Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Julian Eisel]

TL;DR: +1 for alternating Monday meetings; development forum is an
interesting idea; big +1 for a weekly activity log.

 Re: Alternating meeting 

Alternating Monday meetings make sense to me.

 Re: Dev forum 

The idea of having a forum specifically for development sounds really
interesting to me. However I agree we'd had to make sure it stays on
topic and maintenance burden is minimal. There are many ways to
approach this, but I'd suggest we first try it without special limits
(as in, restricting access to devs only or such). I'm optimistic that
it'll be a civilized place, just like our mailing lists are.
If the forum works well for us, we can still decide to drop mailing
lists at some point. But that's not the goal it's a possible future
step.

On IRC the very valid point was raised that it doesn't make much sense
to think about a forum as an onboarding platform while numerous
ignored patches are sitting in the patch tracker. I absolutely agree
this is an issue. I don't think that invalidates the forum idea
though. In the forum we could communicate our issues with reviewing
and give patch authors a chance to speak up. E.g. we could have an own
"Patch Review" category with a pinned thread in which we describe and
talk about our reviewing process issues.

Don't want to do a ML bashing here, but I do think a discourse forum
would have a whole bunch of features that ML's miss (markdown support,
embedded images, hyperlinks, thread pinning, notifications, mobile
friendly, ... - just to name some basic ones). That's what makes the
idea most interesting to me.

Anyway, I'm keen to see some experiments on this!

 Re: Activity log 

Huuuge +1 for a weekly activity log. There is indeed a communication
gap that needs to be filled. I was hoping for something like this for
ages ;). But yes, it takes time and someone has to actually do it
every week.

> Having said all this, added communication takes time - the author of
> this-week-in-rust said it takes between ~4-6 hours a week.
> A Blender equivalent would be much smaller since we wouldn't be
> including general news (things BlenderNation already covers).
I'm not sure if this is true, Blender has many areas and developers
work on completely different things. From working on the release
notes, I recall I really had to understand the new features to explain
them properly in the notes. It was quite time consuming, usually I had
to dig into commit messages and code of each feature.
Of course, it won't be so much of a burden if we team up and work on
it together.

In general, I see some similarities to release notes. And since the
suggestion came up to automate the activity log as much as possible,
maybe we could use this automation for release notes as well.

On 3 September 2017 at 18:35, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Totally agree on this:
>
>> Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
>> funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.
>
> Not to belittle contributions from volunteers (these are essential), but to 
> invite more companies to hire developers or to support the foundation. A lot 
> of essential development work is being done this way nowadays.
>
> Laters,
>
> -Ton-
>
> 
> Ton Roosendaal  -  t...@blender.org   -   www.blender.org
> Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
> Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>
>> On 1 Sep 2017, at 20:37, Brecht Van Lommel  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
>> funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.
>>
>> Discourse: I wouldn't mind if this replaced mailing lists in the end. It
>> seems mailing list archives can be imported and you can also interact with
>> it through email.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Aaron Carlisle 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For a developer forum/general questions Phabricator as a feature called
>>> Ponder https://secure.phabricator.com/ponder/
>>>
>>> Aaron Carlisle
>>>
>>> Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
>>> Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Campbell Barton 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner 
>>> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> answers are inlined:
>
>> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
>>
>> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam
 time. Drop the Sunday meetings.
>
> I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more
 time zones to participate.
> Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid
 contributors, weekends better for volunteers.
>
>> 1) Forums: (discourse)
>> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories <
 https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories>
>
> Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right
 now, we’re ab

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Ton Roosendaal]

Hi,

Totally agree on this:

> Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
> funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.

Not to belittle contributions from volunteers (these are essential), but to 
invite more companies to hire developers or to support the foundation. A lot of 
essential development work is being done this way nowadays.

