Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share

[Scott Morris Rose via Bikies]

Evidently using Citi Bike costs a minimum of $12 - that's for a one-day
pass, and there is no cheaper single-use option. A three-day Citi Bike pass
is $24, yearly $163, vs. a thirty-day Spin pass for $29 - Citi Bike
evidently doesn't offer anything between three days and yearly (their
$15/mo plan requires an one-year commitment so is really an annual plan for
$180 with an installment payment plan). Except for Citi Bike users willing
to commit to a year, I think the Spin monthly pass is pretty attractive by
those standards. Citi Bike in such fine winter months as February probably
isn't as useful as other months. The ability to pay a buck to use it, or
Lime, once also compares favorably for a casual user.

To me, the challenges facing users of these two dockless systems are much
more about finding a working bike when you need one - they can't be
reserved while you walk to where the map shows one to be - risking a helmet
fine, and biking up some of those hills with only three speeds and no foot
capture. Being lured into an alleyway for a beating might also be a
downside. For the vendors, it's keeping the bikes out of the ship canal and
from being locked in people's private spaces so they'll be available for
the user's next ride. Let's guess that the police won't much enforce the
helmet law - Seattle jaywalking tickets are way down over the last decade
(though it has recently emerged that the story is less pleasant for
pedestrians of color).


On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Robbie Webber via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> OK. At least they are offering that. But that still works out a LOT more
> expensive than any annual or monthly membership at any traditional bike
> share, even NYC or DC.
>
> Robbie Webber
> Transportation geek
> All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
> organization with which I am affiliated.
>
> Founding member, Madison Bikes 
> *...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
> place year round.*
> MadisonBikes.org 
> Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Eric Sundquist 
> wrote:
>
>> They have flat rate for dockless.
>>
>> https://seattle.curbed.com/2017/7/28/16060052/spin-bike-shar
>> e-monthly-pricing
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Robbie Webber via Bikies 
>> *To:* Scott Morris Rose 
>> *Cc:* Bikies 
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2017 4:45 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share
>>
>> I understand the appeal of the dockless system for both cities (no major
>> infrastructure to site in the right of way) and the occasional user (no
>> membership fees.) But for someone who is planning on using the system on a
>> regular basis, the per-hour charge can get pricey fast.
>>
>> Let's say you take the train into the city and want to use the bike for
>> the last-mile leg (which might be shorter or longer than one mile.) That's
>> $1 in the AM and $1 in the PM. You also want to use the bike to either have
>> lunch or run an errand midday. That's another $2 for the midday trip.
>> Finally, you are going out to dinner or happy hour with friends. That's at
>> least $1 more if you assume the final trip back to your train is covered as
>> part of your normal PM commute.
>>
>> So that's $5/day for an average day. If you are running a bunch of
>> errands or have several meetings during the day, it could be more.
>>
>> Sure, you might be able to just keep a bike in the city to use, but then
>> you can't get a ride home from your friend or call a taxi/Uber if the
>> weather changes. One of the nice things about bike sharing is that you can
>> leave the bike and walk away -- no need to worry about locking it up or
>> returning it to the same spot to use the next day.
>>
>> With a standard bike-sharing system, you pay a flat price and use the
>> bike whenever you want. If you keep your one-way trips under 1/2 hour (one
>> hour in some locations) there is no further charge to use the bikes in the
>> system.
>>
>> Dockless seems to favor the occasional user, standard dock system with
>> flat rate seems to favor the power user. Sort of like having a monthly pass
>> on transit.
>>
>> Robbie Webber
>> Transportation geek
>> All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
>> organization with which I am affiliated.
>>
>> Founding member, Madison Bikes 
>> *...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
>> place year round.*
>> MadisonBikes.org 
>> Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
>> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I was a founding member of  Seattle's "Pronto!" bike share 

Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share

[Robbie Webber via Bikies]

OK. At least they are offering that. But that still works out a LOT more
expensive than any annual or monthly membership at any traditional bike
share, even NYC or DC.

