Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-09 Thread Kevin Darcy
Well, I wouldn't consider the use of OS-level magic to solve a 
DNS-specific problem (or meet a DNS-specific business requirement) to be 
solving problems in the right space at all. Quite the opposite. It 
smacks of a layer violation (the OS being considered as lower-level, 
layer-wise, than the DNS subsystem).


Layer violation aside, though, in practical terms, while maybe there are 
a few server-centric options from which to choose with respect to 
match-destinations-based virtualization of the DNS database -- use 
views, separate named instances on the same server with non-overlapping 
listen-on's, separate (physical or virtual) OS instances -- what about 
match-clients-based virtualization? That involves big-picture 
considerations beyond just those focused on to the server side of the 
DNS transaction -- client configuration/management and name-resolution 
architecture. Does one go out and (re-)configure different communities 
of clients to point to different resolver addresses? Even with DHCP 
(*assuming* that it's centrally-managed, and *assuming* good 
communication and co-ordination between the DNS and DHCP groups, if 
separate), there are still going to be clients that don't use DHCP for 
resolver configuration. Manually configure those? And even where DHCP 
can ease the task, is it a win, overall, for simplicity and elegance, to 
complicate the configuration of one network subsystem (DHCP) to protect 
another (DNS)? If Anycast is in use, how does one handle that? Separate 
sets of Anycast addresses for each virtualization of the DNS database 
(thus shifting the impurity of view configuration to the impurity of 
fragmented Anycast configuration)? What about the network topology and 
the need sometimes to keep queries as local as possible (e.g. when 
faced with a trans-continental WAN link having 400ms+ latency)? Does one 
spin up virtual instances at *all* of the locations where there are 
clients which need to see a particular virtualization of the DNS 
database? So now we're looking at not just x number of virtual 
instances (one to substitute for each view), but a worst-case scenario 
of x times y, where y is the number of locations which really need 
local DNS resolution. How scalable is all of this?


Seems you value purity of named.conf highly, and that's admirable. But 
reality, in the form of economics and logistics, often intrudes on 
configurational purity. Purity and 80 cents might buy someone a cup of 
coffee...


FYI, my previous figure of 7 views, in the worst case, was actually 
overstated somewhat. After disregarding the views which are extraneous 
(never matched, just artifacts of my configuration-management system), 
and those which are truly temporary (due to sundowning of a datacenter, 
and of a GSLB technology that needed a helper), the most I have in any 
nameserver instance is 3. And all 3 of those are match-clients-based for 
purposes of enforcing security policies with respect to which DMZ or 
internal hosts can see internal and/or external DNS data (defense in 
depth). My long-term plan for resolution in my non-DMZ, 
non-Internet-facing environment is to have no views at all (or, 
technically, only the default view), but I won't hesitate to implement 
views where they make sense as temporary bridge measures and/or for 
legitimate business reasons.


- Kevin



On 1/3/2014 6:20 PM, Johan Ihrén wrote:

Hi,

On 03 Jan 2014, at 22:00 , Kevin Darcyk...@chrysler.com  wrote:


On 1/2/2014 5:47 PM, Johan Ihrén wrote:

On 02 Jan 2014, at 16:37 , Alan Clegga...@clegg.com  wrote:


On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM,wbr...@e1b.org  wrote:


Use views

Views +1

I’m a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you that 
have taken a class that I’ve taught will attest.

Furthermore, in addition to the very valid reasons that Alan list, I'd want to add yet 
another reason to implement this via multiple, simple, [virtual] servers, rather than 
using views and that is platform independence. Views are a feature specific 
to BIND9 (and ANS, I think). If I implement this via multiple servers then for each 
server I am free to choose whatever implementation is best for that task. If choose a 
design based on views, I am forced to used BIND9.

And while BIND9 may be the best thing since sliced bread, it will not be the 
preferred choice forever.

I see views in broader terms as a kind of 
source-and/or-dest-address-and/or-TSIG-key-based virtualization of a DNS 
database. Now, one can virtualize a database by virtualizing the underlying host OS 
itself -- as you and Alan have been advocating -- or one can virtualize it in a 
subsystem-specific way (BIND 9 views), which seems more focused and lightweight. Even if 
BIND 9 goes away some day, I don't think this subsystem-specific virtualization 
desire/requirement will go away. Something else will come along to fill that void 
(possibly a proprietary, for-pay piece of code). Virtualizing at the OS layer just isn't 
logistically or 

Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread WBrown
From: Barry S. Finkel bsfin...@att.net

 One caveat with using virtual servers.   Make sure that the DNS server
 on which the host machine relies is NOT the DNS server that is
 virtualized on that host.  The host machine needs to be up before
 the VMs residing on that host come up.

