Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Nightly Build 7.6, 0 r31672 + Itunes Integration
Awy: have you been looking into to this? Any idea to download and install a newer nightly build? Thanks in advance :). Peter -- lirsa lirsa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42421 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84292 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
Philip Meyer;602750 Wrote:
>
> It doesn't even have to be a simple switch in the GUI - maybe only
> power users that know what they are doing might configure it in prefs
> file directly.
>
I agree with this, hiding the setting is exactly what Logitech should
do.
This will make all normal users to use SQLite but still makes it
possible for developers and advanced users to keep using MySQL.
If they do this they don't even have to prioritize correcting the MySQL
bugs, they can leave these up to the community and if they community
provide a patch they can commit it. No extra QA for Logitech and no
extra bug analyzing/fixing time for Logitech, they can put all efforts
on SQLite and just help the community commit MySQL patches if such
patches are provided by community members.
If patches aren't provided before the release we can always share them
afterwards, developers and advanced users will probably be happy to
apply a patch in their local system to make it work as they like.
--
erland
Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84697
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[SlimDevices: Beta] Wrong color of the "network ligth" on controller
Is this a known bug ? It's showing re when it should be blue ? Server off , perfectly connected to my network has ip etc can ping mysqueezebox.com . In fact for a long time it only shows red or white never blue . As i don't have it on DHCP I don't expect green or yellow, but it have shown blue ligth in the past. It's setup on static IP. To get it into this stage I simply power it on while my server is off. Merely cosmetic but if it's a common problem it might confuse support in the future. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) PLEASE FIX BUG 112 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84828 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
[SlimDevices: Beta] 99% cpu
With the latest nightly I am getting continual 99% cpu utilisation. At first I thought it was a bug with the lazysearch plugin, but I disabled and it still occurs. Even after clearing the cache dir and rescanning this occurs. I then end up with lots of the following entries repeated in my logs and SC taking 99% of cpu. [11-01-16 11:41:18.6384] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:20.0887] Slim::Schema::Debug::query_start (23) SELECT me.name, me.value FROM metainformation me WHERE ( name = ? ): 'lastRescanTime' [11-01-16 11:41:23.8217] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:28.9230] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:34.0406] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:39.1726] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:44.2784] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:49.8873] Slim::Control::Queries::_getTagDataForTracks (6528) _getTagDataForTracks query: SELECT tracks.id, tracks.title, tracks.url FROM tracks WHERE tracks.id IN (5624) GROUP BY tracks.id / [] [11-01-16 11:41:50.7691] Slim::Schema::Debug::query_start (23) SELECT me.name, me.value FROM metainformation me WHERE ( name = ? ): 'lastRescanTime' Anyone have any ideas why this is happening? I have autorescan: 0 set in my config. Cheers, Menno -- menno menno's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11751 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84826 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Missing album art in recent build
Issue also on the Touch Now Playing as well. -- dwilliams01 dwilliams01's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10988 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84797 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
>And then in the future users see a setting to switch to MySQL and think >'hey I heard that - this is the famous open source DB, let's use this' >and fail because: >- Logitechs QA is not as dedicated to MySQL compared to SQLLite >- They still have they virus scanners on causing trouble (even me is >getting a support request once a month, which in the end boils down to >virus scanner issues). > That's fine - they'd have an option, and if it didn't work, could switch back. >So again unhappy customers for no reason. > Or happy customers because they have an option, and it may work better. >Keeping MySQL only has drawbacks and very rare pros: > I see no drawbacks for end-users, as they have an option. I see little drawback for provision of the DB engine, as it is already provided. If it fails to work in future, maybe third-party devs would fix and provide patches. It doesn't even have to be a simple switch in the GUI - maybe only power users that know what they are doing might configure it in prefs file directly. I've never used the built-in MySQL instance, I've always used my own by manually configuring the prefs file. There has been little analysis to compare performance. Will SQLite actually work well enough for everyone on every platform? To totally remove MySQL, switch to SQLite and release only to find major issues with SQLite would be annoying. I'm fairy happy to switch to SQLite, if there's evidence that it provides equivalent/better functionality/performance to my current experience, and not just because it has to be used for embedded SBS for Touch for Logitech to