Robbie Webber
Transportation geek
All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
organization with which I am affiliated.

Founding member, Madison Bikes 
*...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
place year round.*
MadisonBikes.org 
Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Eric Sundquist 
wrote:

> They have flat rate for dockless.
>
> https://seattle.curbed.com/2017/7/28/16060052/spin-bike-
> share-monthly-pricing
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Robbie Webber via Bikies 
> *To:* Scott Morris Rose 
> *Cc:* Bikies 
> *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2017 4:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share
>
> I understand the appeal of the dockless system for both cities (no major
> infrastructure to site in the right of way) and the occasional user (no
> membership fees.) But for someone who is planning on using the system on a
> regular basis, the per-hour charge can get pricey fast.
>
> Let's say you take the train into the city and want to use the bike for
> the last-mile leg (which might be shorter or longer than one mile.) That's
> $1 in the AM and $1 in the PM. You also want to use the bike to either have
> lunch or run an errand midday. That's another $2 for the midday trip.
> Finally, you are going out to dinner or happy hour with friends. That's at
> least $1 more if you assume the final trip back to your train is covered as
> part of your normal PM commute.
>
> So that's $5/day for an average day. If you are running a bunch of errands
> or have several meetings during the day, it could be more.
>
> Sure, you might be able to just keep a bike in the city to use, but then
> you can't get a ride home from your friend or call a taxi/Uber if the
> weather changes. One of the nice things about bike sharing is that you can
> leave the bike and walk away -- no need to worry about locking it up or
> returning it to the same spot to use the next day.
>
> With a standard bike-sharing system, you pay a flat price and use the bike
> whenever you want. If you keep your one-way trips under 1/2 hour (one hour
> in some locations) there is no further charge to use the bikes in the
> system.
>
> Dockless seems to favor the occasional user, standard dock system with
> flat rate seems to favor the power user. Sort of like having a monthly pass
> on transit.
>
> Robbie Webber
> Transportation geek
> All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
> organization with which I am affiliated.
>
> Founding member, Madison Bikes 
> *...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
> place year round.*
> MadisonBikes.org 
> Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
> I was a founding member of  Seattle's "Pronto!" bike share program - a
> conventional system with docks - but it lost a lot of money and the city,
> which subsidized it, put a fork in it after briefly considering replacing
> it with a different subsidized system with electric-assist bikes. From the
> ashes of that subsidized system have arisen two competing unsubsidized
> systems - Lime and Spin - which both use a dockless model. The way that
> works is that the bikes have wheel locks that are unlocked when the bike is
> rented. Locking the wheel lock ends the rental. There are some trade-offs
> between the models, which mostly in my view skew in favor of the dockless
> systems.
>
> With a dockless system, there is never the problem that a user will arrive
> at the dock closest to their destination only to find that they can't end
> the rental due to a full dock. There is also never the problem that the
> dock is further from the user's destination (as long as the destination is
> in the service area, which is the Seattle city limits for both systems)
> that they have a substantial hike to that destination - users park the bike
> wherever they can find empty sidewalk. There is no concept of membership -
> users install an app and pay only for each of the rides they take - both
> systems at $1/.5h. (There is also no escalating charge for longer rentals -
> each .5h segment is $1.) That lowers the barrier to entry for visitors, who
> only need to install and configure an app on their phones.
>
> On the downside, there is nothing to keep a malevolent passerby from
> chucking a bike into the Ship Canal, as the bikes aren't tethered to a dock
> or anything else between rentals. How 

Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share

[Eric Sundquist via Bikies]

They have flat rate for dockless.
https://seattle.curbed.com/2017/7/28/16060052/spin-bike-share-monthly-pricing




  From: Robbie Webber via Bikies 
 To: Scott Morris Rose  
Cc: Bikies 
 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2017 4:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share
   
