http://www.gardeningforthefuture.com/biodyn and push the banner I offered Marc Chien to do a practical work day rigging and inoculating a brewer with stirring and applying some bd remedies. Your November conf should include that.
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Dear Lloyd, It seems to me that Messrs York amd Brinton must be farming in some very good country to claim that any system must be able to produce reliable results year in , and year out. they obviously dont farm in an area which has any climatic limitations like we are at the moment.Last Sunday when we came home from the peace march temperature at 6pm was 44 degrees Celcius (110oF). It had been somewhere about that for the previous week, with gale force winds. Then the gale force winds became freezing cold, down to 5 degree Celcius (40o F). Quite a change. How can anyone claim that a productionv system has to be able to produce reliable crops when Australian farmers continually face this challenge of extremely variable rainfall and temperatures. Even if you are an irrigation farmer there is hardly any water allocated because it is not in the dams. As you know our area is generally acknowledged as a pretty safe rainfall area, average 800 mm anually. In the last 15 months rainfall has not reached 150 mm. I know that your farm has not fared much better. Under these conditions any improvement from the use of radionics is easily observed. The fruit trees are in the best condition that I have ever seen them. Particularly with no water since last winter. The grass in between the trees is non existent, just dust. The earth is cracking but the trees are in fantastic health. As good an advertisement for a combination of BD and Radionics as you would ever wish to see. Most of the stock on the mountain have been depastured to other areas or are on the road, scrabbling whatever survival feed they can find. On Sattwa Park even although to look at it you would wonder what the stock are eating they are still in very good condition. The major problem that we have at the moment is drinking water for stock and household water. I am sure that when it eventually rains we will see the recovery results from the use of Radionics and BD. Go well James Hedley. - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:28 AM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged Hi Allan Hmmm crops reliably produced -year after year I certainly would'nt make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow nature to function properly. When I go look at the people that are making alternative agriculture work well in most cases they are using a broad range of tactics, and if not they are happily sequestered on a patch of specially good and fertile soil that forgives the mistakes. Away from those places you mostly find that a balanced combination of good basic soil remineralisation, stimulation of microbial activity, and energetics is whats needed for best results, BD or radionics (energetics) without the minerals is a struggle, likewise a mineralised soil low in energy, microbial stimulation (compost tea etc) without attending to basic minerals will crash and burn one day too. Of course we can always take the other road and adjust yield expectations downward to come in line with the low fertility - many wine grape growers do this with seeming good results - planting on a dry barren hillside and thinning the crop, ' stressing the vines' so that the low supply of soil minerals is sufficient to give high quality fruit and make top grade wine - the logic of this escapes me but it seems to work - I think differently - why not grow on a more hospitable patch - aim for better yield and supply the minerals that are lacking ?? My thoughts anyway Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there no level or no amount of S that is not "gross"? There are times that we apply 3 pounds per acre of dusting sulfur to beautiful hillside vines that have been certified organic for 15 years. Its only on occasion, not even every year. These vines produce grapes that are very high quality, composted, cover cropped, fed soil minerals, fed foliar minerals and respectedloved by those who work with them. What's is so horribly gross about this practice? These are 20-50 acre fields. Our training, pruning and manipulation of the canopy and crop during the season is a primary prevetion of PM. I seen first hand some of the drawbacks of sulfur. But there are trade offs in not using sulfur. Low rates of sulfur, used early in the season does not end up in wine, as a general rule. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Bob Not sure if this is reply to my earlier post ? it would appear it is unneccessary if our experience is anything to go by. We have grown table grapes in aplastichouse for some 5 seasons with no fungalproblems of any sort. We are now working with outside wine grapes -to achieve the same. My comments were in response to Alan Yorks comments of 'no need to extend BD prep usage'' - yet he still sprays Sulphur as a fungicide. In short he still does not have his vineyards balanced or knows his preps well enough to use them to balance the environment. This is organics with the BD preps, not biodynamics. GA - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts Is there no level or no amount of S that is not "gross"?There are times that we apply 3 pounds per acre of dusting sulfur to beautiful hillside vines that have been certified organic for 15 years.Its only on occasion, not even every year. These vines produce grapes that are very high quality, composted, cover cropped, fed soil minerals, fed foliar minerals and respectedloved by those who work with them. What's is so horribly gross about this practice? These are 20-50 acre fields. Our training, pruning and manipulation of the canopy and crop during the season is a primary prevetion of PM.I seen first hand some of the drawbacks of sulfur. But there are trade offs in not using sulfur. Low rates of sulfur, used early in the season does not end up in wine, as a general rule.Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