And you should never have only one DNS server and for reliability, they 
shouldn't be on the same host.  Or even in the same chassis if using 
blades.



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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread Matus UHLAR - fantomas

From: Barry S. Finkel bsfin...@att.net

One caveat with using virtual servers.   Make sure that the DNS server
on which the host machine relies is NOT the DNS server that is
virtualized on that host.  The host machine needs to be up before
the VMs residing on that host come up.


On 03.01.14 12:06, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:

And you should never have only one DNS server and for reliability, they
shouldn't be on the same host.  Or even in the same chassis if using
blades.


and they definitely should not be two views of the same named instance,
correct?
However this is completely different problem.

I agree that views are often problematic because people often don't
understand them properly...

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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread Thomas Schulz
 Views have been in bind for all recent history.
 
 I've watched this thread and have been biting my tongue as long as I
 could.
 
 I'm a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of
 you that have taken a class that I've taught will attest.
 
 I've seen too many problems over the years that have been caused by
 incorrect maintenance of both data feeding the views and goofs in the
 mechanisms making sure that the correct view is made available to the
 correct slave servers (and clients).
 
 With today's hardware (virtualization, etc) it's not very expensive
 to build out new servers.  Separate the services and you remove lots of
 the little prickly points that will cause you pain as the complexity of
 your infrastructure grows (and as you hand off to the 'next
 generation' of maintainers).
 
 I'm actually more a proponent of creating an architecture that doesn't
  NEED differentiated data, but there aren't a lot of places
 implementing DNS / naming structures on green-fields these days.
 
 AlanC
 --=20
 Alan Clegg | +1-919-355-8851 | a...@clegg.com

I use views here. I did have to do a little work to make suere the right
views went to the right places and to make sure that the slaves that needed
all the views got them correctly. But I can't see how setting up virtual
hosts would be less work and how setting up virtual hosts would be less
prone to errors. And I would have to figure out how to make one host only
answer internal queries and the other host only answer external queries.
That was easy to do with views (at least for me).

Tom Schulz
Applied Dynamics Intl.
sch...@adi.com
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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread Kevin Darcy
Views are like any advanced technology or technique in IT: if understood 
and used properly, they can be a big benefit; poorly understood and/or 
implemented, they can create a huge, unsupportable mess.


I try to keep the number of views to a minimum, but given the complexity 
I have to deal with, some of my named.conf's have as many as 7 views 
(most of which are temporary, since we're always in the middle of 
migrating and/or sundowning something or another).


For some of us, virtual instances cost visible bucks from our service 
provider, but views cost only extra support time, which is lumped in 
with a bunch of other support costs, and is thus not visible. 
Sometimes it matters -- to beancounters -- whether something is broken 
out as a line item or not...


- Kevin

On 1/2/2014 10:37 AM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:


Use views

Views +1

When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple servers in
BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, but I didn't
configure the servers, just maintained the zones.

We're still using multiple servers for internal vs. external resolution.

Views have been in bind for all recent history.

I've watched this thread and have been biting my tongue as long as I could.

I'm a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you that 
have taken a class that I've taught will attest.

I've seen too many problems over the years that have been caused by incorrect 
maintenance of both data feeding the views and goofs in the mechanisms making 
sure that the correct view is made available to the correct slave servers (and 
clients).

With today's hardware (virtualization, etc) it's not very expensive to build 
out new servers.  Separate the services and you remove lots of the little 
prickly points that will cause you pain as the complexity of your 
infrastructure grows (and as you hand off to the 'next generation' of 
maintainers).

I'm actually more a proponent of creating an architecture that doesn't NEED 
differentiated data, but there aren't a lot of places implementing DNS / naming 
structures on green-fields these days.

AlanC


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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread Kevin Darcy

On 1/2/2014 5:47 PM, Johan Ihrén wrote:

On 02 Jan 2014, at 16:37 , Alan Clegg a...@clegg.com wrote:


On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:


Use views

Views +1

When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple servers in
BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, but I didn't
configure the servers, just maintained the zones.

We're still using multiple servers for internal vs. external resolution.

Views have been in bind “for all recent history”.

I’ve watched this thread and have been biting my tongue as long as I could.

I’m a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you that 
have taken a class that I’ve taught will attest.

I’ve seen too many problems over the years that have been caused by incorrect 
maintenance of both data feeding the views and goofs in the mechanisms making 
sure that the correct view is made available to the correct slave servers (and 
clients).