I understand the appeal of the dockless system for both cities (no major 
infrastructure to site in the right of way) and the occasional user (no 
membership fees.) But for someone who is planning on using the system on a 
regular basis, the per-hour charge can get pricey fast.
Let's say you take the train into the city and want to use the bike for the 
last-mile leg (which might be shorter or longer than one mile.) That's $1 in 
the AM and $1 in the PM. You also want to use the bike to either have lunch or 
run an errand midday. That's another $2 for the midday trip. Finally, you are 
going out to dinner or happy hour with friends. That's at least $1 more if you 
assume the final trip back to your train is covered as part of your normal PM 
commute. 
So that's $5/day for an average day. If you are running a bunch of errands or 
have several meetings during the day, it could be more.
Sure, you might be able to just keep a bike in the city to use, but then you 
can't get a ride home from your friend or call a taxi/Uber if the weather 
changes. One of the nice things about bike sharing is that you can leave the 
bike and walk away -- no need to worry about locking it up or returning it to 
the same spot to use the next day.
With a standard bike-sharing system, you pay a flat price and use the bike 
whenever you want. If you keep your one-way trips under 1/2 hour (one hour in 
some locations) there is no further charge to use the bikes in the system. 
Dockless seems to favor the occasional user, standard dock system with flat 
rate seems to favor the power user. Sort of like having a monthly pass on 
transit.
Robbie WebberTransportation geek
All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or organization 
with which I am affiliated.
Founding member, Madison Bikes...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently 
and comfortably to any place year round.MadisonBikes.orgFollow Madison Bikes on 
Facebook
On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies 
 wrote:

I was a founding member of  Seattle's "Pronto!" bike share program - a 
conventional system with docks - but it lost a lot of money and the city, which 
subsidized it, put a fork in it after briefly considering replacing it with a 
different subsidized system with electric-assist bikes. From the ashes of that 
subsidized system have arisen two competing unsubsidized systems - Lime and 
Spin - which both use a dockless model. The way that works is that the bikes 
have wheel locks that are unlocked when the bike is rented. Locking the wheel 
lock ends the rental. There are some trade-offs between the models, which 
mostly in my view skew in favor of the dockless systems.

With a dockless system, there is never the problem that a user will arrive at 
the dock closest to their destination only to find that they can't end the 
rental due to a full dock. There is also never the problem that the dock is 
further from the user's destination (as long as the destination is in the 
service area, which is the Seattle city limits for both systems) that they have 
a substantial hike to that destination - users park the bike wherever they can 
find empty sidewalk. There is no concept of membership - users install an app 
and pay only for each of the rides they take - both systems at $1/.5h. (There 
is also no escalating charge for longer rentals - each .5h segment is $1.) That 
lowers the barrier to entry for visitors, who only need to install and 
configure an app on their phones.

On the downside, there is nothing to keep a malevolent passerby from chucking a 
bike into the Ship Canal, as the bikes aren't tethered to a dock or anything 
else between rentals. How substantial a problem that is, only time will tell, 
but evidently it has been a problem with the similar system in Manchester, and 
is a problem in Mountain View with Google's free bikes. First time I saw a 
dockless share system was several years ago in Kyoto, and I suspect they have 
very little problem there with vandalism, because Japan.

I had a chance to see the systems in action during my Seattle trip this 
weekend, and I've attached photos of the bikes, which I didn't try as I had my 
own bike with me. I did install the Spin app, and it's simple both to configure 
and to use. Bikes of both systems were very prevalent in the neighborhoods I 
rode in, mostly along the Ship Canal (U District, Fremont, Ballard) and 
downtown. And people were riding them.

Another issue is with helmets, use of which is required by law in King County. 
Neither Lime nor Spin offer helmets with their bike or as a distinct rental, 
while 

Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share

[Robbie Webber via Bikies]

I understand the appeal of the dockless system for both cities (no major
infrastructure to site in the right of way) and the occasional user (no
membership fees.) But for someone who is planning on using the system on a
regular basis, the per-hour charge can get pricey fast.

