[blackbelly] deworming
Hi David, Your question prompts me to reiterate what has become over the years my regular "lecture" on parasite management. These comments are not directed at you, but more to folks new to sheep and new to the Blackbelly listserv. Blackbelly sheep are much more tolerant of a parasite load than other breeds of sheep. So my first rule of thumb is "know thy parasites." Take regular stool samples from your flock and either have your vet do a fecal egg count or learn to do your own. If your sheep have worms, don't necessarily run out and buy dewormer. Depending on the type of worm, blackbellies can withstand the parasite load. The most common worm is Haemonchus Contortus , and a good measure of how your sheep tolerate this worm is to do the Famacha eyelid test. It identifies the level of anemia by comparing the color of the eyelid and comparing it to a chart. You can learn a lot about this test by searching the Internet; a good place to start is http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/meatgoat/FAMACHA.htm For years my vet (a woolie guy) has told me I have a massive worm load in my sheep. (To a woolie shepherd, the only acceptable worm count is zero, yet that is never possible in sheep.) My sheep show no debilitating effects of worms and their eyelids are a healthy dark pink. I have never dewormed my sheep in the 9 years I've had them. I live in Colorado, a cold-winter, arid state that is much less hospitable to worms. If I listened to my vet, I'd be pumping my sheep full of chemicals every other month. So you need to learn what to look for. Each worm has a different set of debilitating symptoms, and your specific geographic region will determine what kind of worms thrive in your area. Am I suggesting that you shouldn't deworm your sheep? No. But by thoughtlessly deworming to prevent something you haven't adequately identified, you increase the likelihood of developing tolerance to dewormers in whatever worm population you might have. And more importantly, you contribute to the overall decrease in worm tolerance that we are seeing in blackbelly sheep. By artificially selecting for sheep who cannot live without deworming medications, you contribute sheep to the gene pool who lack the parasite tolerance that make blackbelly sheep so popular in the first place. Use of more "organic" deworming methods is certainly a good place to start (and I'm glad you're looking into it.). There are no scientifically conducted studies indicating that vinegar, diatomaceous earth, or Shaklee's Basic H detergent have any effect as dewormers, yet I've read many anecdotal reports from list members who say the opposite. Careful pasture rotation is one of the best methods to control parasite counts. Cedar seems to have a natural deworming effect as well. To sum up, the old adage "don't try to fix it if it ain't broke" applies well here. Every time someone asks me about dewormers, I ask them how do they know they have a worm problem. Almost everyone says they read in a book that they need to deworm their sheep, or that their vet told them to. They haven't taken a fecal egg count; they don't know what kind of worms they have; when they do identify the worms, they don't necessarily report any debilitating effects in the sheep. Simply "having worms" seems enough to cause them to run to the dewormer bottle. I'm glad these folks are reading books and talking to their vet. So many people don't. But I have a problem with the idea that the only way to practice good sheep husbandry is to routinely deworm. Should you let your sheep die from a worm load? Only you can answer that question. To some, this is a "natural" death that lets Nature select the hardiest animals to contribute to the gene pool. To others, this seems cruel. One doesn't necessarily need to let an animal suffer from the effects of worms; you can slaughter the animal or otherwise cull it from your flock. But I strongly suggest you prevent these susceptible animals from continuing to produce more susceptible animals that will, eventually, destroy the breeds' reputation for being parasite tolerant. Carol At 06:41 PM 2/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >thanks carol, all the ones i could find used it as a drench. what are your >thought on chemical vs natural? i know sometimes chemical is needed, and not >against it, just thinking of going a little more organic. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] deworming
Carol, Reading your reply makes me feel better about MY vet. I took some stool samples about 3 or 4 years ago to my vet. He told me they had worms. I bought some ivomec and gave them all a "squirt". BUT, my vets advice was NOT to worm them since I hadn't ever wormed them in the 4 to 5 years prior and the sheep were more or less a "hobby" for me. He suggested to apply - "survival of the fittest" - nature's law. He said, "you will most likely lose some along the way, but what lives will only make your flock stronger and eventually you will have a much more parasite resistant/tolerant flock." After worming my sheep I thought long and hard about what the vet said and decided to go for it from then on. It has worked fine. The losses have been few(not sure the few losses I have had were to worms anyway). I haven't lost a single adult and the only lambs that have "come up missing", are 4 to 8 months old. And this is after doubling the size of my flock since then from about 30ish to 60ish on 22 acres (10 acres pasture). The vet cautioned me