Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Hi, sorry if this is considered high-jacking the thread. What do you mean by no scopes in the compositor? You can use a viewer node and use the (fantastic :) scopes of the UV/image editor. What would you prefer? A scope node that display the scope directly in it's own UI in the node editor? That is very much possible and quite easy project for a c/c++ developer. I don't consider the scopes of the sequencer nice, I consider them horrible and horribly slow; they really should be ported to openGL and reuse the code of the image scopes. Back when I was working on this with Matt Ebb, the plan was to drop the sequencer dedicated viewer and use the UV image editor instead (like for compositor viewer nodes) so I did not spent time updating the sequencer scopes. But now the plan has changed ans sequencer viewer is here to stay :( I agree that the compositor is not the best place to do grading and I think the sequencer would be better. I also agree that the current state of the sequencer make this task cumbersome at best. So what is needed really in my opinion is a good redesign of the sequencer with grading in mind not only NLE. This is desperately needed for almost a decade but not a high priority target Xavier 2015-03-07 8:36 GMT-03:00 François T. francoistarl...@gmail.com: I would second Troy on that, if you are going for a node as simple as a vignette, try to make it as accurate as possible which can handle real AC and could do reverse vignette, and part of this is usually linked to the Lens model. Going for a simple node which only do a mask or compute the length of a vector which you could colorize is a bit overkill I presume. Then only go with an addon and you will be fine. Your needs are far from from having a magic bullet suite ;). Yes you will loose a bit in memory going from one node to another, but your group is rather pretty simple. Ton is also right, and it does open a real question about probably a missing piece in Blender which is the Grading part. Even though we get easily attract to the compositor to do grading, it does not have the best design to do so. It does lacks of real time scopes and only works on a per-shot bases. The tile base rendering is not very good also for this since it does makes the feedback slower. (cf davinci) While the sequencer in another hand can work in the sequence context and have nice scopes (which could be improved), it probably miss all the flexibility of the compositor system also. So designing a grading space in Blender is not such a crazy idea at a design stage. It's a huge project though. 2015-03-05 18:04 GMT+01:00 Akash Hamirwasia akash.hamirwa...@gmail.com: Hi again! Look if a Vignette node which I have created can be added by default in Blender, it can be pretty helpful to everyone. Also there are no presets in Node groups of Blender's compositor. If these presets for Blender can be made default, then later it would be easy to add more nodes, making it easier for more complex tasks in Blender. Thanks, Akash ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- François Tarlier www.francois-tarlier.com www.linkedin.com/in/francoistarlier ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
I would second Troy on that, if you are going for a node as simple as a vignette, try to make it as accurate as possible which can handle real AC and could do reverse vignette, and part of this is usually linked to the Lens model. Going for a simple node which only do a mask or compute the length of a vector which you could colorize is a bit overkill I presume. Then only go with an addon and you will be fine. Your needs are far from from having a magic bullet suite ;). Yes you will loose a bit in memory going from one node to another, but your group is rather pretty simple. Ton is also right, and it does open a real question about probably a missing piece in Blender which is the Grading part. Even though we get easily attract to the compositor to do grading, it does not have the best design to do so. It does lacks of real time scopes and only works on a per-shot bases. The tile base rendering is not very good also for this since it does makes the feedback slower. (cf davinci) While the sequencer in another hand can work in the sequence context and have nice scopes (which could be improved), it probably miss all the flexibility of the compositor system also. So designing a grading space in Blender is not such a crazy idea at a design stage. It's a huge project though. 2015-03-05 18:04 GMT+01:00 Akash Hamirwasia akash.hamirwa...@gmail.com: Hi again! Look if a Vignette node which I have created can be added by default in Blender, it can be pretty helpful to everyone. Also there are no presets in Node groups of Blender's compositor. If these presets for Blender can be made default, then later it would be easy to add more nodes, making it easier for more complex tasks in Blender. Thanks, Akash ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- François Tarlier www.francois-tarlier.com www.linkedin.com/in/francoistarlier ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Sorry Xavier, I didn't mean it that way. I was more referring to the workflow of having realtime feedback of the scopes in the sequencer compare to the compositor rather than the scope code itself. Like Troy says, it more the underlying design of both compositor and Sequencer where one is meant to play in realtime which is better suited to do Grading in my opinion my explanation was really bad, sorry again about that :) 2015-03-07 14:29 GMT+01:00 Xavier Thomas xavier.thomas.1...