Re: [Bf-committers] proposal: OpenGL cleanup in master
Very good idea but some questions: The point to write in a master branch is to get a pretty sure integration and good testing. Couldn't this happen in the 2.8 branch if this one get's also a buildbot entry? 2.77 will most certainly be a long term release, I think it's better to let the whole current community profit from it. I for example program in the train on my way to work with an old eeePC with atom processor. Can't do any 3D work on it, but it's more than enough to program python addons. If we are going to move to another OpenGL Version, why not take 4.4? All 7 years (in 2016 for 2.77) old graphic card support it (AMD and Nvidia at least) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI-Radeon-HD-5000-Serie and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia-Geforce-400-Serie. I think 7 years old is good enough as it will most certainly stay like that for the whole 2.8 cycle so in the end, it will support 9 years old cards. 4 years old Intel integrated cards all support 4.0 on windows, 4.1 on OS X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units. 3.3 on Linux but maybe ask the community how many people will have a more than 4 years old integrated Intel GPU on exclusively Linux (no dual boot) in 2016? It would be sad to loose potential for 10 casual users who will most certainly be able to do everything they want with 2.77. Regards Mat Am 22/11/2015 um 03:11 schrieb Thomas Dinges: > I fully support this proposal, it's time to get work done and stop > worrying about ancient hardware. > > Am 22.11.2015 um 01:40 schrieb Mike Erwin: >> Cool, glad for the enthusiasm! >> >> It might affect a few users on Windows or Linux, but all Mac OS 10.5 and >> newer systems have GL 2.1 built in. Old low-end Macs might fall back to >> software rendering for certain features but won't throw an error or catch >> on fire. >> >> That set of Radeons Brecht listed support up to GL 3.3 so should all work >> in Blender 2.8 too! I'm not as familiar with nVidia's stuff. >> >> Mike Erwin >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire >> >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Antony Riakiotakis >> wrote: >> >>> Yes, let's do it for 2.77. We are supposed to be able to break >>> compatibility now since we are transitioning to 2.8. I know people are >>> reluctant to drop compatibility because of the flak from a few users >>> with old hardware but we won't be able to do anything if we keep >>> postponing changes here. >>> >>> I suggest we make official final decision tomorrow in meeting. I hope >>> there is no more time needed to consider things here, this has been >>> discussed again and again during the last year and most people agree >>> with the change. >>> >>> Then it's GHOST patch time and finally everyone can start refactoring >>> code with shaders for fancy UI and display stuff :). > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] proposal: OpenGL cleanup in master
I’m not much an OGL guy, but fully support the proposal as well, think past attempts have shown trying to keep at all cost compatibility with very old standards just end up making evolution to modern ones impossible… Having a nine years old version as ground mandatory basis sounds totally reasonable. And afaik, MESA software is at least 100% implemented for OGL 3.3? Le 22/11/2015 03:11, Thomas Dinges a écrit : > I fully support this proposal, it's time to get work done and stop > worrying about ancient hardware. > > Am 22.11.2015 um 01:40 schrieb Mike Erwin: >> Cool, glad for the enthusiasm! >> >> It might affect a few users on Windows or Linux, but all Mac OS 10.5 and >> newer systems have GL 2.1 built in. Old low-end Macs might fall back to >> software rendering for certain features but won't throw an error or catch >> on fire. >> >> That set of Radeons Brecht listed support up to GL 3.3 so should all work >> in Blender 2.8 too! I'm not as familiar with nVidia's stuff. >> >> Mike Erwin >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire >> >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Antony Riakiotakis >> wrote: >> >>> Yes, let's do it for 2.77. We are supposed to be able to break >>> compatibility now since we are transitioning to 2.8. I know people are >>> reluctant to drop compatibility because of the flak from a few users >>> with old hardware but we won't be able to do anything if we keep >>> postponing changes here. >>> >>> I suggest we make official final decision tomorrow in meeting. I hope >>> there is no more time needed to consider things here, this has been >>> discussed again and again during the last year and most people agree >>> with the change. >>> >>> Then it's GHOST patch time and finally everyone can start refactoring >>> code with shaders for fancy UI and display stuff :). > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] proposal: OpenGL cleanup in master