Laters,

-Ton-


Ton Roosendaal  -  t...@blender.org   -   www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands

> On 1 Sep 2017, at 20:37, Brecht Van Lommel  wrote:
> 
> Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
> funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.
> 
> Discourse: I wouldn't mind if this replaced mailing lists in the end. It
> seems mailing list archives can be imported and you can also interact with
> it through email.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Aaron Carlisle 
> wrote:
> 
>> For a developer forum/general questions Phabricator as a feature called
>> Ponder https://secure.phabricator.com/ponder/
>> 
>> Aaron Carlisle
>> 
>> Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
>> Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Campbell Barton 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner 
>> wrote:
 Hi,
 
 answers are inlined:
 
> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> 
> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam
>>> time. Drop the Sunday meetings.
 
 I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more
>>> time zones to participate.
 Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid
>>> contributors, weekends better for volunteers.
 
> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories <
>>> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories>
 
 Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right
>>> now, we’re abusing the bug tracker
 as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 <
>>> https://developer.blender.org/T46258>
>>> 
>>> This looks like proper tracker use to me, focused design tasks for
>>> planning is fine.
>>> 
>>> There are a few times I've seen people try and use tracker more like a
>>> forum for asking questions or submitting a patch which is really a
>>> question about code. I don't think its much of a problem.
>>> 
>>> Even so, could be nice to try out a forum for developers.
>>> 
 Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in
>>> mailing lists.
 
> 2) Weekly activity log
> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 
 
 Helpful, we should do that.
>>> 
>>> While it would be nice, are people interested to write/manage this?
>>> 
>>> Maybe best to do a trial-run for ~5 weeks or so, continue if it's working
>>> out.
>>> 
> 4) No mailing lists!
> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
> 
> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
>>> activity log sound great.
> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
 
 If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on
>>> mobile devices
 (including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends
>>> server-side generated
 static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and
>>> works even when
 you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require
>>> several MB
 just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.
 
 For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just
>>> the forum start page
 comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it
>> on
>>> my phone. BA, even
 with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come
>>> in at 300kB. Plain text
 contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration
>>> and oh-so-useful features
 nobody uses.
 
 I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want
>> to
>>> git clone over GPRS)
 but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf
>> is
>>> roughly 7 hours on a train
 that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that
>>> time go to waste.
 
>>> 
>>> Did you look into https://try.discourse.org ?
>>> 
 -Stefan
 ___
 Bf-committers mailing list
 Bf-committers@blender.org
 https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> - Campbell
>>> ___
>>> Bf-committers mailing list
>>> Bf-committers@blender.org
>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>> 
>> _

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Campbell Barton]

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:55 AM, Corey Richardson  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017, at 16:48, Corey Richardson wrote:
>> I created This Week in Rust and also spearheaded the transition to
>> Discourse (including all the initial setup + admin). You _can_ interact with
>> discourse through email, but it's somewhat clunky. Definitely less pleasant 
>> than
>>
>
> ... mailman (imo). But, a lot of people prefer the web interface anyway
> and it definitely lowers the barrier to entry. It seems email is less and less
> preferred among newcomers.
>
> Here's some advice, for creating something like This Week in Blender:
>
> - Figure out how to automate as much as possible.
>
> This can be including a special string in commit messages
> (NEWSLETTER or something), mailing list messages, phabricator
> whatsnots, etc. It doesn't need to be intrusive, just machine-findable.
>
> If you can write a script that generates the skeleton of the
> newsletter from those sorts of tags, it saves a LOT of work
> for the maintainer/editor.
>
> In practice, most submissions came through IRC. Otherwise,
> at first, I manually looked at the list of all pull requests merged
> since the last issue and looked at all the reddit posts, discourse
> threads, etc.
>
> A list-of-links like TWiR has become (due to sheer volume of stuff)
> isn't very valuable on its own. One or two sentence summaries of
> important work can give casual readers/non-devs insight into the
> goings on in a way that clicking random links doesn't.
>
> Hope these comments are useful :)

Thanks for the info, your comments about automation match my experience too.
If something becomes too much of a chore, it often ends up getting abandoned.

>From a dev perspective, we already:

- Write commit logs.
- Reply on tracker explaining the fix (sometimes)
- Write a weekly report (anyone hired to work on Blender)
- Update release notes (for significant changes).
- Maybe update/write docs in www.blender.org/manual
  (or ask one of the document authors to help out).

