Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Mike Erwin]

Realized something today:
Increasing Blender 2.8's system requirements to Mac OS 10.9 lets us target
OpenGL 3.3 instead of 3.2! Mac OS 10.7 & 10.8 were the only reasons to stay
at 3.2. Hardware (GPU) requirements stay exactly the same.

What does 3.3 offer over 3.2? (* = exciting, fits into our plans)
* instanced arrays
* more efficient occlusion queries
* 10_10_10_2 vertex attributes (perfect for normals)
- 10_10_10_2 textures
- sampler objects

Complete list here:
https://www.opengl.org/wiki/History_of_OpenGL#OpenGL_3.3_.282010.29

The differences between 3.2 and 3.3 are not major, but setting our minimum
to 3.3 means we can guarantee these features will be there at runtime. No
need for extension checks or fallbacks.

Let's bump OpenGL to 3.3 and GLSL to #version 330.
Unless someone objects, I'll update the development docs & tasks & code to
reflect this.


Mike Erwin
musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Jens Verwiebe  wrote:
>
> Just FYI: Older macs can run 10.9/10/11 too jst with the bootloader trick.
>
> It warps 64 bit efi calls to 32bit efi in for example MacPro 1.1.
>
> I have exaclty done this on an 1.1 from 2006 running Yosemite ( 10.11 )
now.
>
> A demon assures consecutive updates do not ruin the bootloader exchange.
>
> Its very easy to use, see Mac Rumors forums.
>
> Jens
>
>
> Am 08.10.2016 um 16:02 schrieb Brecht Van Lommel:
> > Ok, let's do macOS 10.9 minimum then.
> >
> > I'm about ready to commit the libraries, if anyone likes to review see
> > here. Otherwise I'll just go ahead and commit things in the next few
> > days.
> > https://developer.blender.org/D2283
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Mike Erwin 
wrote:
> >> Ok, I've had a chance to read your points and dig up the hardware
facts.
> >>
> >> I was concerned about the people that are stuck on 10.7 because their
> >> computer can't support 10.8, and didn't want us to leave them behind
> >> without a very good reason. Other people/projects/companies abandoning
it
> >> are not good reasons. But...
> >>
> >> The only Mac than could run Blender 2.8 but not OS 10.8 is the first
Mac
> >> Pro (Aug 2006 - Jan 2008), and only with an upgraded GPU. iMacs,
MacBooks
> >> Pro, everything else of that era is stuck with an old GPU and won't be
> >> supported anyway.
> >>
> >> So now we know exactly who we'll be disappointing! Mac Pro owners
(early
> >> adopter or second-hand) that don't have a newer Mac to run Blender on.
> >> Seems like a very small segment...
> >>
> >> Any newer Mac running 10.6.8 or later can upgrade to 10.9 free of
charge.
> >> Nobody is "stuck" on 10.8 by hardware. They might choose to run 10.8 or
> >> (god forbid) 10.7 but we have no obligation to support their choice.
> >>
> >> After gathering these facts I am also in favor of making Mac OS 10.9
the
> >> new minimum.
> >>
> >> Mike Erwin
> >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Martijn Berger <
martijn.ber...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think 10.6 was special in the sense that a significant number of
people
> >>> lingered on that version.
> >>> 10.9 and higher have been free upgrades and that seems to have moved a
> >>> significant number of people over.
> >>> Last time i checked our download stats 10.6 had more users then 10.7
and
> >>> 10.8 combined.
> >>>
> >>> Taking that into account I would be in favor of using 10.9 as minimal
> >>> version.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Brecht Van Lommel <
> >>> brechtvanlom...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>>
>  Xcode 8 is currently showing this warning. So it's not clear how long
>  Apple will even officially support building for 10.8.
> 
>  clang: warning: libstdc++ is deprecated; move to libc++ with a
minimum
>  deployment target of OS X 10.9
> 
>  Apple support for 10.9 ended last month, 10.8 a year before that, so
>  those are not even getting security updates anymore. Firefox and
>  Chrome have 10.9 as minimum requirement, and I think the same or
>  higher is required for a lot of other major software. Blender 2.8
>  would be released a year or more from now, so we would be the
>  exception in still supporting 10.7.
> 
>  The one issue I personally found with 10.7 was an SDK bug that makes
>  building Python 3.5 fail. I tried to solve it for a few hours but
>  didn't find a solution yet. It's probably not a showstopper but if we
>  decide to use 10.8 or higher I won't spend more time trying to fix
it.
> 
>  I don't know of any other serious issues, though inevitably we'd
>  encounter some in the future. Personally I wouldn't want to spend
time
>  debugging OpenGL issues on e.g. 10.7 or 10.8, but maybe you're up for
>  it :)
> 
> 
>  On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mike Erwin 
>  wrote:
> > Bringing this 

Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Jens Verwiebe]

Just FYI: Older macs can run 10.9/10/11 too jst with the bootloader trick.

It warps 64 bit efi calls to 32bit efi in for example MacPro 1.1.

I have exaclty done this on an 1.1 from 2006 running Yosemite ( 10.11 ) now.

A demon assures consecutive updates do not ruin the bootloader exchange.

Its very easy to use, see Mac Rumors forums.

Jens


Am 08.10.2016 um 16:02 schrieb Brecht Van Lommel:
> Ok, let's do macOS 10.9 minimum then.
>
> I'm about ready to commit the libraries, if anyone likes to review see
> here. Otherwise I'll just go ahead and commit things in the next few
> days.
> https://developer.blender.org/D2283
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Mike Erwin  wrote:
>> Ok, I've had a chance to read your points and dig up the hardware facts.
>>
>> I was concerned about the people that are stuck on 10.7 because their
>> computer can't support 10.8, and didn't want us to leave them behind
>> without a very good reason. Other people/projects/companies abandoning it
>> are not good reasons. But...
>>
>> The only Mac than could run Blender 2.8 but not OS 10.8 is the first Mac
>> Pro (Aug 2006 - Jan 2008), and only with an upgraded GPU. iMacs, MacBooks
>> Pro, everything else of that era is stuck with an old GPU and won't be
>> supported anyway.
>>
>> So now we know exactly who we'll be disappointing! Mac Pro owners (early
>> adopter or second-hand) that don't have a newer Mac to run Blender on.
>> Seems like a very small segment...
>>
>> Any newer Mac running 10.6.8 or later can upgrade to 10.9 free of charge.
>> Nobody is "stuck" on 10.8 by hardware. They might choose to run 10.8 or
>> (god forbid) 10.7 but we have no obligation to support their choice.
>>
>> After gathering these facts I am also in favor of making Mac OS 10.9 the
>> new minimum.
>>
>> Mike Erwin
>> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Martijn Berger 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think 10.6 was special in the sense that a significant number of people
>>> lingered on that version.
>>> 10.9 and higher have been free upgrades and that seems to have moved a
>>> significant number of people over.
>>> Last time i checked our download stats 10.6 had more users then 10.7 and
>>> 10.8 combined.
>>>
>>> Taking that into account I would be in favor of using 10.9 as minimal
>>> version.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Brecht Van Lommel <
>>> brechtvanlom...@pandora.be> wrote:
>>>
 Xcode 8 is currently showing this warning. So it's not clear how long
 Apple will even officially support building for 10.8.

 clang: warning: libstdc++ is deprecated; move to libc++ with a minimum
 deployment target of OS X 10.9

 Apple support for 10.9 ended last month, 10.8 a year before that, so
 those are not even getting security updates anymore. Firefox and
 Chrome have 10.9 as minimum requirement, and I think the same or
 higher is required for a lot of other major software. Blender 2.8
 would be released a year or more from now, so we would be the
 exception in still supporting 10.7.