Mesa supports opengl 3.3 in software. -> http://mesamatrix.net/ I think we should even consider just taking SandyBridge intel as baseline -> http://www.g-truc.net/post-0729.html. I agree with Brechts reasoning here and think we should do this now and in master. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Bastien Montagne wrote: > I’m not much an OGL guy, but fully support the proposal as well, think > past attempts have shown trying to keep at all cost compatibility with > very old standards just end up making evolution to modern ones > impossible… Having a nine years old version as ground mandatory basis > sounds totally reasonable. And afaik, MESA software is at least 100% > implemented for OGL 3.3? > > Le 22/11/2015 03:11, Thomas Dinges a écrit : > > I fully support this proposal, it's time to get work done and stop > > worrying about ancient hardware. > > > > Am 22.11.2015 um 01:40 schrieb Mike Erwin: > >> Cool, glad for the enthusiasm! > >> > >> It might affect a few users on Windows or Linux, but all Mac OS 10.5 and > >> newer systems have GL 2.1 built in. Old low-end Macs might fall back to > >> software rendering for certain features but won't throw an error or > catch > >> on fire. > >> > >> That set of Radeons Brecht listed support up to GL 3.3 so should all > work > >> in Blender 2.8 too! I'm not as familiar with nVidia's stuff. > >> > >> Mike Erwin > >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Antony Riakiotakis > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, let's do it for 2.77. We are supposed to be able to break > >>> compatibility now since we are transitioning to 2.8. I know people are > >>> reluctant to drop compatibility because of the flak from a few users > >>> with old hardware but we won't be able to do anything if we keep > >>> postponing changes here. > >>> > >>> I suggest we make official final decision tomorrow in meeting. I hope > >>> there is no more time needed to consider things here, this has been > >>> discussed again and again during the last year and most people agree > >>> with the change. > >>> > >>> Then it's GHOST patch time and finally everyone can start refactoring > >>> code with shaders for fancy UI and display stuff :). > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] proposal: OpenGL cleanup in master
Hi, Mike: good plan, thanks you're having the time and energy to tackle it. My main concern is that it shouldn't lead to a non-functional Blender. If that's the case, I rather see it happening in a short lived branch, just to be sure we don't frustrate people who depend on using the last version of Blender. There is other development going on too. Any estimate on how much work it is, and/or how to get others to help? Brecht: good list. A long while ago we've stated a guideline that "Blender should work on decent quality hardware you purchased new 5 years ago." With Intel fixing up their graphics chips in 2010 we're now safe to move on :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A - 1018AD Amsterdam - The Netherlands > On 21 Nov, 2015, at 22:16, Brecht Van Lommel > wrote: > > As I understand it, with OpenGL 2.1 the minimum requirements would be > effectively: > > * NVidia Geforce FX, Gerforce 6 and newer (released in 2003) > * AMD Radeon R600+, Radeon HD, and newer (released in 2006) > * Intel HD graphics or newer (released in 2010), some older cards > might still work on OS X and Linux > > Mainly users with older Intel GMA graphics would be affected. That > sounds reasonable to me but we are raising the hardware bar for > Blender 2.77 then, right? > > I totally support doing this in master. Doing OpenGL refactoring in > big branches hasn't worked well in the past, better to do it > incrementally. I can help with some refactoring and code review. > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Antony Riakiotakis wrote: >> You have my sword. And my axe. And my bow. >> I could trickle some free time on this, though not terribly much >> unfortunately. >> >> I definitely vote to do this on master/or current full dev branch (2.8 >> branch?) when that changes. The previous approach of dumping chunks of >> code in a big branch that will code-rot as soon as time or