The challenge AFAICS is how to do this without causing extra hassles,
by relying on people who have free time to write up an activity log
AND/OR making it very easy for developers to contribute changes.

-- 
- Campbell
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Corey Richardson]

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017, at 16:48, Corey Richardson wrote:
> I created This Week in Rust and also spearheaded the transition to
> Discourse (including all the initial setup + admin). You _can_ interact with
> discourse through email, but it's somewhat clunky. Definitely less pleasant 
> than
> 

... mailman (imo). But, a lot of people prefer the web interface anyway
and it definitely lowers the barrier to entry. It seems email is less and less
preferred among newcomers.

Here's some advice, for creating something like This Week in Blender:

- Figure out how to automate as much as possible.

This can be including a special string in commit messages
(NEWSLETTER or something), mailing list messages, phabricator
whatsnots, etc. It doesn't need to be intrusive, just machine-findable.

If you can write a script that generates the skeleton of the
newsletter from those sorts of tags, it saves a LOT of work
for the maintainer/editor.

In practice, most submissions came through IRC. Otherwise,
at first, I manually looked at the list of all pull requests merged
since the last issue and looked at all the reddit posts, discourse
threads, etc.

A list-of-links like TWiR has become (due to sheer volume of stuff)
isn't very valuable on its own. One or two sentence summaries of
important work can give casual readers/non-devs insight into the
goings on in a way that clicking random links doesn't.

Hope these comments are useful :)

-- 
cmr
http://octayn.net/
+16038524272
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Corey Richardson]

I created This Week in Rust and also spearheaded the transition to
Discourse (including all the initial setup + admin). You _can_ interact with
discourse through email, but it's somewhat clunky. Definitely less pleasant than

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017, at 14:37, Brecht Van Lommel wrote:
> Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
> funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.
> 
> Discourse: I wouldn't mind if this replaced mailing lists in the end. It
> seems mailing list archives can be imported and you can also interact with
> it through email.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Aaron Carlisle 
> wrote:
> 
> > For a developer forum/general questions Phabricator as a feature called
> > Ponder https://secure.phabricator.com/ponder/
> >
> > Aaron Carlisle
> >
> > Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
> > Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Campbell Barton 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner 
> > wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > answers are inlined:
> > > >
> > > >> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam
> > > time. Drop the Sunday meetings.
> > > >
> > > > I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more
> > > time zones to participate.
> > > > Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid
> > > contributors, weekends better for volunteers.
> > > >
> > > >> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> > > >> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories <
> > > https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories>
> > > >
> > > > Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right
> > > now, we’re abusing the bug tracker
> > > > as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 <
> > > https://developer.blender.org/T46258>
> > >
> > > This looks like proper tracker use to me, focused design tasks for
> > > planning is fine.
> > >
> > > There are a few times I've seen people try and use tracker more like a
> > > forum for asking questions or submitting a patch which is really a
> > > question about code. I don't think its much of a problem.
> > >
> > > Even so, could be nice to try out a forum for developers.
> > >
> > > > Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in
> > > mailing lists.
> > > >
> > > >> 2) Weekly activity log
> > > >> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 
> > > >
> > > > Helpful, we should do that.
> > >
> > > While it would be nice, are people interested to write/manage this?
> > >
> > > Maybe best to do a trial-run for ~5 weeks or so, continue if it's working
> > > out.
> > >
> > > >> 4) No mailing lists!
> > > >> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
> > > activity log sound great.
> > > >> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
> > > >
> > > > If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on
> > > mobile devices
> > > > (including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends
> > > server-side generated
> > > > static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and
> > > works even when
> > > > you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require
> > > several MB
> > > > just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.
> > > >
> > > > For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just
> > > the forum start page
> > > > comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it
> > on
> > > my phone. BA, even
> > > > with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come
> > > in at 300kB. Plain text
> > > > contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration
> > > and oh-so-useful features
> > > > nobody uses.
> > > >
> > > > I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want
> > to
> > > git clone over GPRS)
> > > > but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf
> > is
> > > roughly 7 hours on a train
> > > > that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that
> > > time go to waste.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did you look into https://try.discourse.org ?
> > >
> > > > -Stefan
> > > > ___
> > > > Bf-committers mailing list
> > > > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Campbell
> > > ___
> > > Bf-committers mailing list
> > > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >
> > ___
> > Bf-committers mailing list
> > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listi

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Brecht Van Lommel]

Activity log: It would be nice if this helped users see what is being
funded by the dev fund, cloud, etc.

