Re: [Newbies] Machine gun the Balloon!

[David T. Lewis]

Kirk,

I like your ideas about what is a "developer" :-)

Thanks,
Dave

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 12:11:19PM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> You can dismiss it as my own personal mid-life crisis if you like.  But as
> you have offered your suggestions for reprogramming my personal point of
> view, let me offer some for yours.
> 
> > What about the 99.99% of people on the
> planet who are not application developers?
> 
> I see all people as application developers in the wetware of their own
> minds and hearts.  They all need but not all want help to program
> themselves to perfection which can unlock miracles that Jesus Christ's
> gospel speaks of.
> 
> Although I consider myself world class in Bible analysis, I find nobody
> cares. So as my time on the planet is limited, I'm using Squeak to build an
> Artificial Intelligence to encapsulate my level of understanding so
> children in the future can learn to meet and exceed my skills, which may
> help end world hunger, poverty, illiteracy,, crime, terrorism, and war.
> 
> I think part of that vision is what motivated Alan Kay to pour himself into
> trying to make the world's kids become programmers through EToys and others
> similarly with Scratch.
> 
> > To me that is what makes Squeak special. It is a tool for thinking and
> learning, and it is accessible at people with all sorts of interests and
> ideas. It is not just for programmers and application developers.
> 
> Often I must fight my imperfect dreams and pray for the perfect.  In this
> case I suggest analyzing your statement until you understand the oxymoron.
> I can write a one word text file that is accessible to all sorts of people
> but so what?  What matters is what Squeak can do for me and others who
> download it.  With the 2-3 button mouse preference error Squeak is no
> better than a screen saver image to the majority even if Squeak is
> otherwise so good it should have been the first computer language instead
> of Fortran and thousands of other languages should never have been
> invented.  In the 5 computer stores I frequent, I can't recall seeing a
> laptop with a 3 button mouse. You are asking me and 99.99% of the world to
> think so highly of Squeak even in its dysfunctional state that they worship
> it like the people did in the story of the emperor with no clothes.
> 
> > It's just that to me, it would be really discouraging if Squeak got
> turned into a "development tool", and disappointing if people did not see
> its role as something
> more than just another programming language.
> 
> If it is not a superior development tool then it is just another
> programming language but only when it works.  The lack of development in
> Smalltalk is why it is dying like human languages such as Esperanto or
> Latin.  See
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyIsSmalltalkDead
> If Squeak gets used in more viral applications then people will get more
> interested in learning it.
> 
> Kirk Fraser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 10:38 AM, David T. Lewis  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, May 06, 2016 at 12:02:52PM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote:
> > > Byte magazine which published the balloon concept for Smalltalk rising
> > > above the ivory tower of a lighthouse guiding the way in a sea of
> > computer
> > > languages is out of business. I think it is time for the Squeak balloon
> > to
> > > be grounded to connect with the reality of why computer languages exist -
> > > to make things easy for application developers.
> >
> > I hope that you do not truly believe this, that Squeak should exist for the
> > benefit of application developers. What about the 99.99% of people on the
> > planet who are not application developers?
> >
> > After all, it's not as if the application developers of the world aren't
> > already focusing enough attention on their own self-centered interests,
> > and it's not as though the world really needs yet another software
> > productivity tool.
> >
> > To me that is what makes Squeak special. It is a tool for thinking and
> > learning, and it is accessible at people with all sorts of interests
> > and ideas. It is not just for programmers and application developers.
> >
> > I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from writing useful
> > applications in Squeak, that would be great. It's just that to me, it
> > would be really discouraging if Squeak got turned into a "development
> > tool", and disappointing if people did not see its role as something
> > more than just another programming language.
> >
> > Just my personal POV.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > ___
> > Beginners mailing list
> > Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> >

> ___
> Beginners mailing list
> Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

___

Re: [Newbies] Machine gun the Balloon!

[Kirk Fraser]

Dave,

You can dismiss it as my own personal mid-life crisis if you like.  But as
you have offered your suggestions for reprogramming my personal point of
view, let me offer some for yours.

> What about the 99.99% of people on the
planet who are not application developers?

I see all people as application developers in the wetware of their own
minds and hearts.  They all need but not all want help to program
themselves to perfection which can unlock miracles that Jesus Christ's
gospel speaks of.

Although I consider myself world class in Bible analysis, I find nobody
cares. So as my time on the planet is limited, I'm using Squeak to build an
Artificial Intelligence to encapsulate my level of understanding so
children in the future can learn to meet and exceed my skills, which may
help end world hunger, poverty, illiteracy,, crime, terrorism, and war.

I think part of that vision is what motivated Alan Kay to pour himself into
trying to make the world's kids become programmers through EToys and others
similarly with Scratch.

> To me that is what makes Squeak special. It is a tool for thinking and
learning, and it is accessible at people with all sorts of interests and
ideas. It is not just for programmers and application developers.

Often I must fight my imperfect dreams and pray for the perfect.  In this
case I suggest analyzing your statement until you understand the oxymoron.
I can write a one word text file that is accessible to all sorts of people
but so what?  What matters is what Squeak can do for me and others who
download it.  With the 2-3 button mouse preference error Squeak is no
better than a screen saver image to the majority even if Squeak is
otherwise so good it should have been the first computer language instead
of Fortran and thousands of other languages should never have been
invented.  In the 5 computer stores I frequent, I can't recall seeing a
laptop with a 3 button mouse. You are asking me and 99.99% of the world to
think so highly of Squeak even in its dysfunctional state that they worship
it like the people did in the story of the emperor with no clothes.

> It's just that to me, it would be really discouraging if Squeak got
turned into a "development tool", and disappointing if people did not see
its role as something
more than just another programming language.

If it is not a superior development tool then it is just another
programming language but only when it works.  The lack of development in
Smalltalk is why it is dying like human languages such as Esperanto or
Latin.  See
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyIsSmalltalkDead
If Squeak gets used in more viral applications then people will get more
interested in learning it.

Kirk Fraser







On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 10:38 AM, David T. Lewis  wrote:

> On Fri, May 06, 2016 at 12:02:52PM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote:
> > Byte magazine which published the balloon concept for Smalltalk rising
> > above the ivory tower of a lighthouse guiding the way in a sea of
> computer
> > languages is out of business. I think it is time for the Squeak balloon
> to
> > be grounded to connect with the reality of why computer languages exist -
> > to make things easy for application developers.
>
> I hope that you do not truly believe this, that Squeak should exist for the
> benefit of application developers. What about the 99.99% of people on the
> planet who are not application developers?
>
> After all, it's not as if the application developers of the world aren't
> already focusing enough attention on their own self-centered interests,
> and it's not as though the world really needs yet another software
> productivity tool.
>
> To me that is what makes Squeak special. It is a tool for thinking and
> learning, and it is accessible at people with all sorts of interests
> and ideas. It is not just for programmers and application developers.
>
> I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from writing useful
> applications in Squeak, that would be great. It's just that to me, it
> would be really discouraging if Squeak got turned into a "development
> tool", and disappointing if people did not see its role as something
> more than just another programming language.
>
> Just my personal POV.
>
> Dave
>
> ___
> Beginners mailing list
> Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
___
Beginners mailing list
Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Re: [Newbies] Machine gun the Balloon!

[David T. Lewis]

On Fri, May 06, 2016 at 12:02:52PM -0700, Kirk Fraser wrote:
> Byte magazine which published the balloon concept for Smalltalk rising
> above the ivory tower of a lighthouse guiding the way in a sea of computer
> languages is out of business. I think it is time for the Squeak balloon to
> be grounded to connect with the reality of why computer languages exist -
> to make things easy for application developers.

I hope that you do not truly believe this, that Squeak should exist for the
benefit of application developers. What about the 99.99% of people on the
planet who are not application developers?

After all, it's not as if the application developers of the world aren't
already focusing enough attention on their own self-centered interests,
and it's not as though the world really needs yet another software
productivity tool.

To me that is what makes Squeak special. It is a tool for thinking and
learning, and it is accessible at people with all sorts of interests
and ideas. It is not just for programmers and application developers.

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from writing useful
applications in Squeak, that would be great. It's just that to me, it
would be really discouraging if Squeak got turned into a "development
tool", and disappointing if people did not see its role as something
more than just another programming language.

Just my personal POV.

Dave

___
Beginners mailing list
Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Re: [Newbies] Re: Machine gun the Balloon!