against getting too overcrowded and also a few words about "pasture rotating". He said you need to rotate them even if it isn't routinely, and if you try to keep too many sheep, no amount of parasite resistance will save them. NOTE: He didn't specify how many "too many" was... I am glad I read about the "eyelid" test, I think I will do it just to see how they measure up. I might even get real ambitious and learn how to do my own fecals and start keeping records! Which reminds me, I also talked recently to my State Vet (about ear tags) and while talking with her I mentioned what I was doing. She raises Katahdins and she was totally blown away with my results. She thought it was an EXCELLENT idea and that I should definitely continue with "no worming". Anyway, they appear to be very healthy. I finally got a digital camera and I have updated my website with some new photos. You can check them out here: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&ext=1&groupid=299233&ck= Thanks, Chris B. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carol J. Elkins Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:59 AM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: [blackbelly] deworming Hi David, Your question prompts me to reiterate what has become over the years my regular "lecture" on parasite management. These comments are not directed at you, but more to folks new to sheep and new to the Blackbelly listserv. Blackbelly sheep are much more tolerant of a parasite load than other breeds of sheep. So my first rule of thumb is "know thy parasites." Take regular stool samples from your flock and either have your vet do a fecal egg count or learn to do your own. If your sheep have worms, don't ecessarily run out and buy dewormer. Depending on the type of worm, blackbellies can withstand the parasite load. The most common worm is Haemonchus Contortus , and a good measure of how your sheep tolerate this worm is to do the Famacha eyelid test. It identifies the level of anemia by comparing the color of the eyelid and comparing it to a chart. You can learn a lot about this test by searching the Internet; a good place to start is http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/meatgoat/FAMACHA.htm ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] deworming
thanks Carol, you are a wealth of knowledge. and thank you for reminding me of how I want a strong flock of blackbellies. Dave - Original Message - From: "Carol J. Elkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: [blackbelly] deworming > Hi David, > > Your question prompts me to reiterate what has become over the years my > regular "lecture" on parasite management. These comments are not directed > at you, but more to folks new to sheep and new to the Blackbelly listserv. > > Blackbelly sheep are much more tolerant of a parasite load than other > breeds of sheep. So my first rule of thumb is "know thy parasites." Take > regular stool samples from your flock and either have your vet do a fecal > egg count or learn to do your own. If your sheep have worms, don't > necessarily run out and buy dewormer. Depending on the type of worm, > blackbellies can withstand the parasite load. The most common worm is > Haemonchus Contortus , and a good measure of how your sheep tolerate this > worm is to do the Famacha eyelid test. It identifies the level of anemia > by > comparing the color of the eyelid and comparing it to a chart. You can > learn a lot about this test by searching the Internet; a good place to > start is http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/meatgoat/FAMACHA.htm > > For years my vet (a woolie guy) has told me I have a massive worm load in > my sheep. (To a woolie shepherd, the only acceptable worm count is zero, > yet that is never possible in sheep.) My sheep show no debilitating > effects > of worms and their eyelids are a healthy dark pink. I have never dewormed > my sheep in the 9 years I've had them. I live in Colorado, a cold-winter, > arid state that is much less hospitable to worms. If I listened to my vet, > I'd be pumping my sheep full of chemicals every other month. So you need > to > learn what to look for. Each worm has a different set of debilitating > symptoms, and your specific geographic region will determine what kind of > worms thrive in your area. > > Am I suggesting that you shouldn't deworm your sheep? No. But by > thoughtlessly deworming to prevent something you haven't adequately > identified, you increase the likelihood of developing tolerance to > dewormers in whatever worm population you might have. And more > importantly, > you contribute to the overall decrease in worm tolerance that we are > seeing > in blackbelly sheep. By artificially selecting for sheep who cannot live > without deworming medications, you contribute sheep to the gene pool who > lack the parasite tolerance that make blackbelly sheep so popular in the > first place. > > Use of more "organic" deworming methods is certainly a good place to start > (and I'm glad you're looking into it.). There are no scientifically > conducted studies indicating that vinegar, diatomaceous earth, or > Shaklee's > Basic H detergent have any effect as dewormers, yet I've read many > anecdotal reports from list members who say the opposite. Careful pasture > rotation is one of the best methods to control parasite counts. Cedar > seems > to have a natural deworming effect as well. > > To sum up, the old adage "don't try to fix it if it ain't broke" applies > well