Discourse: I wouldn't mind if this replaced mailing lists in the end. It
seems mailing list archives can be imported and you can also interact with
it through email.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Aaron Carlisle 
wrote:

> For a developer forum/general questions Phabricator as a feature called
> Ponder https://secure.phabricator.com/ponder/
>
> Aaron Carlisle
>
> Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
> Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Campbell Barton 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner 
> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > answers are inlined:
> > >
> > >> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam
> > time. Drop the Sunday meetings.
> > >
> > > I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more
> > time zones to participate.
> > > Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid
> > contributors, weekends better for volunteers.
> > >
> > >> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> > >> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories <
> > https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories>
> > >
> > > Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right
> > now, we’re abusing the bug tracker
> > > as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 <
> > https://developer.blender.org/T46258>
> >
> > This looks like proper tracker use to me, focused design tasks for
> > planning is fine.
> >
> > There are a few times I've seen people try and use tracker more like a
> > forum for asking questions or submitting a patch which is really a
> > question about code. I don't think its much of a problem.
> >
> > Even so, could be nice to try out a forum for developers.
> >
> > > Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in
> > mailing lists.
> > >
> > >> 2) Weekly activity log
> > >> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 
> > >
> > > Helpful, we should do that.
> >
> > While it would be nice, are people interested to write/manage this?
> >
> > Maybe best to do a trial-run for ~5 weeks or so, continue if it's working
> > out.
> >
> > >> 4) No mailing lists!
> > >> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
> > >>
> > >> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
> > activity log sound great.
> > >> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
> > >
> > > If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on
> > mobile devices
> > > (including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends
> > server-side generated
> > > static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and
> > works even when
> > > you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require
> > several MB
> > > just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.
> > >
> > > For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just
> > the forum start page
> > > comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it
> on
> > my phone. BA, even
> > > with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come
> > in at 300kB. Plain text
> > > contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration
> > and oh-so-useful features
> > > nobody uses.
> > >
> > > I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want
> to
> > git clone over GPRS)
> > > but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf
> is
> > roughly 7 hours on a train
> > > that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that
> > time go to waste.
> > >
> >
> > Did you look into https://try.discourse.org ?
> >
> > > -Stefan
> > > ___
> > > Bf-committers mailing list
> > > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Campbell
> > ___
> > Bf-committers mailing list
> > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Aaron Carlisle]

For a developer forum/general questions Phabricator as a feature called
Ponder https://secure.phabricator.com/ponder/

Aaron Carlisle

Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Campbell Barton 
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > answers are inlined:
> >
> >> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> >>
> >> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam
> time. Drop the Sunday meetings.
> >
> > I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more
> time zones to participate.
> > Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid
> contributors, weekends better for volunteers.
> >
> >> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> >> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories <
> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories>
> >
> > Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right
> now, we’re abusing the bug tracker
> > as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 <
> https://developer.blender.org/T46258>
>
> This looks like proper tracker use to me, focused design tasks for
> planning is fine.
>
> There are a few times I've seen people try and use tracker more like a
> forum for asking questions or submitting a patch which is really a
> question about code. I don't think its much of a problem.
>
> Even so, could be nice to try out a forum for developers.
>
> > Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in
> mailing lists.
> >
> >> 2) Weekly activity log
> >> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 
> >
> > Helpful, we should do that.
>
> While it would be nice, are people interested to write/manage this?
>
> Maybe best to do a trial-run for ~5 weeks or so, continue if it's working
> out.
>
> >> 4) No mailing lists!
> >> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
> >>
> >> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
> activity log sound great.
> >> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
> >
> > If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on
> mobile devices
> > (including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends
> server-side generated
> > static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and
> works even when
> > you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require
> several MB
> > just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.
> >
> > For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just
> the forum start page
> > comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it on
> my phone. BA, even
> > with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come
> in at 300kB. Plain text
> > contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration
> and oh-so-useful features
> > nobody uses.
> >
> > I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want to
> git clone over GPRS)
> > but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf is
> roughly 7 hours on a train
> > that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that
> time go to waste.
> >
>
> Did you look into https://try.discourse.org ?
>
> > -Stefan
> > ___
> > Bf-committers mailing list
> > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
>
>
> --
> - Campbell
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Campbell Barton]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Stefan Werner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> answers are inlined:
>
>> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
>>
>> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam time. 
>> Drop the Sunday meetings.
>
> I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more time 
> zones to participate.
> Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid contributors, 
> weekends better for volunteers.
>
>> 1) Forums: (discourse)
>> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories 
>> 
>
> Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right now, 
> we’re abusing the bug tracker
> as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 
> 