energy >> dries out just does not work for such a big project in my opinion. We >> need an approach that will let us work on this incrementally. >> >> We should communicate well, with screams, on the street to >> unsuspecting pedestrians and on the net to unsuspecting surfers, posts >> on blender.org, in the manual and with ugly message boxes with bright >> flashing red letters (OK, I admit that might be pushing it a little >> bit), especially for the windows and mac people, that system >> requirements are now raised to 2.1, and add the relevant checks and >> warnings in GHOST to ensure that people who try to use blender without >> it, cannot do so anymore. Current approach on Windows is just spawning >> a warning messagebox. We can leave that in but also quit blender in >> case it does not meet our requirements, and also expand to a similar >> approach for other OSs. >> >> On 21/11/2015, Mike Erwin wrote: >>> Hi devs, >>> >>> I was responding to something in bf-viewport but could use a wider set of >>> people to either agree or put a stop to this madness before it's too late. >>> :) >>> >>> I'd like to start basic GL cleanup in master ASAP. By this I mean set GL >>> 2.1 as a baseline and convert all code that uses obsolete extensions to the >>> functions/enums provided by GL itself. Much of this is simply deleting ARB >>> or EXT, and removing checks for GL features that are guaranteed in 2.1. No >>> new features, no major rewriting, just get the code up to spec and ready to >>> branch for the bigger GL 3.2 upgrade. >>> >>> Staged migration of OpenGL: >>> now --> GL 2.1 (all platforms, soon) >>> --> 3.2 compatibility profile (Windows & Linux) >>> --> 3.2 core profile (all platforms, in time for Blender 2.8) >>> >>> That final transition will be the most work. The first transition can be >>> done NOW and doesn't involve any design really -- just a plan of what to >>> remove/convert. Dropping support for GL 1.4, 1.5 and 2.0 in one swoop will >>> let us clean up a lot of legacy crap without raising the hardware bar. >>> >>> Is anyone opposed to this? Anyone eager to help? >>> >>> Mike Erwin >>> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire >>> ___ >>> Bf-committers mailing list >>> Bf-committers@blender.org >>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>> >> ___ >> Bf-committers mailing list >> Bf-committers@blender.org >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
[Bf-committers] Blender developers meeting notes - November 22. 2015
Hi all, Here are the notes from today's meeting in irc.freenode.net #blendercoders 1) Blender 2.77 targets - Meeting agrees on Mike Erwin's proposal to upgrade Blender to OpenGL 2.1 minimal. This is an OpenGL release from 2006 and widely in use nowadays. Benefits are: having cleaner code (less exception handling), getting ready for more OpenGL upgrades, and allowing to default use newer and much faster OpenGL methods. Blender 2.77 will get a function to notify users if their system is not supporting OpenGL 2.1. For hardware it means: * NVidia Geforce FX, Geforce 6 and newer (released in 2003) * AMD Radeon R600+, Radeon HD, and newer (released in 2006) * Intel HD graphics or newer (released in 2010), some older cards might still work on OS X and Linux - Blender Institute will make systems available for devs to test remotely. - Work will happen in git master - for as much as possible. The bigger commits will be reviewed first on developer.blender.org - Mike Erwin will be in the lead for this project, a lot of people offered help to be standby. Main coordination will be here and in our IRC channel. 2) Other projects - Julian Eisel proposed to add an official 2.8 branch with C99 support. Meeting agreed on moving to C99 for master instead. Brecht van Lommel will make a patch for review. - Meeting agrees to not make official 2.8 branch(es) until we're done with the OpenGL migration, and until we have a clear plan for what will happen in the branch(es) and who will work on it. Laters, -Ton- Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A - 1018AD Amsterdam - The Netherlands ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] proposal: OpenGL cleanup in master