@gmail.com: Hi, sorry if this is considered high-jacking the thread. What do you mean by no scopes in the compositor? You can use a viewer node and use the (fantastic :) scopes of the UV/image editor. What would you prefer? A scope node that display the scope directly in it's own UI in the node editor? That is very much possible and quite easy project for a c/c++ developer. I don't consider the scopes of the sequencer nice, I consider them horrible and horribly slow; they really should be ported to openGL and reuse the code of the image scopes. Back when I was working on this with Matt Ebb, the plan was to drop the sequencer dedicated viewer and use the UV image editor instead (like for compositor viewer nodes) so I did not spent time updating the sequencer scopes. But now the plan has changed ans sequencer viewer is here to stay :( I agree that the compositor is not the best place to do grading and I think the sequencer would be better. I also agree that the current state of the sequencer make this task cumbersome at best. So what is needed really in my opinion is a good redesign of the sequencer with grading in mind not only NLE. This is desperately needed for almost a decade but not a high priority target Xavier 2015-03-07 8:36 GMT-03:00 François T. francoistarl...@gmail.com: I would second Troy on that, if you are going for a node as simple as a vignette, try to make it as accurate as possible which can handle real AC and could do reverse vignette, and part of this is usually linked to the Lens model. Going for a simple node which only do a mask or compute the length of a vector which you could colorize is a bit overkill I presume. Then only go with an addon and you will be fine. Your needs are far from from having a magic bullet suite ;). Yes you will loose a bit in memory going from one node to another, but your group is rather pretty simple. Ton is also right, and it does open a real question about probably a missing piece in Blender which is the Grading part. Even though we get easily attract to the compositor to do grading, it does not have the best design to do so. It does lacks of real time scopes and only works on a per-shot bases. The tile base rendering is not very good also for this since it does makes the feedback slower. (cf davinci) While the sequencer in another hand can work in the sequence context and have nice scopes (which could be improved), it probably miss all the flexibility of the compositor system also. So designing a grading space in Blender is not such a crazy idea at a design stage. It's a huge project though. 2015-03-05 18:04 GMT+01:00 Akash Hamirwasia akash.hamirwa...@gmail.com : Hi again! Look if a Vignette node which I have created can be added by default in Blender, it can be pretty helpful to everyone. Also there are no presets in Node groups of Blender's compositor. If these presets for Blender can be made default, then later it would be easy to add more nodes, making it easier for more complex tasks in Blender. Thanks, Akash ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- François Tarlier www.francois-tarlier.com www.linkedin.com/in/francoistarlier ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- François Tarlier www.francois-tarlier.com www.linkedin.com/in/francoistarlier ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Hi, The compositor was designed for a frame workflow, for rendering 3d, for combining vfx and footage into a shot. That is being done in linear color, and it's advised to keep its file output as pure as possible (floating point colors with high dynamic range). These shots then get combined to a final edit and get a final color grade, exported to a specific color space. That is a good stage to add vignettes as well. Vignettes really should be done in display-space. That is what the Redgiant link illustrates - it's a grader editor. Shots are the input, a film is the output. So - if you talk about easier vignette support, we could also look at improving the sequencer to be a much more advanced and realtime grading system. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A - 1018AD Amsterdam - The Netherlands On 5 Mar, 2015, at 13:10, Akash Hamirwasia wrote: Hello! I have found out that creating vignettes in Blender's compositor can take time and other people agree with it. Also if there is a Vignette node, it will make people be focused on compositing rather than spending their time in creating a Vignette. Also I had created a video on it which you can watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT3MnW8lV-slist=UUr1WiR4fh3LcI7bODbMuaYA Also here are the survey results: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_-aTJLT2Z3bzBweUlkbU00T3FUTHhoaGgwWTdr/edit?usp=docslist_api https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_-bmE4QlI2WWdueHJZZkhvek1nX2NKSXFHNER3/edit?usp=docslist_api Hope you accept and reply to my request.. Thanks, Akash Hamirwasia blenderskool.webs.