With today’s hardware (virtualization, etc) it’s not very expensive to build 
out new servers.  Separate the services and you remove lots of the little 
prickly points that will cause you pain as the complexity of your 
infrastructure grows (and as you hand off to the ‘next generation’ of 
maintainers).

I could not agree more (as anyone who has attended a class that I've taught 
will attest ;-).

Furthermore, in addition to the very valid reasons that Alan list, I'd want to add yet 
another reason to implement this via multiple, simple, [virtual] servers, rather than 
using views and that is platform independence. Views are a feature specific 
to BIND9 (and ANS, I think). If I implement this via multiple servers then for each 
server I am free to choose whatever implementation is best for that task. If choose a 
design based on views, I am forced to used BIND9.

And while BIND9 may be the best thing since sliced bread, it will not be the 
preferred choice forever.
I see views in broader terms as a kind of 
source-and/or-dest-address-and/or-TSIG-key-based virtualization of a 
DNS database. Now, one can virtualize a database by virtualizing the 
underlying host OS itself -- as you and Alan have been advocating -- or 
one can virtualize it in a subsystem-specific way (BIND 9 views), which 
seems more focused and lightweight. Even if BIND 9 goes away some day, I 
don't think this subsystem-specific virtualization desire/requirement 
will go away. Something else will come along to fill that void (possibly 
a proprietary, for-pay piece of code). Virtualizing at the OS layer just 
isn't logistically or economically optimal in all cases.


- Kevin
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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-03 Thread Johan Ihrén
Hi,

On 03 Jan 2014, at 22:00 , Kevin Darcy k...@chrysler.com wrote:

 On 1/2/2014 5:47 PM, Johan Ihrén wrote:
 On 02 Jan 2014, at 16:37 , Alan Clegg a...@clegg.com wrote:
 
 On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:
 
 Use views
 Views +1
 
 I’m a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you 
 that have taken a class that I’ve taught will attest.
 
 Furthermore, in addition to the very valid reasons that Alan list, I'd want 
 to add yet another reason to implement this via multiple, simple, [virtual] 
 servers, rather than using views and that is platform independence. Views 
 are a feature specific to BIND9 (and ANS, I think). If I implement this via 
 multiple servers then for each server I am free to choose whatever 
 implementation is best for that task. If choose a design based on views, I 
 am forced to used BIND9.
 
 And while BIND9 may be the best thing since sliced bread, it will not be the 
 preferred choice forever.

 I see views in broader terms as a kind of 
 source-and/or-dest-address-and/or-TSIG-key-based virtualization of a DNS 
 database. Now, one can virtualize a database by virtualizing the underlying 
 host OS itself -- as you and Alan have been advocating -- or one can 
 virtualize it in a subsystem-specific way (BIND 9 views), which seems more 
 focused and lightweight. Even if BIND 9 goes away some day, I don't think 
 this subsystem-specific virtualization desire/requirement will go away. 
 Something else will come along to fill that void (possibly a proprietary, 
 for-pay piece of code). Virtualizing at the OS layer just isn't logistically 
 or economically optimal in all cases.

Interesting points. However, I must say that looking at the exact same problem 
space I come to the complete opposite conclusion.

1. Virtualisation: 

Once views were the thing to do. I also have boxes with seven or more views, a 
few of them are still running. But I don't design things that way today. The 
reason is that OS level virtualisation is so prevalent today and provides so 
many additional benefits (simplicity of DNS config, standardization of hosting 
environments, platform independence, etc).

In a way, I look at BIND9 as the forerunner for what was needed, and then 
functionality became more standardized... and I migrated away from the BIND9 
special version. Another example is the r in rndc: once upon a time I used 
rndc -s remote.box cmd to manage remote nameservers. These days I do ssh 
remote.box rndc cmd and thereby I removed yet another dependency on a BIND9 
special feature, removed the RNDC protocol from the list of remote attack 
vectors and closed another open port. All good. Views are similar.

2. Lightweight: 

Well, I have to agree that BIND9 views are more lightweight than OS level 
virtualisation, although for most of us the bang-for-the-buck is less of an 
issue than the maintenance costs... and more people seem to understand the 
concept of having several virtual servers, each with a config that they grasp. 
In my world we are at a point where creating a couple of virtual servers is 
done almost by clicking a checkbox or two, and is available basically 
everywhere. Creating new views in BIND9 on the other hand is advanced stuff. 
If you mess up, not only do you not get the new views, you run the real risk of 
compromising the entire existing DNS infrastructure. So while most of us on 
this list may look at it as trivial, it is not trivial to everyone.