[Kirk Fraser]

Yes but I don't have a website to download from.  So I'll send it via email.

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Joseph Alotta 
wrote:

> Kirk,
>
> I would be interested in looking at your balance tree algorithm.
>
> Do you have some code that I can inspect?
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joe.
>
>
>
>
> > On May 7, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Kirk Fraser [via Smalltalk] <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
> >
> > Newbies, I learned by examining a Dictionary until I understood how it
> works and that got me a job. I also got a little help from an old college
> chum after I started a Smalltalk special interest group of the Portland PC
> Club. Beyond that it was learning by doing, hiring an offshore consultant
> for a special project to make a database using a Balanced Tree algorithm
> (which oddly is not part of Squeak when that one data structure could
> replace most of the rest of them.  Then there was the occasional help by
> Squeak experts on various things like how to turn off preferences or where
> to find code to work with a camera. A big help has been focusing my
> attention on writing a new computer language in Smalltalk which requires
> lots of work that most programmers never do.  But I still can't count
> myself as an expert because I don't know lots of important things yet like
> how to use FFI or how to write an FF or how to make Squeak work on a
> Windows 98 computer which i have to use to run a CNC machine.
> >
> > Experts, my OP was mainly  to talk you into doing some real useful work
> on Squeak instead of aggrandizing yourselves on work that is not truly
> useful - you know replacing all the collections with a Balanced Tree might
> be nice or making sharp examples of Secure Sockets or FFI that people can
> use or get Squeak repaired so it can work on Win 98 or without Halos
> replacing menus or how to make most of the programs one might download from
> CNet but I guess it rings a bell with the real newbies that there isn't
> enough help anywhere.  To translate that, I as an intermediate programmer
> need to be taught how to be  senior programmer.  So we need better
> mentoring for everyone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Phil (list) <[hidden email]>wrote:
> > Joe,
> >
> > On Fri, 2016-05-06 at 13:23 -0700, Joseph Alotta wrote:
> > > I am a beginner with Squeak and the problem I am facing is not
> > > knowing how to go about using the tools available.
> >
> > Having gone through this myself not too many years ago, yet before
> > things really started to get crazy (in good and bad ways) in the Squeak
> > world, I appreciate what you're saying.  Squeak and its dialects can
> > seem pretty impenetrable until you learn 'the basics' which
> > unfortunately are a bit of a moving target (esp. re: the tools and UI)
> > depending on what you're trying to learn/do.
> >
> > >
> > > There is a lot of language information, but not a “here’s what we do”
> > > best practices for developers.  I don’t mean coding, but I mean, how
> > > to find the resource I need.  How to build your project in pieces
> > > that you can test, etc.
> >
> > This is where things probably get pretty tough once you get beyond the
> > absolute basics.  In its effort to get better, things are constantly
> > being broken in ways that are often no big deal once you get over the
> > hump and learn your way around.  However, they're changing enough to
> > 'break' a lot of the existing tutorials and they're changing often
> > enough that said tutorials don't seem to be getting updated to reflect
> > the changes in later releases.  As if this weren't enough, there are
> > factions with different views on overall direction which directly
> > impacts things like best practices and is why we have different
> > 'distros' ala Squeak/Pharo/Cuis/etc.
> >
> >
> > > What I was looking for is an Apprentice kind of relationship, but
> > > nobody seems interested or nearby.
> > >
> >
> > That's probably going to be difficult as Smalltalk has a very small
> > population of programmers vs. other languages.  So getting someone with
> > experience to spend 1-on-1 time with is going to be difficult and/or
> > expensive.  Your best bet to get started is to read the mailing lists
> > (I would recommend this list, squeak-dev, and cuis as they are all good
> > places to ask basic questions) and just ask when you get stuck.  There
> > are a few good written works you can use as a starting point (you might
> > want to check out something from http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/792) and
> > there are several people who have put together some good intro material
> > on YouTube (For example Lawson English https://www.youtube.com/playlist ?list=PL6601A198DF14788D"
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/playlist
>
> > ?list=PL6601A198DF14788D and the late James Robertson https://www.youtu
> > be.com/playlist?list=PL61A023880D3529DB have put together some basic
> > stuff that should 

[Newbies] Re: Machine gun the Balloon!