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Hi again! Look if a Vignette node which I have created can be added by default in Blender, it can be pretty helpful to everyone. Also there are no presets in Node groups of Blender's compositor. If these presets for Blender can be made default, then later it would be easy to add more nodes, making it easier for more complex tasks in Blender. Thanks, Akash ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Multiplication isn't exactly complex. With respect, TJS On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 5:25 AM Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: True, but is it out of the question that some of the node groups could have efficiencies added by coding them more atomically? On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:07 AM Kévin Dietrich kevin.dietr...@mailoo.org wrote: Le 2015-03-05 14:00, Johnny Matthews a écrit : David, I'm not sure your tone here is helpful. Also to take a stab at where would the devs stop? Take a look at http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ [1] That would be the equivalent to having a node groups library, which a vignette effect can be part of. This is something that a lot of users have been doing for a long time. Links: -- [1] http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Oh you burned me so bad there. On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 7:47 AM Troy Sobotka troy.sobo...@gmail.com wrote: Multiplication isn't exactly complex. With respect, TJS On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 5:25 AM Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: True, but is it out of the question that some of the node groups could have efficiencies added by coding them more atomically? On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:07 AM Kévin Dietrich kevin.dietr...@mailoo.org wrote: Le 2015-03-05 14:00, Johnny Matthews a écrit : David, I'm not sure your tone here is helpful. Also to take a stab at where would the devs stop? Take a look at http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ [1] That would be the equivalent to having a node groups library, which a vignette effect can be part of. This is something that a lot of users have been doing for a long time. Links: -- [1] http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Hi guys, We also have to consider: more nodes = more code = more bugs and less optmization. Speeding up (if possible) the blur, mix and ellipse mask nodes would be a better improvement for vignettes IMHO. Cheers, 2015-03-05 11:55 GMT-03:00 Troy Sobotka troy.sobo...@gmail.com: On Mar 5, 2015 6:13 AM, Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: Oh you burned me so bad there. It wasn't intended as a burn, and I regret that you saw it as such. The idea that a multiplication isn't complex was directed at the suggestion that there would be “efficiencies” if coded at a more “atomic” level; a node that merely performs a multiplication would not see such gains. I am also curious why you discredited Mr. McSween's line of reasoning above? If one examines industry leading tools such as Nuke, one will not find a multiplication blur vignette node. While this might seem a curious omission in an industrial imaging application, we can wonder if the vignette node: A) Does the node model the dispersion and chromatic aberration characteristics of a lens near the periphery? B) Does the node, when dealing with A above, manage variable primary reference spaces correctly? C) Does the node offer compression adaption for anamorphic or other non-spherical lens representations? D) Does the node offer variable density of the light occlusion? E) Does the node adapt to the variable distortions of a lens model? Most of these facets are unique and complex, and as such, would likely be modeled into a more granular set of nodes, which would be welcome I am certain. The nuances of each of these would require an understanding of optics to model correctly, and designed to some of the standards already relevant for a visual effects workflow. Hopefully the depth of your knowledge can cover some of the above issues and a more granular set of nodes is plausible. With respect, TJS ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
David, I'm not sure your tone here is helpful. Also to take a stab at where would the devs stop? Take a look at http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:14 AM David McSween 3pointe...@gmail.com wrote: Really its not that hard to make with 2 or three nodes. If that takes to long then save it as a node group to append in later. Otherwise where would the devs stop, making a node for every function you think up? Cheers, David Mcsween On 5 Mar 2015 22:10, Akash Hamirwasia akash.hamirwa...@gmail.com wrote: Hello! I have found out that creating vignettes in Blender's compositor can take time and other people agree with it. Also if there is a Vignette node, it will make people be focused on compositing rather than spending their time in creating a Vignette. Also I had created a video on it which you can watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT3MnW8lV-slist= UUr1WiR4fh3LcI7bODbMuaYA Also here are the survey results: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_- aTJLT2Z3bzBweUlkbU00T3FUTHhoaGgwWTdr/edit?usp=docslist_api https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_- bmE4QlI2WWdueHJZZkhvek1nX2NKSXFHNER3/edit?usp=docslist_api Hope you accept and reply to my request.. Thanks, Akash Hamirwasia blenderskool.webs.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Really its not that hard to make with 2 or three nodes. If that takes to long then save it as a node group to append in later. Otherwise where would the devs stop, making a node for every function you think up? Cheers, David Mcsween On 5 Mar 2015 22:10, Akash Hamirwasia akash.hamirwa...