Thanks everyone for your enthusiastic support of this! Rules of engagement: 0) Don't do anything that breaks Blender! 1) Assume OpenGL 2.1 and GLSL 1.2 are fully available. We'll check the GL version once at startup. 2) Remove use of old APIs and runtime checks for things that are definitely there. Remove fallbacks if the "newer" version does the same thing only better. 3) For now let's not go nuts rewriting things like immediate mode or matrix stacks. Those will come soon enough! If you're already working on that sort of thing please continue, it's just not within the scope of the near-term cleanup effort. 4) Please prefix all commit messages with "OpenGL: ..." so they're easier to track and review. Here's an example commit of simple changes: https://developer.blender.org/rB4310a76b6043 And an example diff for a bigger change that should be reviewed first: https://developer.blender.org/D1632 What is safe to remove? Wikipedia has a pretty good list of which extensions were absorbed (or made obsolete) by certain versions of OpenGL. Anything 2.1 or below is a target. Anything 3.0 or above needs to keep using the extension form! That list is incomplete so if you find an extension not listed, research it yourself and discuss here and/or #blendercoders IRC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL Building and running on Mac is a good way to catch any use of post-2.1 features. Happy coding! Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
[Bf-committers] Updated requirements for Blender
Hi, I updated the requirements page on blender.org: http://www.blender.org/download/requirements/ * OpenGL 2.1 is now specified as the required minimum. * Windows XP is not working anymore and therefore removed from the list of supported platforms. (see https://developer.blender.org/T46843). We already put too much effort into keeping this work (much further than other software), now it's finally time to say goodbye. These requirements are valid for current Buildbot and upcoming 2.77, so if anyone thinks I should add a "OGL 1.4 + XP still work with current 2.76 release" please tell me. I don't think it's needed though. Best regards, Thomas ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Updated requirements for Blender
On second thought, added a info for current stable release: "(Note: These requirements are valid for the upcoming Blender 2.77 and the Buildbot. Blender 2.76 still supports Windows XP and OpenGL 1.4 graphics cards.)" Am 22.11.2015 um 22:54 schrieb Thomas Dinges: > Hi, > I updated the requirements page on blender.org: > http://www.blender.org/download/requirements/ > > * OpenGL 2.1 is now specified as the required minimum. > * Windows XP is not working anymore and therefore removed from the list > of supported platforms. (see https://developer.blender.org/T46843). > We already put too much effort into keeping this work (much further than > other software), now it's finally time to say goodbye. > > These requirements are valid for current Buildbot and upcoming 2.77, > so if anyone thinks I should add a "OGL 1.4 + XP still work with current > 2.76 release" please tell me. I don't think it's needed though. > > Best regards, > Thomas > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Updated requirements for Blender
Their is a not below the windows downloads about MS- Windows XP that should be removed. http://www.blender.org/download/ On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Thomas Dinges wrote: > On second thought, added a info for current stable release: > "(Note: These requirements are valid for the upcoming Blender 2.77 and > the Buildbot. Blender 2.76 still supports Windows XP and OpenGL 1.4 > graphics cards.)" > > Am 22.11.2015 um 22:54 schrieb Thomas Dinges: > > Hi, > > I updated the requirements page on blender.org: > > http://www.blender.org/download/requirements/ > > > > * OpenGL 2.1 is now specified as the required minimum. > > * Windows XP is not working anymore and therefore removed from the list > > of supported platforms. (see https://developer.blender.org/T46843). > > We already put too much effort into keeping this work (much further than > > other software), now it's finally time to say goodbye. > > > > These requirements are valid for current Buildbot and upcoming 2.77, > > so if anyone thinks I should add a "OGL 1.4 + XP still work with current > > 2.76 release" please tell me. I don't think it's needed though. > > > > Best regards, > > Thomas > > ___ > > Bf-committers mailing list > > Bf-committers@blender.org > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Updated requirements for Blender
Hi Thomas, For the Mac requirements OS 10.6 should* work now and for the rest of the Blender 2.7x line. Blender 2.8 will require OS 10.7 but let's hope those people have upgraded to 10.8 or 10.9 by now, for their sake. -- Mike *should means GHOST doesn't use newer APIs last time I checked. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
