Re: [Blackbelly] Blackbelly Digest, Vol 10, Issue 36
Just a follow up note about the coy-dog versus coy-wolf distinction. It has been verified by testing the genetics of trapped coyotes in the northeast that this hybridization with the Canadian Wolf is progressing. The study found that very little dog dna is prevalent in the states bordering Canada. I think the number was less than 3%. It is hypothesized that crosses between dogs and coyotes do occur but their pups are at a disadvantage because the estrus cycles of their offspring are not tied to the spring season. Coyotes and Wolfs cycle to produce pups when easy food like young rabbits, mice and squirrels are available. Coy-wolfs would also cycle to produce pups in the spring but Coy dogs would produce pups at other times of the year and not survive. This may be a new evolutionary trend and so I finding these data very interesting. Joanne Scottsville (near Rochester) NY On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, < blackbelly-requ...@lists.blackbellysheep.info> wrote: > Send Blackbelly mailing list submissions to > blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.blackbellysheep.info/listinfo.cgi/blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > blackbelly-requ...@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > blackbelly-ow...@lists.blackbellysheep.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Blackbelly digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Coyote fence ideas (Cecil R Bearden) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 05:12:41 -0500 > From: Cecil R Bearden > To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info > Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas > Message-ID: <536b5899.9080...@copper.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I am in central Oklahoma, and here, the animal damage control boys tell > me that we have a variety of eastern Coyote that is becoming a > problem. I had coyote problems several years ago and trapped 2 > coyotes, and 3 dogs. We have a local problem here of an individual > taking in every stray dog that comes along, and he took one in that bred > with a coyote bitch that has occupied a den in a field I rent. I saw > her 2 pups last year and they definitely had the head of the stray dog I > referred to. The dog is now gone, thanks to a car, but his legacy lives > on. A coyote is incredibly resourceful at survival both short and long > term. Around here, it will eat the dog or cat food put outside, then it > will eat the dog or cat. Keeping dog food inside and also keeping dogs > neutered and confined to their property will go long way in keeping the > coyote population in check. > > Cecil in OKla > > > On 5/6/2014 2:28 PM, Joanne Vaughn wrote: > > I wish that submitters would indicate what area of the county they are > > posting from. > > It is especially important when one considers a subject like coyotes. > > > > Here in the northeast coyotes are hybridizing with Canadian wolves and > they > > are hunting in groups. > > What may work in Southern California where the coyotes are just slightly > > larger than northeastern > > foxes might not work with a Coy-wolf. > > > > That being said, we live in a coyote high count neighborhood where the > > Coyotes are about the size of > > German Shepherd dogs. This winter we protected 30 sheep and 24 ducks > with > > a woven wire fence, hot wires at top and bottom and 2 standard donkeys > free > > to patrol the paddock at night. The coyotes left evidence that they > scaled > > the 48" woven wire of an adjacent paddock. And they were seen traversing > > adjacent paddocks but did not enter our protected night paddock. > > > > Some say just the scent of donkeys is enough to keep them away but that > is > > not correct. Some say Standards must be required as to have the size > > needed. We had an incident near Buffalo NY where a woman's mini donk was > > attacked by a coyote even as she tried to defend it. A friends 2 minis > ran > > for self preservation and left the sheep to fend for themselves. I have > my > > doubts as to whether a single Donkey would fare well with 2 or more > > coy-wolves in a field. > > > > Last winter the sheep were at a friends farm and she protected them in a > > barn with 2 great Pyrennes locked in with the sheep. She would still have > > to go out with a shot gun from time to time. This seemed like an > > inconvenient method to us. > > > > Joanne > > The Genesee Ewe-ery > > Scottsville NY > > ___ > > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info > > > > -- > > Subject: Digest Footer > > ___ > This da
Re: [Blackbelly] 150 day gestation? How accurate?