Let's say you take the train into the city and want to use the bike for the
last-mile leg (which might be shorter or longer than one mile.) That's $1
in the AM and $1 in the PM. You also want to use the bike to either have
lunch or run an errand midday. That's another $2 for the midday trip.
Finally, you are going out to dinner or happy hour with friends. That's at
least $1 more if you assume the final trip back to your train is covered as
part of your normal PM commute.

So that's $5/day for an average day. If you are running a bunch of errands
or have several meetings during the day, it could be more.

Sure, you might be able to just keep a bike in the city to use, but then
you can't get a ride home from your friend or call a taxi/Uber if the
weather changes. One of the nice things about bike sharing is that you can
leave the bike and walk away -- no need to worry about locking it up or
returning it to the same spot to use the next day.

With a standard bike-sharing system, you pay a flat price and use the bike
whenever you want. If you keep your one-way trips under 1/2 hour (one hour
in some locations) there is no further charge to use the bikes in the
system.

Dockless seems to favor the occasional user, standard dock system with flat
rate seems to favor the power user. Sort of like having a monthly pass on
transit.

Robbie Webber
Transportation geek
All opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of any group or
organization with which I am affiliated.

Founding member, Madison Bikes 
*...where anyone can ride a bicycle conveniently and comfortably to any
place year round.*
MadisonBikes.org 
Follow Madison Bikes on Facebook 

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> I was a founding member of  Seattle's "Pronto!" bike share program - a
> conventional system with docks - but it lost a lot of money and the city,
> which subsidized it, put a fork in it after briefly considering replacing
> it with a different subsidized system with electric-assist bikes. From the
> ashes of that subsidized system have arisen two competing unsubsidized
> systems - Lime and Spin - which both use a dockless model. The way that
> works is that the bikes have wheel locks that are unlocked when the bike is
> rented. Locking the wheel lock ends the rental. There are some trade-offs
> between the models, which mostly in my view skew in favor of the dockless
> systems.
>
> With a dockless system, there is never the problem that a user will arrive
> at the dock closest to their destination only to find that they can't end
> the rental due to a full dock. There is also never the problem that the
> dock is further from the user's destination (as long as the destination is
> in the service area, which is the Seattle city limits for both systems)
> that they have a substantial hike to that destination - users park the bike
> wherever they can find empty sidewalk. There is no concept of membership -
> users install an app and pay only for each of the rides they take - both
> systems at $1/.5h. (There is also no escalating charge for longer rentals -
> each .5h segment is $1.) That lowers the barrier to entry for visitors, who
> only need to install and configure an app on their phones.
>
> On the downside, there is nothing to keep a malevolent passerby from
> chucking a bike into the Ship Canal, as the bikes aren't tethered to a dock
> or anything else between rentals. How substantial a problem that is, only
> time will tell, but evidently it has been a problem with the similar system
> in Manchester, and is a problem in Mountain View with Google's free bikes.
> First time I saw a dockless share system was several years ago in Kyoto,
> and I suspect they have very little problem there with vandalism, because
> Japan.
>
> I had a chance to see the systems in action during my Seattle trip this
> weekend, and I've attached photos of the bikes, which I didn't try as I had
> my own bike with me. I did install the Spin app, and it's simple both to
> configure and to use. Bikes of both systems were very prevalent in the
> neighborhoods I rode in, mostly along the Ship Canal (U District, Fremont,
> Ballard) and downtown. And people were riding them.
>
> Another issue is with helmets, use of which is required by law in King
> County. Neither Lime nor Spin offer helmets with their bike or as a
> distinct rental, while Pronto! provided them with each bike, along with a
> presumably expensive scheme for cleaning them. That's going to lead to
> rampant scofflaw behavior. Or, more accurately, continue rampant scofflaw

Re: [Bikies] dockless bike share

[Spencer Gardner via Bikies]

For a slightly less rosy take on dockless bike share in Seattle:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/dockless-bike-sharing-lands-in-seattle-and-leads-us-down-unsavory-alleyways/

The technology looks very promising. I hope the Seattle operators can work
out the kinks.
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