GA, it is interesting what you have...what variety of table grapes do you raise? Bob
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
I'm sure one of the reasons Alan York has never seen anyone radionics is that I have never heard of anyone on the North Coast of California (Napa, Sonoma, Mendocino) who is even playing with radionics. If there is any here using radionics, they are keeping pretty quiet. And sulfer is a way of life out here. Every 10 to 14 days from flowering through veraison. Powdery mildew is a big problem and sulfer is the only Organic method that works reliably. Peter
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Peter, Am curious if you use a degree day model for knowing when the PM pressure is greatest. Also, do you have good mineral balance in the soil and in the vine? Having good levels of soil/vine calcium, boron, zinc and phosphate (in addition to others) has been a very, very important part of keeping PM under management with my clients/vines. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, Your question, "Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew?" lacks a critical component to be of most use. How about taking into account the rest of the farm plan. In other words, if you are using compost tea to manage PM, is it the only management step being taken? Is it white grapes or black? What is the environmental pressures? Humid/cool climate? Is there a nearby vineyard (other) that has PM problems? What is the soil/vine health plan and does it address the need for B, Ca, P K and Zn? Why think that using an external (from the top down) application of anything is going to be sufficient to address a problem as complex as PM infection? I never approach PM from the top down, only. There needs to be an integrated approach that includes soil/vine nutrition, cultural controls and additionally topical applications. Where the particular vines are grown are very significant in this question. Are you comfortable/healthy standing in a polar zone? Are you comfortable/healthy standing in the Sahara desert. Likely not. I dont thing that vines planted in the wrong spot (a spot with environment not to the vines liking) are going to be conformable and healthy enough to defend without something as strong as suffer? Most vines that are easy to defend from PM, defend themselves. If you have bad PM, the question is why? Bob PS I still have been unable do get AY presentation off of real player. I get to the real player screen and then nothing works? Must be me. Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Neither Alan nor myself have seen much from radionics. There are significant use of radionics in N. California and I work on jobs where its use has been very well practiced. Maybe its me...I just cant find results...to date. Looking for the wrong thing? Maybe. Bob
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Title: Message Yes, we are using a model, but it has not significantly reduced sulfer use as far as I know as the pressure in the North Coast most of the summer is always high. 80 degrees and decent humidity. Peter -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:32 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt postsPeter, Am curious if you use a degree day model for knowing when the PM pressure is greatest.Also, do you have good mineral balance in the soil and in the vine?Having good levels of soil/vine calcium, boron, zinc and phosphate (in addition to others) has been a very, very important part of keeping PM under management with my clients/vines.Bob
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, Your question, Do you know of anyone using compost tea and failing to control powdery mildew? lacks a critical component to be of most use. Bob - I think you are asking a different question than I'm asking right now. Using compost tea and failing to control disease is not a damnation of CT per se. that's not what I'm getting at, though, I'm simply asking who or what we as a group know on the gross level: Anyone or anyone you know using compost tea on powdery mildew? Is it working or is it not working? After that, your questions would be helpful. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
- York is not an old guard BD person. He put 'dynamics' way behind good farming practice and knowledge of the crops being grown. I have no doubt that if he had seen an application of effective radionics that he wouldn't be applying it to all of his accounts. My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in your country as well as here! Its also only one of many tools and if a person cant use it to good effect then perhaps he's wiser to choose a simpler tool? Most drivers would make better progress in the family sedan than driving a ferrari eh? . Gimme that man's address and phone number and Ill pass it to Mr. York. I'll have to check that - he may not want to go there. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in your country as well as here! Lloyd - I can't do justice to this because I do not have verbatim notes, but I noticed over and over again that as I asked Mr. York or Mr. Brinton about the effectiveness of one dynamic approach to another - - from Heinz Groetzke's 100% chicken manure tea to radionic application, each of them in their own way and own words asked 'Why would a person need that? There must be something fairly basic that is not right or you wouldn't be looking for something so extreme.' on top of that, Alan York said a couple of times (maybe even on the tape that I've published at www.gardeningforthefuture.com) 'I think this is all much easier than we are making it.' Which is to say, good farming practices are enough to produce a good farm; the preps are what are needed to produce food fit for human development. (And the development of real soil structure, I'd have to add from the recent AP readings!) Going ahead, because Alan York uses the preps whereever he works (all of the preps), I asked him about horn clay. I told him that it is widely believed that the preps won't work well unless they were mediated through the use of horn clay. He said 'Well, I must be remiss. I've never noticed that the preps were not working.' Again: this is not presented as 'the Truth' or to contradict someone else's experience. I'm putting this man's extensive and effective biodynamic experiences out here for less experienced growers to factor into their decisions for their own approaches. -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there a way to download Alan York's talk so that I can listen to it without interruption? Peter Young Bennett Valley Vineyards -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Allan Balliett Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts My apologies to Mr York! I guess too that I need reminding occassionally that radionics only works well in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, there are'nt many around, count em on your fingers probably in your country as well as here! Lloyd - I can't do justice to this because I do not have verbatim notes, but I noticed over and over again that as I asked Mr. York or Mr. Brinton about the effectiveness of one dynamic approach to another - - from Heinz Groetzke's 100% chicken manure tea to radionic application, each of them in their own way and own words asked 'Why would a person need that? There must be something fairly basic that is not right or you wouldn't be looking for something so extreme.' on top of that, Alan York said a couple of times (maybe even on the tape that I've published at www.gardeningforthefuture.com) 'I think this is all much easier than we are making it.' Which is to say, good farming practices are enough to produce a good farm; the preps are what are needed to produce food fit for human development. (And the development of real soil structure, I'd have to add from the recent AP readings!) Going ahead, because Alan York uses the preps whereever he works (all of the preps), I asked him about horn clay. I told him that it is widely believed that the preps won't work well unless they were mediated through the use of horn clay. He said 'Well, I must be remiss. I've never noticed that the preps were not working.' Again: this is not presented as 'the Truth' or to contradict someone else's experience. I'm putting this man's extensive and effective biodynamic experiences out here for less experienced growers to factor into their decisions for their own approaches. -Allan
RE: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Is there a way to download Alan York's talk so that I can listen to it without interruption? What's the interruption? Please explain. Thanks Physical tapes may become available from Penn State, but the organizer implied that he was in no hurry to dupe them. Let me know what you need to make the sound file work for you. The file, incidentally, is 150+ megs and took me 2.5 hours to upload on DSL! -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan Balliett wrote: I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged Gil writes:- I have a lot of difficulty make up my mind as to answer or not answer this sort of post. Do York/ Brinton suggest that the only credible people are those who do not charge for services rendered? Do they get their chemicals free and the knowledge to apply them without charge? If they need an operation, do they pay and trained and equipped person, or do they seek some one with some likely looking tools and who does not charge a professional fee and accept that as a professional service? If all does not go well, do they then denigrate all trained persons? I can not speak for those whom York/ Brinton are judging. It may be that those involved are not fully trained and there fore not providing a reliable service. There may be third party influences that are negating the Radionics. An example is a photograph Hugh published in an Acres USA, that clearly showed the effect of a power line across a crop of corn and the resulting reduction of the beneficial effect. We know that the effect of Nuclear Power Stations is much larger than the promoters would have us think. In many areas, ground water carries so much chemicals from other properties, that one must first start a program of nullifying that before doing other work. Those of us involved, can tell so many stories of positive results, it is with wonderment that we read this sort of statement. Is it possible that York/ Brinton made their judgement on the work of some dabbler who is not properly trained? Gil
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
'Bd farms'' that still spray Sulphur or copper still have problems. I understand Mr Yorks vineyards still use these gross methods. WHat are they covering up and can grapes be grown with out them? Yes we have done it for several years - in a plastic house Glenn. Thanks for posting. I think that York's answer would be that economics force them to use varities that are technically unsuitable for the sites they are planted on but the effectiveness of conventional practices have made vineyard owners expect to be shipping grapes from these varities from those locals each season. OR the vines were converted from conventional to biological and do not perform 100% under biological management. The use of sulphur is not routine. The use of copper is all but prohibited.