This looks like proper tracker use to me, focused design tasks for
planning is fine.

There are a few times I've seen people try and use tracker more like a
forum for asking questions or submitting a patch which is really a
question about code. I don't think its much of a problem.

Even so, could be nice to try out a forum for developers.

> Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in mailing 
> lists.
>
>> 2) Weekly activity log
>> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 
>
> Helpful, we should do that.

While it would be nice, are people interested to write/manage this?

Maybe best to do a trial-run for ~5 weeks or so, continue if it's working out.

>> 4) No mailing lists!
>> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
>>
>> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and activity 
>> log sound great.
>> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
>
> If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on mobile 
> devices
> (including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends 
> server-side generated
> static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and works 
> even when
> you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require several 
> MB
> just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.
>
> For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just the 
> forum start page
> comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it on my 
> phone. BA, even
> with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come in at 
> 300kB. Plain text
> contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration and 
> oh-so-useful features
> nobody uses.
>
> I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want to git 
> clone over GPRS)
> but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf is 
> roughly 7 hours on a train
> that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that time go 
> to waste.
>

Did you look into https://try.discourse.org ?

> -Stefan
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers



-- 
- Campbell
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Stefan Werner]

Hi,

answers are inlined:

> On 28. Aug 2017, at 14:27, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
> 
> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam time. 
> Drop the Sunday meetings.

I like the alternating time idea, that should allow people from more time zones 
to participate.
Picking a right day is hard though - weekdays are good paid contributors, 
weekends better for volunteers.

> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories 
> 

Some kind of developer focussed forum is helpful, I would think. Right now, 
we’re abusing the bug tracker
as forum: https://developer.blender.org/T46258 

Discussions like this don’t work at all on IRC and not very well in mailing 
lists.

> 2) Weekly activity log
> https://this-week-in-rust.org/ 

Helpful, we should do that.

> 4) No mailing lists!
> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
> 
> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and activity 
> log sound great.
> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.

If we use a web based forum, please let’s pick one that works well on mobile 
devices
(including the ones that are not the latest and greatest) and sends server-side 
generated
static HTML. Responding to email on a smartphone is quick and easy and works 
even when
you have a terrible connection. “Modern” HTML pages sometimes require several MB
just to display essentially a couple of paragraphs of text.

For example, one of the forums I visit sometimes runs on nodeBB. Just the forum 
start page
comes in at 1.17MB. That’s ridiculous and I pretty much never read it on my 
phone. BA, even
with the features images, is only half as big, simple phpBB sites come in at 
300kB. Plain text
contents of these pages is just a few kB, the rest is mostly decoration and 
oh-so-useful features
nobody uses.

I know, we need to have fast connections to begin with (wouldn’t want to git 
clone over GPRS)
but I like to make my time on the road useful too. From here to BConf is 
roughly 7 hours on a train
that promises WIFI but doesn’t always deliver. Don’t want to let that time go 
to waste.

-Stefan
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Campbell Barton]

Having a "This Week in Blender Development" ~ activity log would fill a gap.
Not just for anyone interested in following development, it could also
help give attention to new development - patches, branches etc.

Currently there activity on developer.blender.org which is too
detailed, or the very occasional blog post on code.blender.org.