sell Touch's, and not detrimental to full SBS. SQLite is certainly not as good for development (poor dev tools, in comparison), and performance is vastly reduced if you don't lock the DB file to allow DB probing. The SQL engine itself has lots of very iffy things, SQL query language isn't as good and is missing loads of things. Not sure about character encoding issues - we could end up with even more bugs/things that won't be fixed because DB doesn't support blah blah. eg. "SQLite does not enforce the length of a VARCHAR. You can declare a VARCHAR(10) and SQLite will be happy to let you put 500 characters in it. And it will keep all 500 characters intact - it never truncates." Sometimes you want a DB engine to fail/constrain data size. It pushes problems further into app code, so more checking may be required to protect app. "Case-insensitive matching of Unicode characters does not work." >(-) you get all kind of trouble with virus-scanners again > I don't see this issue really. Anything that writes/locks files can have trouble with virus scanners. Why should SQLite be any safer to MySQL? Phil ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
>I'd say almost all of them. > I've used several products (including, but not limited to: MSE, AVG Free, Comodo Firewall, Comodo AntiVirus), and only had a problem with MSE, which I quickly found and fixed by setting an exception (I think I needed a reboot too, for the exception to work). I'm sure there's other apps on the market that also use MySQL. Did those suffer the same problem? i.e. was it the way that SBS was locking the file, or was it a generic issue? >Many "normal" user falls on the first hurdle actually realising that >you have to setup the AV software. > Many "normal" users don't bother to install AV software. Maybe they get a 1 year licence with pre-installed software on a new PC; but in my experience of helping out family and friends, they don't generally bother to renew/install other packages. People "in the know" do; but then they are a bit more likely to know a thing or two when issues occur. ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
+1 drop mysql asap, migrate all db plugins and move on! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84697 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
Mnyb;602726 Wrote: > > None of this is really logitechs problem , but it manifest when trying > to run the server and blame will fall acordingly. And it migth not be a > positive consumer experience to fall on you face when trying to set up > the thing :) And then in the future users see a setting to switch to MySQL and think 'hey I heard that - this is the famous open source DB, let's use this' and fail because: - Logitechs QA is not as dedicated to MySQL compared to SQLLite - They still have they virus scanners on causing trouble (even me is getting a support request once a month, which in the end boils down to virus scanner issues). So again unhappy customers for no reason. Keeping MySQL only has drawbacks and very rare pros: (+) you keep a minority happy who insist on using MySQL. (-) you have twice the QA+Development costs (having a big automated testsuite does not prevent this. In the end you need to do the integration test, as the databases DO differ: transaction handling, deadlock escalation, internal query optimization, index usage). And if you consider MySQL as the first choice for huge music collection you just have to care and can't just hope that queries that work well on SQLite will do so on MySQL. (-) third party devs have twice the effort: even if erland decides to support only SQLite. Who will be the first to demand MySQL-support from him ? (-) you get all kind of trouble with virus-scanners again My vote: just drop MySQL and keep away from all the troubles you will have with supporting two databases. By the way: did the server code had some closed source as well? If that's the case using MySQL (as you link the GPL driver) would be a GPL license violation anyway. -- bluegaspode Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your AppStore: *'Squeezebox + iPad = SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)* - -now featuring streaming to iPad!- Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? => why not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827) Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? => why not try my 'Headphone Switcher Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139) Setup: 1x SB-Controller+Receiver (Duet), 1xSB-Boom. 2xSB-Radio Server (7.5.1) running on SheevaPlug (Ubuntu) with attached Western Digital MyBook Essential. bluegaspode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31651 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84697 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
andynormancx;602721 Wrote: > It wasn't just one security product, several of them have had similar > problems with mysql over the years. I'd say almost all of them. Many "normal" user falls on the first hurdle actually realising that you have to setup the AV software. You see treads like "the scanner is crashing" , or "no artwork in sbs". And then some would not accept the settings and in some "home" or free version of some AV products you don't have such "advanced" settings (obviusly crap software but thats how it is) so you have to hack the registry. McAffe and ESET also had bugs not only MSE, probably also comodo etc . None of this is really logitechs problem , but it manifest when trying to run the server and blame will fall acordingly. And it migth not be a positive consumer experience to fall on you face when trying to set up the thing :) -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) PLEASE FIX BUG 112 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84697 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Compilation bug again? 7.6.0 - r31691