3. Something else providing views-like functionality in a post-BIND9 
enviroment: 

Hmm. Not from where I'm looking. A very common use for views is to have both an 
authoritative view and a recursive/validating view in the same box. But the 
general trend is away from nameservers that do both auth and reursive service. 
NSD3, NSD4, Unbound, Knot-DNS, ANS, CNS, Yadifa, pdns, pdns-recursor, etc, etc. 
All of them are *either* authoritative or recursive. Show me the piece of code 
that is going to provide the equivalent of having both a recursive and an auth 
view in such an environment? I seem to remember that ANS has views, but as it 
is auth-only I'm assuming it cannot do this. On the other hand, yes, I'm aware 
that BIND10 has an auth module and will have a recursive module, so the picture 
is not completely one-sided.

4. Logistically or economically viable: 

I have to make the observation that trying to solve problems in the wrong 
space never works out in the long run. Yes, I am painfully aware that the 
world in general likes to try to address all sorts of problems by DNS tweaks, 
DNS lying, DNS rewriting and what have you. None of which improve on the 
quality and robustness of the DNS, in my book.

So I have to say that I strongly believe that financial and logistic problems, 
important as they may be, should be addressed somewhere else than in my 
named.conf. Or, put another way, I'd argue that while the parameters for good 
DNS design includes things like simplicity, maintainability, 

Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread cuiling zhang
see bind arm 6.2.26 view Statement Definition and Usage



2013/12/30 Måns Hagström limono...@me.com

 Hi,

 I'm running the same DNS for both my local and global adress-spaces. That
 is, when I'm on my local net, I want the DNS to reply with my
 local 192.168.0.1-address, and when users from the 'outside' global net
 queries my DNS, it shall return the global xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx ip-address.

 My problem is that I have to allocate both the local and the global
 address to the same domain-name, giving the result that both my local and
 global
 ip-address are exposed for the users. Is it possible to isolate the query
 so that the local users get the local ip-address and the global gets the
 global ip-address for the same domain-name?

 I'm running BIND 9.9.2

 BR
 Mons
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R: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread Chiesa Stefano
I use views to manage about 500 mirrored (internal/external) zones and it 
works fine.
 Use views

Views +1 

Stefano.

-Messaggio originale-
Da: bind-users-bounces+stefano.chiesa=wki...@lists.isc.org 
[mailto:bind-users-bounces+stefano.chiesa=wki...@lists.isc.org] Per conto di 
Dnsbed Ops
Inviato: lunedì 30 dicembre 2013 11.03
A: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Oggetto: Re: DNS with several ip adessess

On 2013-12-30 17:38, Abdul Khader wrote:
 Use views

Views +1
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-unix-bind9-named-configure-views/
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Re: R: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread WBrown
  Use views
 
 Views +1 

When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple servers in 
BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, but I didn't 
configure the servers, just maintained the zones.

We're still using multiple servers for internal vs. external resolution.  



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Re: R: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread Jeremy C. Reed
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:

 When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple 
 servers in BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, 
 but I didn't configure the servers, just maintained the zones.

Views were introduced in BIND 9.0.0 (September 2000).
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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread Alan Clegg

On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:

 Use views
 
 Views +1 
 
 When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple servers in 
 BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, but I didn't 
 configure the servers, just maintained the zones.
 
 We're still using multiple servers for internal vs. external resolution.

Views have been in bind “for all recent history”.

I’ve watched this thread and have been biting my tongue as long as I could.

I’m a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you that 
have taken a class that I’ve taught will attest.

I’ve seen too many problems over the years that have been caused by incorrect 
maintenance of both data feeding the views and goofs in the mechanisms making 
sure that the correct view is made available to the correct slave servers (and 
clients).

With today’s hardware (virtualization, etc) it’s not very expensive to build 
out new servers.  Separate the services and you remove lots of the little 
prickly points that will cause you pain as the complexity of your 
infrastructure grows (and as you hand off to the ‘next generation’ of 
maintainers).

I’m actually more a proponent of creating an architecture that doesn’t NEED 
differentiated data, but there aren’t a lot of places implementing DNS / naming 
structures on green-fields these days.

AlanC
-- 
Alan Clegg | +1-919-355-8851 | a...@clegg.com



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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread Johan Ihrén
On 02 Jan 2014, at 16:37 , Alan Clegg a...@clegg.com wrote:

 On Jan 2, 2014, at 9:19 AM, wbr...@e1b.org wrote:
 
 Use views
 
 Views +1 
 
 When were views added to BIND?  We started using using multiple servers in 
 BIND 4, and I don't recall views being available back then, but I didn't 
 configure the servers, just maintained the zones.
 