While the weekly meetings notes aren't meant to be a general news -
every so often newsworthy items are included.
I have the impression people want to read them to find out interesting
things that are going on.

The topics in the meeting notes are quite haphazard - depending on
timezones and who shows up to the meeting.

Having said all this, added communication takes time - the author of
this-week-in-rust said it takes between ~4-6 hours a week.
A Blender equivalent would be much smaller since we wouldn't be
including general news (things BlenderNation already covers).

If this can be shared between a few people I think its not such a big
task to maintain.
Ideally anyone could submit items (this-week-in-rust accepts via pull
requests and twitter).

On boarding is a big topic, would rather discuss in IRC.

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Aaron Carlisle  wrote:
> I like the idea of moving the weekly meeting to Monday and alternating the
> time.
> As far as other forms of communication a definitely think that something
> better needs to be done.
> I like the idea of activity log, the forum would be hard to maintain a
> could end up like:
> https://www.blender.org/forum/ This would also be hard to use along side
> with blenderartists.org
> not to mention the fact that like blenderartists no one will like to go to
> the forum.
>
> Aaron Carlisle
>
> Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
> Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> With a lot of Blender's development now handled by people who do it as a
>> daytime job, the weekend meetings are increasingly hard to keep interesting
>> and useful.
>>
>> The Monday morning 2.8 kickoff session (see previous mail) is much more
>> productive.
>> However, it only suits EU and Asia/Australia, not the Americas.
>>
>> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam time.
>> Drop the Sunday meetings.
>> Other ideas welcome :)
>>
>> Campbell pointed at what Rust (programming language) does.
>>
>> 1) Forums: (discourse)
>> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories
>>
>> 2) Weekly activity log
>> https://this-week-in-rust.org/
>>
>> 3) Freenode IRC meetings based on interest, scheduled via activity log
>> #rust-community, #rust-docs, #rust-triage
>>
>> Especially the triage sessions follow an interesting approach:
>> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/rust-release-triage
>>
>> 4) No mailing lists!
>> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
>>
>> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
>> activity log sound great.
>> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> -Ton-
>>
>> 
>> Ton Roosendaal  -  t...@blender.org   -   www.blender.org
>> Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
>> Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>>
>> ___
>> Bf-committers mailing list
>> Bf-committers@blender.org
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers



-- 
- Campbell
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

Re: [Bf-committers] Weekly meetings and communication channels

[Aaron Carlisle]

I like the idea of moving the weekly meeting to Monday and alternating the
time.
As far as other forms of communication a definitely think that something
better needs to be done.
I like the idea of activity log, the forum would be hard to maintain a
could end up like:
https://www.blender.org/forum/ This would also be hard to use along side
with blenderartists.org
not to mention the fact that like blenderartists no one will like to go to
the forum.

Aaron Carlisle

Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist
Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Ton Roosendaal  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> With a lot of Blender's development now handled by people who do it as a
> daytime job, the weekend meetings are increasingly hard to keep interesting
> and useful.
>
> The Monday morning 2.8 kickoff session (see previous mail) is much more
> productive.
> However, it only suits EU and Asia/Australia, not the Americas.
>
> Proposal: alternate Monday meetings to be 10:00 and 18:00 Amsterdam time.
> Drop the Sunday meetings.
> Other ideas welcome :)
>
> Campbell pointed at what Rust (programming language) does.
>
> 1) Forums: (discourse)
> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories
>
> 2) Weekly activity log
> https://this-week-in-rust.org/
>
> 3) Freenode IRC meetings based on interest, scheduled via activity log
> #rust-community, #rust-docs, #rust-triage
>
> Especially the triage sessions follow an interesting approach:
> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/rust-release-triage
>
> 4) No mailing lists!
> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2015-January/011558.html
>
> Now I don't think we need to drop mailing lists, but the forums and
> activity log sound great.
> Discourse also might help making our onboarding process better.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -Ton-
>
> 
> Ton Roosendaal  -  t...@blender.org   -   www.blender.org
> Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
> Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>
> ___
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers@blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
___
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers