[Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
It doesn't help that blurbs like the following appear. this is from the ACM TechNews for Aug 14, 2006 in the article "5 That Almost Made the List of Greatest Software":"Another close runner up was Smalltalk, a major breakthrough to be sure, but one that has been eclipsed by Java's network-oriented structure that will have much greater staying power as the Internet age progresses."I guess that it was just easier for the writer to describe Smalltalk as that tired, out-of-date stuff, rather than do a little research and discover that Seaside's continuation passing style is at the forefront of web server development, as described in the new O'Reilly book "Beyond Java". --Bert___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
you are right! BTW did you try http://smallwiki.unibe.ch/Botsinc for your kids and also Plop (but that this is really for the total fun). You should have a look at Dolphin this is even slicker :) Stef On 14 août 06, at 07:46, christo wrote: Hi All, I'm VERY new to Smalltalk and I'm currently cherishing my first impressions of Squeak (because they are informative not because they are positive) and further I am paid to write Java at work. With that out of the way I'd like to agree with Keith Hodges here. Its all down to marketing marketing and more marketing. Very true. It's something I've observed many brilliant programmers utterly fail to grasp. For those of you who fail likewise this try this exercise: Imagine your first experience of something new. Imagine you can't stand the smell of it. You have such a visceral response to it that you really don't want to consider any other worthy attributes of it. The only thing that can occupy your mind is that it stinks and you want to throw up and please can someone just get it away from you. Now imagine something that has not been expertly marketed and designed (though not necessarily commercially marketed and designed). To the vast majority of people (perhaps not people like you and perhaps not rightly) this new thing smells just like the thing you imagined. Until that marketing happens (either virally through personal recommendation or through more traditional means) that thing will stink for anyone else who goes near it. I hope this metaphor isn't too way out but for me it captures the problem with Squeak (and other good technical things that have not had their due attention in the world). I know squeak isn't Smalltalk but I ultimately tried Squeak because I wanted to teach my kids programming and learn a nice language myself. So far so good but I decided to carefully capture some of my initial impressions. Squeak definitely lacks any kind of capable graphic design or usability sense. It's not a criticism because of course I can try to help fix it etc etc. But it is intended to serve as an explanation to those who just can't imagine why others wouldn't fall instantly in love with it. I've lumped visual design and marketing together in this discussion which is usually an oversimplification, but I think it contrasts with the purist engineering aspect. The name Smalltalk also smells by the way. Java used to smell a bit because it sounds kinda funky and unprofessional on first hearing to a middle manager, but over time this reaction has been marketed away. Smalltalk sounds to those folk like something feeble, uncapable. It can be overcome but only with attention paid to promotion. Marketing forms preconceptions and prejudices. Lack of marketing makes things seem suspect and unworthy in comparison to those things that get good press (however unworthily). I do intend to follow advice I've received from professional Smalltalk developers and get Cincom's IDE but I don't think that's going to be part of my project to teach my kids to program. You should have a look at Dolphin this is even slicker :) Feedback encouraged. Regards, Chris. -- Chris Mountford In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:20:08 -0700, Klaus D. Witzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Blake, on Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:48:58 +0200, you wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 05:58:54 -0700, Klaus D. Witzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:43:46 +0200, Michael Kohout wrote: When I get home(and if the weather isn't too nice) I play with Squeak. But when I go to work, I write Java(like a lot of people on this list, I'd imagine). 8-) I can pretty much choose whatever I want to work in. I'm looking for an in for Smalltalk, but I have to interact with a lot of MS products Then, how about doing something for the opposite direction, Squeak as a COM-server (like MS$ had done the Java extensions in their MSJAVA VM)? See for example - http://www.visoracle.com/squeakfaq/com-activex.html which mentions the Squeak .NET bridge from SqueakMap. That's a very interesting idea, Klaus. I'll check it out! ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