here. Every time someone asks me about dewormers, I ask them how do > they know they have a worm problem. Almost everyone says they read in a > book that they need to deworm their sheep, or that their vet told them to. > They haven't taken a fecal egg count; they don't know what kind of worms > they have; when they do identify the worms, they don't necessarily report > any debilitating effects in the sheep. Simply "having worms" seems enough > to cause them to run to the dewormer bottle. > > I'm glad these folks are reading books and talking to their vet. So many > people don't. But I have a problem with the idea that the only way to > practice good sheep husbandry is to routinely deworm. Should you let your > sheep die from a worm load? Only you can answer that question. To some, > this is a "natural" death that lets Nature select the hardiest animals to > contribute to the gene pool. To others, this seems cruel. One doesn't > necessarily need to let an animal suffer from the effects of worms; you > can > slaughter the animal or otherwise cull it from your flock. But I strongly > suggest you prevent these susceptible animals from continuing to produce > more susceptible animals that will, eventually, destroy the breeds' > reputation for being parasite tolerant. > > Carol > > At 06:41 PM 2/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>thanks carol, all the ones i could find used it as a drench. what are your >>thought on chemical vs natural? i know sometimes chemical is needed, and >>not >>against it, just thinking of going a little more organic. > > ___ > This message is from the blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > http://lists.blackbellys
Re: [blackbelly] deworming
Chris, thanks for the info, I feel more confident after reading about your sheep. Dave Ohio - Original Message - From: "William Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] deworming > Carol, > > Reading your reply makes me feel better about MY vet. > > I took some stool samples about 3 or 4 years ago to my vet. He told me > they > had worms. I bought some ivomec and gave them all a "squirt". > > BUT, my vets advice was NOT to worm them since I hadn't ever wormed them > in > the 4 to 5 years prior and the sheep were more or less a "hobby" for me. > He > suggested to apply - "survival of the fittest" - nature's law. He said, > "you will most likely lose some along the way, but what lives will only > make > your flock stronger and eventually you will have a much more parasite > resistant/tolerant flock." > > After worming my sheep I thought long and hard about what the vet said and > decided to go for it from then on. > > It has worked fine. The losses have been few(not sure the few losses I > have > had were to worms anyway). I haven't lost a single adult and the only > lambs > that have "come up missing", are 4 to 8 months old. And this is after > doubling the size of my flock since then from about 30ish to 60ish on 22 > acres (10 acres pasture). The vet cautioned me against getting too > overcrowded and also a few words about "pasture rotating". He said you > need > to rotate them even if it isn't routinely, and if you try to keep too many > sheep, no amount of parasite resistance will save them. NOTE: He didn't > specify how many "too many" was... > > I am glad I read about the "eyelid" test, I think I will do it just to see > how they measure up. I might even get real ambitious and learn how to do > my > own fecals and start keeping records! > Which reminds me, I also talked recently to my State Vet (about ear tags) > and while talking with her I mentioned what I was doing. She raises > Katahdins and she was totally blown away with my results. She thought it > was > an EXCELLENT idea and that I should definitely continue with "no worming". > > Anyway, they appear to be very healthy. I finally got a digital camera and > I > have updated my website with some new photos. > You can check them out here: > http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&ext=1&groupid=299233&ck= > > > Thanks, > > Chris B. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carol > J. > Elkins > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:59 AM > To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > Subject: [blackbelly] deworming > > Hi David, > > Your question prompts me to reiterate what has become over the years my > regular "lecture" on parasite management. These comments are not directed > at you, but more to folks new to sheep and new to the Blackbelly listserv. > > Blackbelly sheep are much more tolerant of a parasite load than other > breeds of sheep. So my first rule of thumb is "know thy parasites." Take > regular stool samples from your flock and either have your vet do a fecal > egg count or learn to do your own. If your sheep have worms, don't > ecessarily run out and buy dewormer. Depending on the type of worm, > blackbellies can withstand the parasite load. The most common worm is > Haemonchus Contortus , and a good measure of how your sheep tolerate this > worm is to do the Famacha eyelid test. It identifies the level of anemia > by > comparing the color of the eyelid and comparing it to a chart. You can > learn a lot about this test by searching the Internet; a good place to > start is http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/meatgoat/FAMACHA.htm > > > > > ___ > This message is from the blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info > ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info