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Those of us involved, can tell so many stories of positive results, it is with wonderment that we read this sort of statement. Is it possible that York/ Brinton made their judgement on the work of some dabbler who is not properly trained? Gil - This wasn't a call to judgement. It was a simple statement that in the course of their work, neither of these men have seen or heard of a farm where radionics was making a definite contribution to the the economic success of the enterprise. More importantly, my statement is from private conversation. It's not my intention to encourage personal attacks on men who were simply stating their observations. I will tell you one thing on the powerline story. I'm working out here in horse country outside of Washington DC. It's not uncommon to see the big arrays of trancontinental power lines x-the road and run away in the hills to either side. At the Blue Ridge Center they ran over the Blue Ridge right before our eyes. Although I always look, I have NEVER^ seen a clear example of the powerlines affecting the growth of plants. Furthermore, I regularly see cattle grazing under the lines when the cattle have the opportunity to graze hundreds of yards away. Furthermore, brush grows freely and wildly under the lines at the Blue Ridge Center, requiring brush clearing (lots of young oaks) twice a season. *The only time I saw what appeared to be a case of the growth of grass diminished under a line on examination turned out to be caused by ROUNDUP and not eminations from the powerlines. Again, just my observations. No need to feel that I'm challenging your observations. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
My statement concerning the power lines in Hugh's published photo was to refer to an image that I assume many on the list, if they are serious about non chemical agriculture, would subscribe to Acres and be familiar with that photo. The photo is related to Radionic Broadcast, not trees, cattle or scrub. I mearly noted that example as an image that I thought should be familiar to a reasonable proportion of the list, without posting photographs, which it seems many can not handle. I could list many things that distort or block a Radionic Broadcast. I believe these factors show us clearly how it is working when not blocked or interfered with. As for power transmission lines, both my son and I can detect these when being driven, blindfold in a car. [We have some one else drive.] I also have an instrument and antenna built in Oz by Hugh Sangster, based on Dr Phil Calahan's work, that measures the radiation from Power Lines and the readings are parallel with the sensations experienced by a sensitive when passing under them. Some types of fencing material will interfere with Radionic Broadcast, just as they can negate micro waves and Radar. I can go into this at depth, but it may not be of interest to the list. We also have identified like interference with Towers of Power. Gil Allan Balliett wrote: Gil - This wasn't a call to judgement. It was a simple statement that in the course of their work, Snip
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged Hi Allan Hmmm crops reliably produced -year after year I certainly would'nt make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow nature to function properly. When I go look at the people that are making alternative agriculture work well in most cases they are using a broad range of tactics, and if not they are happily sequestered on a patch of specially good and fertile soil that forgives the mistakes. Away from those places you mostly find that a balanced combination of good basic soil remineralisation, stimulation of microbial activity, and energetics is whats needed for best results, BD or radionics (energetics) without the minerals is a struggle, likewise a mineralised soil low in energy, microbial stimulation (compost tea etc) without attending to basic minerals will crash and burn one day too. Of course we can always take the other road and adjust yield expectations downward to come in line with the low fertility - many wine grape growers do this with seeming good results - planting on a dry barren hillside and thinning the crop, ' stressing the vines' so that the low supply of soil minerals is sufficient to give high quality fruit and make top grade wine - the logic of this escapes me but it seems to work - I think differently - why not grow on a more hospitable patch - aim for better yield and supply the minerals that are lacking ?? My thoughts anyway Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Hmmm crops reliably produced -year after year I certainly would'nt make that claim for radionics(on its own), nor would I support it for biodynamics(on its own), it certainly does not happen in conventional agriculture, no one way is reliable when taken in isolation, and isolation is the special talent of scientists - when we eliminate the variables to