>I personally feel that Logitech has taken the "consistency between >interfaces" paradigm a bit to far with the result that all interfaces >towards a Squeezebox is very consistent but also less useful/user >friendly compared what could have been the case. > I personally think that some parts of the UI's are inconsistent for no real reason, which is annoying, and other parts of the UI are consistent which may hold back that interface a bit. >The same paradigm could be used on the SBS web interface which could be >a lot more useful if it used the advantage of a large computer screen, >for example in similar fashion as WinAmp. > The SBS web interface is quite different to other interfaces. eg. browsing lists offer alpha bar or page number hyperlinks; easier to switch sort order in album view, etc. The web interface is the easy one to think of enhancing for better ways of browsing a music collection, but also the one that is perhaps least useful, and less likely to be changed/supported by Logitech. When selecting something to play, it's often via the player that I want to play it on. The Web App isn't supported by Tiny SBS, and not useful for MySqueezebox.com. ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
Philip Meyer;602631 Wrote: > > I guess that when Logitech moved from SQLite to MySQL many years ago, > there weren't any problems, and then a new security product came along > that doesn't play nice with MySQL. It wasn't just one security product, several of them have had similar problems with mysql over the years. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84697 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Compilation bug again? 7.6.0 - r31691
>i see you and others tell people all the time to delete their AA tags >on comps. that advice is no good if they use WMP or winamp. > No, I don't say to delete AA tags on comps. That's fine (but what I do say is they are not compilations in that case, unless compilation tag is also added). What I do say is that it's not important to add AA tags unnecessarily on everything (i.e. normal albums). iTunes, etc, works the same as SBS in this regard - the apps present an Album Artist which is the normal artist on the tracks. >if however they keep their AA tags, their music is NOT detected as >comps by SBS, even though they are comps! and if the string is >"Various Artists" the tracks are NOT displayed via home>artists as per >bug 9523 > Then add the compilation tag, which doesn't break any other app. >> If people put compilation tags in their collection, then that tag will >> be used and albums treated as such in the UI. > >and here you do exactly what i said you would, you'd suggest some >workaround that for WMP or winamp users requires a 3rd app. BAD >DESIGN. > No I don't - albums can still have an album artist tag, so WMP and WinAmp should be fine. And if other apps don't work well, that's a problem to be fixed in those apps. Making a well behaved app work poorly because other apps are poorly doesn't sound like progress. >the point is that a WMP/winamp/etc user should be able to ID a comp to >SBS without having to change their tags beyond what the app that >created them did. feel free to disagree as i'm sure you will, but imo >if SBS is going to go to such extraordinary lengths to accommodate >itunes crap, (supports TCMP, integration, etc) they could tack on a >string recognition for these guys. > I don't see that there is something to accommodate. WMP/Winamp don't support compilation indications in any way. They don't have hard-coded strings to detect compilations. There are no compilation albums to these apps, just albums that have an album artist name that can be whatever the user wants (same as SBS/iTunes, but no additional marker to support a list of all compilation albums). >(and user defined string recognition is not that different from the >current "guess tag formats" option, which serves wav users well) > That's totally different. Guess Tags works on generic pattern matching, not hard-coded strings. eg. artist=folder name, album=sub-folder name, track/title=file name. It's nothing like a hard-coded list of values to compare against tag values to set some other tag value. >to a degree, yes... but as i've told you before, SBS calls ANYTHING >with a mismatch (and lacking AA tags) a comp, and this is not always >desireable, meaning that you have to AA tag it since you can't just >turn off the VA auto detection, which i know YOU wouldn't like, but >others might. > Some very small number of people may think that might be a good idea instead of fixing tags, but that's because they haven't thought all the way through the implications of disabling the logic, or havn't had the experience of what SBS was like before the decision was made to add that logic into the scanner. If tags are entered correctly, all apps are happy. If tags are not entered correctly, apps are unhappy, but SBS is happier than most. ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Compilation bug again? 7.6.0 - r31691