Thanks all for the feedback.I think marketing tends to focus on very simple positive aspects. Something like it's just better will usually suffice. It's precisely the thing that is very difficult to argue in detail about and it has an unambiguous emotional impact. Getting into language comparisons is often beside the point since people are making an emotional reaction and then perhaps rationalising things post hoc (justifying by finding reasons for their emotional choices). Not everyone does this but I suspect a large number of people do. Look at Macintosh. When the thing was first released it had no hard drive, no colour, no software and it was expensive. Apple's marketing was it's a macintosh. That was enough! It wasn't marketed as a computer. It's a whole new thing for which there is no comparison. Many sober comparisons of Mac against alternatives didn't fall in favour of Mac. The formula is working. People love their macs! By the way I'm not suggesting they aren't great machines in their own right. Thanks for the pointers about Botsinc, Blake and Dolphin, Stéphane I'll check them out.Regards,-- Chris MountfordIn theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
Hi All,I'm VERY new to Smalltalk and I'm currently cherishing my first impressions of Squeak (because they are informative not because they are positive) and further I am paid to write Java at work. With that out of the way I'd like to agree with Keith Hodges here. Its all down to marketing marketing and more marketing.Very true. It's something I've observed many brilliant programmers utterly fail to grasp.For those of you who fail likewise this try this exercise: Imagine your first experience of something new. Imagine you can't stand the smell of it. You have such a visceral response to it that you really don't want to consider any other worthy attributes of it. The only thing that can occupy your mind is that it stinks and you want to throw up and please can someone just get it away from you. Now imagine something that has not been expertly marketed and designed (though not necessarily commercially marketed and designed). To the vast majority of people (perhaps not people like you and perhaps not rightly) this new thing smells just like the thing you imagined. Until that marketing happens (either virally through personal recommendation or through more traditional means) that thing will stink for anyone else who goes near it. I hope this metaphor isn't too way out but for me it captures the problem with Squeak (and other good technical things that have not had their due attention in the world). I know squeak isn't Smalltalk but I ultimately tried Squeak because I wanted to teach my kids programming and learn a nice language myself. So far so good but I decided to carefully capture some of my initial impressions. Squeak definitely lacks any kind of capable graphic design or usability sense. It's not a criticism because of course I can try to help fix it etc etc. But it is intended to serve as an explanation to those who just can't imagine why others wouldn't fall instantly in love with it. I've lumped visual design and marketing together in this discussion which is usually an oversimplification, but I think it contrasts with the purist engineering aspect.The name Smalltalk also smells by the way. Java used to smell a bit because it sounds kinda funky and unprofessional on first hearing to a middle manager, but over time this reaction has been marketed away. Smalltalk sounds to those folk like something feeble, uncapable. It can be overcome but only with attention paid to promotion. Marketing forms preconceptions and prejudices. Lack of marketing makes things seem suspect and unworthy in comparison to those things that get good press (however unworthily). I do intend to follow advice I've received from professional Smalltalk developers and get Cincom's IDE but I don't think that's going to be part of my project to teach my kids to program. Feedback encouraged.Regards,Chris.-- Chris MountfordIn theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
[Newbies] Re: Why hasn't Smalltalk been wildly accepted?
Hi Blake, on Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:48:58 +0200, you wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 05:58:54 -0700, Klaus D. Witzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:43:46 +0200, Michael Kohout wrote: When I get home(and if the weather isn't too nice) I play with Squeak. But when I go to work, I write Java(like a lot of people on this list, I'd imagine). 8-) I can pretty much choose whatever I want to work in. I'm looking for an in for Smalltalk, but I have to interact with a lot of MS products Then, how about doing something for the opposite direction, Squeak as a COM-server (like MS$ had done the Java extensions in their MSJAVA VM)? See for example - http://www.visoracle.com/squeakfaq/com-activex.html which mentions the Squeak .NET bridge from SqueakMap. /Klaus ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