@gmail.com wrote: Hello! I have found out that creating vignettes in Blender's compositor can take time and other people agree with it. Also if there is a Vignette node, it will make people be focused on compositing rather than spending their time in creating a Vignette. Also I had created a video on it which you can watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT3MnW8lV-slist=UUr1WiR4fh3LcI7bODbMuaYA Also here are the survey results: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_-aTJLT2Z3bzBweUlkbU00T3FUTHhoaGgwWTdr/edit?usp=docslist_api https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mlx20fd5_-bmE4QlI2WWdueHJZZkhvek1nX2NKSXFHNER3/edit?usp=docslist_api Hope you accept and reply to my request.. Thanks, Akash Hamirwasia blenderskool.webs.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Le 2015-03-05 14:00, Johnny Matthews a écrit : David, I'm not sure your tone here is helpful. Also to take a stab at where would the devs stop? Take a look at http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ [1] That would be the equivalent to having a node groups library, which a vignette effect can be part of. This is something that a lot of users have been doing for a long time. Links: -- [1] http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
On Mar 5, 2015 6:13 AM, Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: Oh you burned me so bad there. It wasn't intended as a burn, and I regret that you saw it as such. The idea that a multiplication isn't complex was directed at the suggestion that there would be “efficiencies” if coded at a more “atomic” level; a node that merely performs a multiplication would not see such gains. I am also curious why you discredited Mr. McSween's line of reasoning above? If one examines industry leading tools such as Nuke, one will not find a multiplication blur vignette node. While this might seem a curious omission in an industrial imaging application, we can wonder if the vignette node: A) Does the node model the dispersion and chromatic aberration characteristics of a lens near the periphery? B) Does the node, when dealing with A above, manage variable primary reference spaces correctly? C) Does the node offer compression adaption for anamorphic or other non-spherical lens representations? D) Does the node offer variable density of the light occlusion? E) Does the node adapt to the variable distortions of a lens model? Most of these facets are unique and complex, and as such, would likely be modeled into a more granular set of nodes, which would be welcome I am certain. The nuances of each of these would require an understanding of optics to model correctly, and designed to some of the standards already relevant for a visual effects workflow. Hopefully the depth of your knowledge can cover some of the above issues and a more granular set of nodes is plausible. With respect, TJS ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Vignette node for Blender's Compositor
Sure in a basic take a blurry mask and multiply it against an image, there is not really efficiency to be gained, I was thinking on a more generic sense of some node groups may benefit from compiler level optimization. I think your breakdown of a possible vignette node to end all vignette nodes, sounds great. Would we say then Ok end users, instead of providing you with a vignette node, we provided you with a dozen basic nodes that you will have to build your own with, good luck!? or would we provide them with both? I know the procedure of linking in libraries has already been floated in this discussion, but the workflow is dodgy. You either have to break your workflow to go find and append the node you want, or dump them all into your default blend where they show up in one popup menu under add-group. I would see a 2 part solution: Part 1) Better organizational abilities for node groups so that they feel more like regular nodes. Like an option of which Node Add Menu submenu to put them in rather than straight into the group category. Part 2) A set of common functions (like vignette) shipped with blender even if they are just node groups that are put in a different submenu. Thoughts? On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 8:12 AM Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: Oh you burned me so bad there. On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 7:47 AM Troy Sobotka troy.sobo...@gmail.com wrote: Multiplication isn't exactly complex. With respect, TJS On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 5:25 AM Johnny Matthews johnny.matth...@gmail.com wrote: True, but is it out of the question that some of the node groups could have efficiencies added by coding them more atomically? On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:07 AM Kévin Dietrich kevin.dietr...@mailoo.org wrote: Le 2015-03-05 14:00, Johnny Matthews a écrit : David, I'm not sure your tone here is helpful. Also to take a stab at where would the devs stop? Take a look at http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ [1] That would be the equivalent to having a node groups library, which a vignette effect can be part of. This is something that a lot of users have been doing for a long time. Links: -- [1] http://www.redgiant.com/products/magic-bullet-looks/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