allow a 'valid trial' we also eliminate many of the mechanisms that allow nature to function properly. Lloyd - Looks like I was suffering more of a failure to communicate than usual yesterday! Brinton and York were ruing that they have never seen an affective application of radionics. This was not meant to imply that the radionics would be in isolation. It meant that the radionics was an effective component of a farm management system. On the BD only remark, one can some times pick up the sense on this list that the preps are enough to make anyone a good farmer/gardener. York points out in his presentation that the men who gathered to listen to RS speak were not only very good farmers but they, for the most part, were also very perceptive individuals, realizing that early in the game that chemical agriculture was destroying the fertility of land and the flavor and nutritional value of food. Even AP, they say, is a stupendously talented farmer and that his successes in Australia are due to him experience-based insights into the needs of the land and the farms and not 'solely' due to the regular application of BD 500. (This one, I admit, I have problems with. I can't see how much direct input AP can have into millions of acres and hundreds of farms, many of which are operated with men who have no philosophical predisposition to holistic agriculture.) Thanks for bringing these points up, Lloyd. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan Would double embryo wheat and barley be good enough evidence to support the worth of radionics. It took one of Arden Andersen's best clients 20 generations (10 years) to do this out in Washington state with wheat and foliar fertilisation dont know whether they used radionics or not and its only a story he tells - no reason to doubt it though. Our radionics man in australia did this in three years using radionic analysis to maximise the energetic effect of fertiliser programs (base and foliars). I saw the crop of barley at harvest time and believe me it was not a case of 'finding' one or two, at least 60% of the plants we pulled were double embryo - gone clear through to harvest as healthy robust plants in a drought year, this guy is also keeping pest species out of crop paddocks spread from central queensland to tasmania by using radionic broadcast from his home base in southern victoria nightingales out of poppy fields, insect pests out of pea and bean crops, etc , etc) commercial farmers are paying him good money to do this stuff. Maybe Brinton and York dont want to see a result - after all radionic and homoepathic use of the BD preps has not been flavour of the month with old guard BD people. Its usually difficult to see something that you have decided not to look for. Mopre later Lloyd Charles
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Maybe Brinton and York dont want to see a result - after all radionic and homoepathic use of the BD preps has not been flavour of the month with old guard BD people. Its usually difficult to see something that you have decided not to look for. Lloyd - York is not an old guard BD person. He put 'dynamics' way behind good farming practice and knowledge of the crops being grown. He's the most pragmatic grower I've met who did not come from Australia! I have no doubt that if he had seen an application of effective radionics that he wouldn't be applying it to all of his accounts. This is not to deny the effectiveness of radionics, it's only to say that a man as present in dynamic agriculture as long as York has been says that he's never seen any situations that indicate a positive effect from radionics. Gimme that man's address and phone number and Ill pass it to Mr. York. -Allan
COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be. Alan York asks people to ask the hard questions. He says a hard question right now is 'Do you know of a vineyard that has effectively controlled foliar disease with compost tea for three seasons.' He's willing to back this question down to one season. (The unusually dry summer this past year has eleviated foliar diseases across the board, tea or no tea.) Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves. She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds in the teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were not necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton stated that there is not need for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about it folks: Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales people in Pennsylvania have received letters from the EPA telling them that they cannot sell their products as disease control products because there is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE. Again - I'm sharing this info for your own evaluation. I've got egg on my face, of course. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Alan, thanks for this post, I find it very interesting. I have been interested in compost teas for some time and have played with a brewer of my own creation. When Will Brinton said, good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already. does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? daniel - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts Blame this one on me, folks, but one of the most astounding upshots of this week's conference was the chance to meet with experienced growers who have worked with compost tea and who have found teas to be much less effective than we have heard people proclaim them to be. Alan York asks people to ask the hard questions. He says a hard question right now is 'Do you know of a vineyard that has effectively controlled foliar disease with compost tea for three seasons.' He's willing to back this question down to one season. (The unusually dry summer this past year has eleviated foliar diseases across the board, tea or no tea.) Vicki Bess, who is a compost tea advocate who spoke at this conference, felt that the push to diversity and high counts is not a push towards teas that really work on the soils or even the leaves. She said, and Will Brinton concurred, that it is the feeds in the teas that select the final microbial mix and these microbes were not necessarily the ones that would do as good of works as ones commonly dominant in dry compost. Will Brinton stated that there is not need for pumped up populations of microbials. He feels that this is unfounded, unscientific hysteria. He went on to say that good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already!! Think about it folks: Even better: Compost tea and brewer sales people in Pennsylvania have received letters from the EPA telling them that they cannot sell their products as disease control products because there is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE. Again - I'm sharing this info for your own evaluation. I've got egg on my face, of course. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already. does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from conjecture. Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, did Will say what kinds of studies or testing ? thanks, daniel - Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already. does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from conjecture. Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Allan, did Will say what kinds of studies or testing ? thanks, daniel will operates Woods End Lab, one of the oldest soil and microbiology labs in the country. Apparently he has published research on this topic in BIODYNAMICS. I'm searching for the article and will let you know more about it when I find it. -Allan
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
Its just a shame though that these stories, just like mine, of achieving frost tolerance in wheat via high brix, are anecdotal and dont count!! (sorry Laura and Bill I believe you just like you would probably believe my brix thing) Lloyd et al - For the purposes of AY's request, it's fine if the reports are anecdotal. In fact, for these purposes, if you are talking about your own experiences, we won't call that anecdotal. If you are talking about a third party's good fortune, we'll have to consider that to be anecdotal. York (AY) is simply stating that he's never met anyone who has had repeated good luck with teas. He does not find it to be a reliable approach to managing a potentially lucrative crop. As he says Let's face it, we're in business. I'm going with what works. In AY's mouth, though, this is never an excuse to grab the chem cans. He has a program of cultivation, fertilization, IPM and spraying that works for him. I'll just put this out here for comment: Alan York and Will Brinton both state that they have never seen or heard of claims of crops reliably produced (this means year after year, something that excludes many variables: repeatability) through the use of radionics, except by people who are involved in selling radionics on some level. First person ndorsements to the contrary are encouraged
Re: COMPOST TEA was Re: Perry's recnt posts
I've got my wires x-d again. Will things that compost just soaking in an ocassionally stirred barrel is good for curing foliar diseases. It is my impression that he thinks it is actually better, perhaps simply because it is easier and cheaper to make than the aerated variety. He also thinks that 'just stirred' BC makes very good a very good foliar application and did publish an article on this in Biodynamics. I hope this is helpful -Allan good compost tea has all the microbiology a person needs for controlling foliar disease - WITHOUT BREWING IT other than we do already. does this meaning stirring or just letting compost soak in water? This is a 'typo,' buddy. Will was saying that good BARREL COMPOST (BC) has everything we need if we simply prepare it as directed (stir for 20 minutes) This was based on studies from his lab, not from conjecture. Thanks for drawing this out. -Allan