 The one issue I personally found with 10.7 was an SDK bug that makes
 building Python 3.5 fail. I tried to solve it for a few hours but
 didn't find a solution yet. It's probably not a showstopper but if we
 decide to use 10.8 or higher I won't spend more time trying to fix it.

 I don't know of any other serious issues, though inevitably we'd
 encounter some in the future. Personally I wouldn't want to spend time
 debugging OpenGL issues on e.g. 10.7 or 10.8, but maybe you're up for
 it :)


 On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mike Erwin 
 wrote:
> Bringing this back up since it was mentioned in the C++11 libs
 discussion.
> Why are some people in favor of Mac OS 10.8 as a minimum requirement? I
> agree that 10.7 sucks from a usability perspective, but I'm sure you
>>> have
> better reasons.
>
> It would help the discussion to have a list of Macs that could run
 Blender
> 2.8 (decent GPU) but can't run OS 10.8.
>
> -- Mike
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mike Erwin  wrote:
>
>> Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple
>>> implemented
 GL
>> 3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line
>>> can
>> still support Snow Leopard.
>>
>> Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?
>>
>> OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
>> ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
>> Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older
 method.
>> I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
>> multiple monitor handling.
>>
>> So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
>> opportunity 

Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Brecht Van Lommel]

Ok, let's do macOS 10.9 minimum then.

I'm about ready to commit the libraries, if anyone likes to review see
here. Otherwise I'll just go ahead and commit things in the next few
days.
https://developer.blender.org/D2283

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Mike Erwin  wrote:
> Ok, I've had a chance to read your points and dig up the hardware facts.
>
> I was concerned about the people that are stuck on 10.7 because their
> computer can't support 10.8, and didn't want us to leave them behind
> without a very good reason. Other people/projects/companies abandoning it
> are not good reasons. But...
>
> The only Mac than could run Blender 2.8 but not OS 10.8 is the first Mac
> Pro (Aug 2006 - Jan 2008), and only with an upgraded GPU. iMacs, MacBooks
> Pro, everything else of that era is stuck with an old GPU and won't be
> supported anyway.
>
> So now we know exactly who we'll be disappointing! Mac Pro owners (early
> adopter or second-hand) that don't have a newer Mac to run Blender on.
> Seems like a very small segment...
>
> Any newer Mac running 10.6.8 or later can upgrade to 10.9 free of charge.
> Nobody is "stuck" on 10.8 by hardware. They might choose to run 10.8 or
> (god forbid) 10.7 but we have no obligation to support their choice.
>
> After gathering these facts I am also in favor of making Mac OS 10.9 the
> new minimum.
>
> Mike Erwin
> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Martijn Berger 
> wrote:
>
>> I think 10.6 was special in the sense that a significant number of people
>> lingered on that version.
>> 10.9 and higher have been free upgrades and that seems to have moved a
>> significant number of people over.
>> Last time i checked our download stats 10.6 had more users then 10.7 and
>> 10.8 combined.
>>
>> Taking that into account I would be in favor of using 10.9 as minimal
>> version.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Brecht Van Lommel <
>> brechtvanlom...@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>> > Xcode 8 is currently showing this warning. So it's not clear how long
>> > Apple will even officially support building for 10.8.
>> >
>> > clang: warning: libstdc++ is deprecated; move to libc++ with a minimum
>> > deployment target of OS X 10.9
>> >
>> > Apple support for 10.9 ended last month, 10.8 a year before that, so
>> > those are not even getting security updates anymore. Firefox and
>> > Chrome have 10.9 as minimum requirement, and I think the same or
>> > higher is required for a lot of other major software. Blender 2.8
>> > would be released a year or more from now, so we would be the
>> > exception in still supporting 10.7.
>> >
>> > The one issue I personally found with 10.7 was an SDK bug that makes
>> > building Python 3.5 fail. I tried to solve it for a few hours but
>> > didn't find a solution yet. It's probably not a showstopper but if we
>> > decide to use 10.8 or higher I won't spend more time trying to fix it.
>> >
>> > I don't know of any other serious issues, though inevitably we'd
>> > encounter some in the future. Personally I wouldn't want to spend time
>> > debugging OpenGL issues on e.g. 10.7 or 10.8, but maybe you're up for
>> > it :)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mike Erwin 
>> > wrote:
>> > > Bringing this back up since it was mentioned in the C++11 libs
>> > discussion.
>> > >
>> > > Why are some people in favor of Mac OS 10.8 as a minimum requirement? I
>> > > agree that 10.7 sucks from a usability perspective, but I'm sure you
>> have
>> > > better reasons.
>> > >
>> > > It would help the discussion to have a list of Macs that could run
>> > Blender
>> > > 2.8 (decent GPU) but can't run OS 10.8.
>> > >
>> > > -- Mike
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mike Erwin > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple
>> implemented
>> > GL
>> > >> 3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line
>> can
>> > >> still support Snow Leopard.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?
>> > >>
>> > >> OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
>> > >> ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
>> > >> Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older
>> > method.
>> > >> I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
>> > >> multiple monitor handling.
>> > >>
>> > >> So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
>> > >> opportunity to clean up some of the crusty old workarounds. Declare
>> > >> MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED = 1070 and revisit everywhere this is
>> > >> checked.
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm not sure if anyone is actively working on GHOST or other
>> > Mac-specific
>> > >> stuff, but wanted to start this conversation early.
>> > >>
>> > >> Mike Erwin
>> > >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>> > >>
>> > > 

Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Martijn Berger]

I think 10.6 was special in the sense that a significant number of people
lingered on that version.
10.9 and higher have been free upgrades and that seems to have moved a
significant number of people over.
Last time i checked our download stats 10.6 had more users then 10.7 and
10.8 combined.

Taking that into account I would be in favor of using 10.9 as minimal
version.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Brecht Van Lommel <
brechtvanlom...@pandora.be> wrote:

> Xcode 8 is currently showing this warning. So it's not clear how long
> Apple will even officially support building for 10.8.
>
> clang: warning: libstdc++ is deprecated; move to libc++ with a minimum
> deployment target of OS X 10.9
>
> Apple support for 10.9 ended last month, 10.8 a year before that, so
> those are not even getting security updates anymore. Firefox and
> Chrome have 10.9 as minimum requirement, and I think the same or
> higher is required for a lot of other major software. Blender 2.8
> would be released a year or more from now, so we would be the
> exception in still supporting 10.7.
>
> The one issue I personally found with 10.7 was an SDK bug that makes
> building Python 3.5 fail. I tried to solve it for a few hours but
> didn't find a solution yet. It's probably not a showstopper but if we
> decide to use 10.8 or higher I won't spend more time trying to fix it.
>
> I don't know of any other serious issues, though inevitably we'd
> encounter some in the future. Personally I wouldn't want to spend time
> debugging OpenGL issues on e.g. 10.7 or 10.8, but maybe you're up for
> it :)
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mike Erwin 
> wrote:
> > Bringing this back up since it was mentioned in the C++11 libs
> discussion.
> >
> > Why are some people in favor of Mac OS 10.8 as a minimum requirement? I
> > agree that 10.7 sucks from a usability perspective, but I'm sure you have
> > better reasons.
> >
> > It would help the discussion to have a list of Macs that could run
> Blender
> > 2.8 (decent GPU) but can't run OS 10.8.
> >
> > -- Mike
> >
> > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mike Erwin 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple implemented
> GL
> >> 3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line can
> >> still support Snow Leopard.
> >>
> >> Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?
> >>
> >> OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
> >> ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
> >> Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older
> method.
> >> I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
> >> multiple monitor handling.
> >>
> >> So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
> >> opportunity to clean up some of the crusty old workarounds. Declare
> >> MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED = 1070 and revisit everywhere this is
> >> checked.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if anyone is actively working on GHOST or other
> Mac-specific
> >> stuff, but wanted to start this conversation early.
> >>
> >> Mike Erwin
> >> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
> >>
> > ___
> > Bf-committers mailing list
> > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
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Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Brecht Van Lommel]