 We're still using multiple servers for internal vs. external resolution.
 
 Views have been in bind “for all recent history”.
 
 I’ve watched this thread and have been biting my tongue as long as I could.
 
 I’m a proponent of separating servers and NOT using views, as any of you that 
 have taken a class that I’ve taught will attest.
 
 I’ve seen too many problems over the years that have been caused by incorrect 
 maintenance of both data feeding the views and goofs in the mechanisms making 
 sure that the correct view is made available to the correct slave servers 
 (and clients).
 
 With today’s hardware (virtualization, etc) it’s not very expensive to build 
 out new servers.  Separate the services and you remove lots of the little 
 prickly points that will cause you pain as the complexity of your 
 infrastructure grows (and as you hand off to the ‘next generation’ of 
 maintainers).

I could not agree more (as anyone who has attended a class that I've taught 
will attest ;-). 

Furthermore, in addition to the very valid reasons that Alan list, I'd want to 
add yet another reason to implement this via multiple, simple, [virtual] 
servers, rather than using views and that is platform independence. Views are 
a feature specific to BIND9 (and ANS, I think). If I implement this via 
multiple servers then for each server I am free to choose whatever 
implementation is best for that task. If choose a design based on views, I am 
forced to used BIND9.

And while BIND9 may be the best thing since sliced bread, it will not be the 
preferred choice forever.

 I’m actually more a proponent of creating an architecture that doesn’t NEED 
 differentiated data, but there aren’t a lot of places implementing DNS / 
 naming structures on green-fields these days.

I agree with this also.

Johan



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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2014-01-02 Thread Barry S. Finkel

With today's hardware (virtualization, etc) it?s not very expensive to build 
out new servers.


One caveat with using virtual servers.   Make sure that the DNS server
on which the host machine relies is NOT the DNS server that is
virtualized on that host.  The host machine needs to be up before
the VMs residing on that host come up.

--Barry Finkel

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DNS with several ip adessess

2013-12-30 Thread Måns Hagström
Hi,

I'm running the same DNS for both my local and global adress-spaces. That is, 
when I'm on my local net, I want the DNS to reply with my
local 192.168.0.1-address, and when users from the 'outside' global net queries 
my DNS, it shall return the global xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx ip-address.

My problem is that I have to allocate both the local and the global address to 
the same domain-name, giving the result that both my local and global
ip-address are exposed for the users. Is it possible to isolate the query so 
that the local users get the local ip-address and the global gets the global 
ip-address for the same domain-name?

I'm running BIND 9.9.2

BR
Mons
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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2013-12-30 Thread Sten Carlsen
I do this with views, the internal view has recursion the external does not.

I would be interested to hear other ways to do this.


On 30/12/13 10.27, Måns Hagström wrote:
 Hi,

 I'm running the same DNS for both my local and global adress-spaces. That is, 
 when I'm on my local net, I want the DNS to reply with my
 local 192.168.0.1-address, and when users from the 'outside' global net 
 queries my DNS, it shall return the global xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx ip-address.

 My problem is that I have to allocate both the local and the global address 
 to the same domain-name, giving the result that both my local and global
 ip-address are exposed for the users. Is it possible to isolate the query so 
 that the local users get the local ip-address and the global gets the global 
 ip-address for the same domain-name?

 I'm running BIND 9.9.2

 BR
 Mons
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-- 
Best regards

Sten Carlsen

No improvements come from shouting:

   MALE BOVINE MANURE!!! 

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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2013-12-30 Thread Abdul Khader

Use views

Abdul Khader
Engineer/Network Services/SOM
Mobile : 050-153-5461
Extension : 84-5173

On 30/12/2013 1:27 PM, Måns Hagström wrote:

Hi,

I'm running the same DNS for both my local and global adress-spaces. That is, 
when I'm on my local net, I want the DNS to reply with my
local 192.168.0.1-address, and when users from the 'outside' global net queries 
my DNS, it shall return the global xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx ip-address.

My problem is that I have to allocate both the local and the global address to 
the same domain-name, giving the result that both my local and global
ip-address are exposed for the users. Is it possible to isolate the query so 
that the local users get the local ip-address and the global gets the global 
ip-address for the same domain-name?

I'm running BIND 9.9.2

BR
Mons
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Re: DNS with several ip adessess

2013-12-30 Thread Dnsbed Ops

On 2013-12-30 17:38, Abdul Khader wrote:

Use views


Views +1
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-unix-bind9-named-configure-views/
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