[Joseph Alotta]

Kirk,

I would be interested in looking at your balance tree algorithm.

Do you have some code that I can inspect?


Sincerely,

Joe.




> On May 7, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Kirk Fraser [via Smalltalk] 
>  wrote:
> 
> Newbies, I learned by examining a Dictionary until I understood how it works 
> and that got me a job. I also got a little help from an old college chum 
> after I started a Smalltalk special interest group of the Portland PC Club. 
> Beyond that it was learning by doing, hiring an offshore consultant for a 
> special project to make a database using a Balanced Tree algorithm (which 
> oddly is not part of Squeak when that one data structure could replace most 
> of the rest of them.  Then there was the occasional help by Squeak experts on 
> various things like how to turn off preferences or where to find code to work 
> with a camera. A big help has been focusing my attention on writing a new 
> computer language in Smalltalk which requires lots of work that most 
> programmers never do.  But I still can't count myself as an expert because I 
> don't know lots of important things yet like how to use FFI or how to write 
> an FF or how to make Squeak work on a Windows 98 computer which i have to use 
> to run a CNC machine.
> 
> Experts, my OP was mainly  to talk you into doing some real useful work on 
> Squeak instead of aggrandizing yourselves on work that is not truly useful - 
> you know replacing all the collections with a Balanced Tree might be nice or 
> making sharp examples of Secure Sockets or FFI that people can use or get 
> Squeak repaired so it can work on Win 98 or without Halos replacing menus or 
> how to make most of the programs one might download from CNet but I guess it 
> rings a bell with the real newbies that there isn't enough help anywhere.  To 
> translate that, I as an intermediate programmer need to be taught how to be  
> senior programmer.  So we need better mentoring for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Phil (list) <[hidden email]>wrote:
> Joe,
> 
> On Fri, 2016-05-06 at 13:23 -0700, Joseph Alotta wrote:
> > I am a beginner with Squeak and the problem I am facing is not
> > knowing how to go about using the tools available. 
> 
> Having gone through this myself not too many years ago, yet before
> things really started to get crazy (in good and bad ways) in the Squeak
> world, I appreciate what you're saying.  Squeak and its dialects can
> seem pretty impenetrable until you learn 'the basics' which
> unfortunately are a bit of a moving target (esp. re: the tools and UI)
> depending on what you're trying to learn/do.
> 
> >
> > There is a lot of language information, but not a “here’s what we do”
> > best practices for developers.  I don’t mean coding, but I mean, how
> > to find the resource I need.  How to build your project in pieces
> > that you can test, etc.   
> 
> This is where things probably get pretty tough once you get beyond the
> absolute basics.  In its effort to get better, things are constantly
> being broken in ways that are often no big deal once you get over the
> hump and learn your way around.  However, they're changing enough to
> 'break' a lot of the existing tutorials and they're changing often
> enough that said tutorials don't seem to be getting updated to reflect
> the changes in later releases.  As if this weren't enough, there are
> factions with different views on overall direction which directly
> impacts things like best practices and is why we have different
> 'distros' ala Squeak/Pharo/Cuis/etc.
> 
> 
> > What I was looking for is an Apprentice kind of relationship, but
> > nobody seems interested or nearby. 
> >
> 
> That's probably going to be difficult as Smalltalk has a very small
> population of programmers vs. other languages.  So getting someone with
> experience to spend 1-on-1 time with is going to be difficult and/or
> expensive.  Your best bet to get started is to read the mailing lists
> (I would recommend this list, squeak-dev, and cuis as they are all good
> places to ask basic questions) and just ask when you get stuck.  There
> are a few good written works you can use as a starting point (you might
> want to check out something from http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/792) and
> there are several people who have put together some good intro material
> on YouTube (For example Lawson English  href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist ?list=PL6601A198DF14788D" 
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/playlist
> ?list=PL6601A198DF14788D and the late James Robertson https://www.youtu
> be.com/playlist?list=PL61A023880D3529DB have put together some basic
> stuff that should be helpful)
> 
> Something I'd highly recommend: if you find a tutorial you like, find
> out what version of whatever dialect they based the tutorial on and try
> to use that *exact* version (or at least get as close as you can: if
> something was written with Squeak 3.x