>yes, genres are tricky, but i disagree that it would be silly to have >an album listed under multiple genres. whats the problem with that? >once you went into the album, you'd only see songs matching the genre. > >what i am trying to say is that i think starting a sort with genre >would be fine. > If there is a list of things, and a list is sorted in different ways, I'd expect the same number of items in the list, but ordered differently. If some attributes (columns) of items (rows) have multiple values, it's not really possible to sort it (but instead can be considered as a grouping). Some people like to see the whole album, even if they browse to the album via a filtered list, eg. Browse Genres > [genre] > [album] could either show all songs on the album, or only songs that were in the selected genre. I think it would be useful to implement a switch within a menu/view (toggle to show all songs on album, or filtered), rather than a global setting. >duplicating an album is not always a problem. if you don't want an >album to duplicate, then just pick it first in the sorting method. > That's not a solution all the time. It's the cartesian product of all items in the join. There may be a sort on album first, but when there are linked items that have multiples, it results in multiple rows/duplicate albums, which would be especially confusing/awkward to visualise on SBS players (eg. 2-line Squeezebox classic player UI). eg. What if you want to sort by album and then artist contributors, when different songs have multiple contributors? Or album and then genre. What if you want a list of any type of contributor, whether it be an artist, band, composer, conductor? ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already
>I might be wrong but I believe the main difference is not in the SQL, >the main difference is related to in-process database or a database >that runs as separate process. > Yes, and that's where I think that MySQL was already supported and working well, so for 7.6 it should be a matter of adding additional support for SQLite. Once done, there shouldn't be much to go wrong/change over time, as either platform should use a generic "how does app talk to database" solution. >Logitech has taken advantage of the in-process paradigm of SQLite to >get a more effective system and this makes it more complicated to also >support MySQL. > Whether it's more effective is still open to debate, I think. It shouldn't be more complicated - just a different implementation of a generic interface. >The big problem is the time it takes to do QA on two databases. This >effectively duplicates the testing time on some parts of the system. If >Logitech only do QA on one of the databases the other one isn't going to >work reliably. > Should be setting up automated tests, and/or using targetted regression tests. If the generic interface works for some tests, the engine used for the back-end shouldn't matter. ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Compilation bug again? 7.6.0 - r31691
Philip Meyer;602248 Wrote: > >I only add the ALBUMARTIST tag, remove the COMPILATION tag, to force > >Squeezebox Server to list this album under the ALBUMARTIST and not > >under the Various Artist menu. It would be nice though if it could be > >listed under both the Album Artist and the Various Artist menu. > > I think it does, if you add a COMPILATION and an ALBUMARTIST. i.e > because it's a compilation, it will be in the "Various Artists" list, > and because it has an album artist name it would appear under that > artist name too. > > At least for the 1 case where I have done this in my library, I have > the album appearing within both, but the artist has normal albums as > well, so that artist would have normally been in the list anyway, so I > can't tell if it always includes the album artist in the list of > artists. As I said before, in this case the album artist is not shown in the artist list (unless he or she also has a normal album with no compilation tag). -- vagskal 2 x SB3 (wired), Receiver (wired), Boom (wireless), Controller, iPeng on iPhone 4 & iPad, muso on remote computer running Win 7 | 7.5.3 on Win XP vagskal's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20778 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84475 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
Re: [SlimDevices: Beta] Playback dropout at first track on Touch
If anyone followed the bug on this, you migth have noticed that I had some problems lately. The root cause by a problem with the database , I have to do an *analyse;* with an sqlite3 tool to fix it. SBS is suposed to do this every scan but it failed for some reason in 7.6 beta . Now it's working again. Database access was very ineficient before i fixed the problem. The developers help me finding the cure for the problem thankyou, hopefully they have in the process learned that it does happen to users in the feild, so it was not a complete waste of their time. Clear and rescan everything did not help, but maybe a complete cache delete had fixed it ? who knows, if sbs had to build a new dB from scratch. The bug may not be the there in the latest 7.6 beta can very well be that an earlier version borked the dB for me. Now i get 10% cpu spikes instead of 100% when starting an album and cued up ca 1400 24bit tracks in one playlist and it worked. A reminder that running 7.6 beta can get you unusual problems for example a small risk of getting a broken dB . 7.6 is very nice but it is beta so anything can happen. So if any other running 7.6 beta with SQLite and find that things are unusually slow, there may be an explanation . Note that the db actually works with this failure, but is very very slow. But you may not notice at all if you use a powerfull PC for the server -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) PLEASE FIX BUG 112 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83662 ___ beta mailing list beta@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