Xcode 8 is currently showing this warning. So it's not clear how long
Apple will even officially support building for 10.8.

clang: warning: libstdc++ is deprecated; move to libc++ with a minimum
deployment target of OS X 10.9

Apple support for 10.9 ended last month, 10.8 a year before that, so
those are not even getting security updates anymore. Firefox and
Chrome have 10.9 as minimum requirement, and I think the same or
higher is required for a lot of other major software. Blender 2.8
would be released a year or more from now, so we would be the
exception in still supporting 10.7.

The one issue I personally found with 10.7 was an SDK bug that makes
building Python 3.5 fail. I tried to solve it for a few hours but
didn't find a solution yet. It's probably not a showstopper but if we
decide to use 10.8 or higher I won't spend more time trying to fix it.

I don't know of any other serious issues, though inevitably we'd
encounter some in the future. Personally I wouldn't want to spend time
debugging OpenGL issues on e.g. 10.7 or 10.8, but maybe you're up for
it :)


On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mike Erwin  wrote:
> Bringing this back up since it was mentioned in the C++11 libs discussion.
>
> Why are some people in favor of Mac OS 10.8 as a minimum requirement? I
> agree that 10.7 sucks from a usability perspective, but I'm sure you have
> better reasons.
>
> It would help the discussion to have a list of Macs that could run Blender
> 2.8 (decent GPU) but can't run OS 10.8.
>
> -- Mike
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mike Erwin 
> wrote:
>
>> Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple implemented GL
>> 3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line can
>> still support Snow Leopard.
>>
>> Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?
>>
>> OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
>> ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
>> Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older method.
>> I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
>> multiple monitor handling.
>>
>> So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
>> opportunity to clean up some of the crusty old workarounds. Declare
>> MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED = 1070 and revisit everywhere this is
>> checked.
>>
>> I'm not sure if anyone is actively working on GHOST or other Mac-specific
>> stuff, but wanted to start this conversation early.
>>
>> Mike Erwin
>> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>>
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
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Re: [Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Mike Erwin]

Bringing this back up since it was mentioned in the C++11 libs discussion.

Why are some people in favor of Mac OS 10.8 as a minimum requirement? I
agree that 10.7 sucks from a usability perspective, but I'm sure you have
better reasons.

It would help the discussion to have a list of Macs that could run Blender
2.8 (decent GPU) but can't run OS 10.8.

-- Mike

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mike Erwin 
wrote:

> Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple implemented GL
> 3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line can
> still support Snow Leopard.
>
> Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?
>
> OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
> ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
> Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older method.
> I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
> multiple monitor handling.
>
> So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
> opportunity to clean up some of the crusty old workarounds. Declare
> MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED = 1070 and revisit everywhere this is
> checked.
>
> I'm not sure if anyone is actively working on GHOST or other Mac-specific
> stuff, but wanted to start this conversation early.
>
> Mike Erwin
> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>
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[Bf-committers] Mac OS 10.7+ for Blender 2.8

[Mike Erwin]

Mac OS 10.6 "Snow Leopard" needs to be dropped, since Apple implemented GL
3.2 starting with OS 10.7 "Lion". The rest of the Blender 2.7x line can
still support Snow Leopard.

Now that we can assume OS 10.7 or later, what does that give us?

OpenGL 3.2 -- of course
ARC -- automatic reference counting, no more retain/release
Fullscreen mode -- already implemented, so we can remove the older method.
I see comments about this working better in 10.9 because of improved
multiple monitor handling.

So no huge features for us besides OpenGL. But this does give us an
opportunity to clean up some of the crusty old workarounds. Declare
MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED
= 1070 and revisit everywhere this is checked.

I'm not sure if anyone is actively working on GHOST or other Mac-specific
stuff, but wanted to start this conversation early.

Mike Erwin
musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
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