well, 7 days after the 150 day period was up. 150 days was April 30, Beatrice dropped a beautiful pair on May 7th. I'd like to hope they are Harpo's lambs. http://mwsmith.smugmug.com/Animals/BeatriceLambs2014/39501829_35R8Gh#!i=3233820778&k=QtgWbtf -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > Thanks, Mark a thoughtful response. I'll keep track of things. It's my own > stupidity that brought this doubt on the scene to begin with. We'll see if I > get a break somehow. > > -Michael Smith, > Perino Ranch Blackbellies > > Sent from my iPad > >> On May 2, 2014, at 7:11 PM, "Mark Wintermute" >> wrote: >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> I have seen lambs delivered nearly a week early to over a week late from >> actual date of service. Basically the lambs are born when mother nature >> says they are ready (in a perfect world). We are lambing right now and it >> started with several ewes apparently conceiving the same day they were put >> with the rams. There is a silent estrus brought on by sudden exposure to >> rams (google ram effect) and the ewe can conceive within the first 48 hours. >> Then around 5 days later they will have full estrus which the rams are more >> reliable with (one week from first exposure to the ewes). Then you start >> the normal 17 day estrus cycle of the ewes. >> >> So if the wrong rams were not with the ewes but for a brief time and they go >> over a week on the possible gestation date you are probably getting lambs >> off your desired sire. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Mark >> >> >> As per my comedy of errors story below: >> >> April 30th was 150 days, and one of the ewes, Beatrice was starting to bag >> up around day 145 or 148 or so. Still no lambs. The other, Jules is >> probably pregnant, but no where near as huge as Beatrice. Jules may not lamb >> for another couple of weeks. Beatrice appears to be ready to drop at any >> time. At least twins, I suspect. >> >> is 150 days pretty accurate for ABs? The two rogue rams got to the ewes 150 >> days before April 30th. I am hoping the girls might not have been in full >> estrus and that when the two rogue rams got to them, nothing happened. Since >> April 30 has came and gone, the more days we get into May, the less chance >> the sire is one of the rogue rams. >> >> On the same day back in December, the ewes were then with the ram I DID want >> as sire for the next 30 days or so, I am hoping he is the sire, and maybe >> got Beatrice pregnant a few days later. >> >> -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. >> >> >> >> ___ >> This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list >> Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
Coyote attack update: My two surviving Pygmy goats ended up needing vet attention. Lucy, especially, had her tongue hanging half out her mouth, 50% of the time, and was actually trying to eat around her tongue hanging out the side of her mouth. Sometimes the poor thing would foam up and make me worried she had the word's fastest-acting case of rabies. The vet had not seen anything quite like this-- without it simply being a broken jaw or worse. I am posting this to the sheep forum in case it helps you folks with survivors of attack. Both Lucy and Lucas were, apparently, saved from the jaws of death by me coming out to investigate that night. The vet and I shaved their necks and they both had tooth punctures and lacerations. Lucy had a bad swelling under her tongue as well as a good sized puncture right under it that might be infected. She was treated with banamine and penicillin (I am still injecting both goats with penicillin for another few days), and she looked much better as short as only 6 hours later. The next day, almost no tongue hanging out at all. Today, even better. It appears the swelling might have been pressing on a nerve for her tongue, but she may also have some permanent nerve damage there. Now, to keep an eye on her for weight loss, and also, cough caused by aspirating liquid. As for my anti-coyote plan going forward: Sheila, my dog is in there 100% of the time, now. And at night I am penning up the goats, and the willing sheep. This way, Sheila does not contend with an acre's worth of fenced pasture with 10 animals splitting up and running all over the place. She simply guards three gates for paddocks (See my lamb pictures for an idea of the size) I have a good lead on a young, possibly bred female llama. But, I am thinking more seriously about a LDG pup to put in with Sheila. BTW: Sheila is not an LGD, she is an Aussie that was rescued and has never been taught to herd. In fact, I've had to discourage her from herding in order to get her to co-exist with the ewes and goats and guard the property in general. But she loves having a job. Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that example. Also, she's more than half through her life, so some new blood would be a good idea. The llama thing, from reading everyone's posts, seems a bit hit and miss. Dogs seem to be everyone's last and best line of defense, from what I am reading. Improved fencing would be next. Electric at the bottom and maybe prison-style angled, barbwire fencing at the top, to prevent them from getting over the top. -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. San Martin, CA. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 3:12 AM, Cecil R Bearden wrote: > I am in central Oklahoma, and here, the animal damage control boys tell me > that we have a variety of eastern Coyote that is becoming a problem. I had > coyote problems several years ago and trapped 2 coyotes, and 3 dogs. We > have a local problem here of an individual taking in every stray dog that > comes along, and he took one in that bred with a coyote bitch that has > occupied a den in a field I rent. I saw her 2 pups last year and they > definitely had the head of the stray dog I referred to. The dog is now gone, > thanks to a car, but his legacy lives on. A coyote is incredibly > resourceful at survival both short and long term. Around here, it will eat > the dog or cat food put outside, then it will eat the dog or cat. Keeping > dog food inside and also keeping dogs neutered and confined to their > property will go long way in keeping the coyote population in check. > > Cecil in OKla > > > > On 5/6/2014 2:28 PM, Joanne Vaughn wrote: >> >> I wish that submitters would indicate what area of the county they are >> posting from. >> It is especially important when one considers a subject like coyotes. >> >> Here in the northeast coyotes are hybridizing with Canadian wolves and >> they >> are hunting in groups. >> What may work in Southern California where the coyotes are just slightly >> larger than northeastern >> foxes might not work with a Coy-wolf. >> >> That being said, we live in a coyote high count neighborhood where the >> Coyotes are about the size of >> German Shepherd dogs. This winter we protected 30 sheep and 24 ducks with >> a woven wire fence, hot wires at top and bottom and 2 standard donkeys >> free >> to patrol the paddock at night. The coyotes left evidence that they scaled >> the 48" woven wire of an adjacent paddock. And they were seen traversing >> adjacent paddocks but did not enter our protected night paddock. >> >> Some say just the scent of donkeys is enough to keep them away but that is >> not correct. Some say Standards must be required as to have the size >> needed. We had an incident near Buffalo NY where a woman's mini donk was >> attacked by a coyote even as she tried to defend it. A friends
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
Wish you were closer Michael. I have a litter of livestock guardian dog puppies being raised with bottle baby lambs right now. The puppies were born April 15th and the lambs are recent. All one happy family. Glad to hear the goats are coming around! Mark Wintermute Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas Coyote attack update: My two surviving Pygmy goats ended up needing vet attention. Lucy, especially, had her tongue hanging half out her mouth, 50% of the time, and was actually trying to eat around her tongue hanging out the side of her mouth. Sometimes the poor thing would foam up and make me worried she had the word's fastest-acting case of rabies. The vet had not seen anything quite like this-- without it simply being a broken jaw or worse. I am posting this to the sheep forum in case it helps you folks with survivors of attack. Both Lucy and Lucas were, apparently, saved from the jaws of death by me coming out to investigate that night. The vet and I shaved their necks and they both had tooth punctures and lacerations. Lucy had a bad swelling under her tongue as well as a good sized puncture right under it that might be infected. She was treated with banamine and penicillin (I am still injecting both goats with penicillin for another few days), and she looked much better as short as only 6 hours later. The next day, almost no tongue hanging out at all. Today, even better. It appears the swelling might have been pressing on a nerve for her tongue, but she may also have some permanent nerve damage there. Now, to keep an eye on her for weight loss, and also, cough caused by aspirating liquid. As for my anti-coyote plan going forward: Sheila, my dog is in there 100% of the time, now. And at night I am penning up the goats, and the willing sheep. This way, Sheila does not contend with an acre's worth of fenced pasture with 10 animals splitting up and running all over the place. She simply guards three gates for paddocks (See my lamb pictures for an idea of the size) I have a good lead on a young, possibly bred female llama. But, I am thinking more seriously about a LDG pup to put in with Sheila. BTW: Sheila is not an LGD, she is an Aussie that was rescued and has never been taught to herd. In fact, I've had to discourage her from herding in order to get her to co-exist with the ewes and goats and guard the property in general. But she loves having a job. Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that example. Also, she's more than half through her life, so some new blood would be a good idea. The llama thing, from reading everyone's posts, seems a bit hit and miss. Dogs seem to be everyone's last and best line of defense, from what I am reading. Improved fencing would be next. Electric at the bottom and maybe prison-style angled, barbwire fencing at the top, to prevent them from getting over the top. -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies. San Martin, CA. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
Michael, Most LGDs believe that a good offense is the best defense and will network with the entire neighborhood to keep current on the state of affairs. Networking in this sense is barking. And LGDs need to bark long before there is a problem to ensure that whatever is out there doesn't become a problem. In my experience, there are over-barky LGDs, but I have found that my minimalist LGDs still bark at things that I don't perceive as problems. Like you, my farm was victim to a combined cougar/coyote attack that killed and consumed 5 90-lb lambs. I lived under siege until I could purchase my LGDs. They were 6 months old when they arrived (they don't become adults until they are 2 years old), but they had their adult bark. That bark is what I have relied on ever since they arrived in 2008 to keep my farm safe. Yes, it can be really annoying at times (full moons are particularly problematic), but I have ear plugs. Carol At 03:50 PM 5/9/2014, you wrote: Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that example. Carol Elkins Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep (no shear, no dock, no fuss) Pueblo, Colorado http://www.critterhaven.biz ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
I have Tibetan Mastiffs for my LGDs. They are bred to bark just to bark, to keep things away, not to bark just when something is approaching. I hear coyotes around us but they seem to stay away from our property so far. Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Carol Elkins wrote: > > Michael, > > Most LGDs believe that a good offense is the best defense and will network > with the entire neighborhood to keep current on the state of affairs. > Networking in this sense is barking. And LGDs need to bark long before there > is a problem to ensure that whatever is out there doesn't become a problem. > In my experience, there are over-barky LGDs, but I have found that my > minimalist LGDs still bark at things that I don't perceive as problems. Like > you, my farm was victim to a combined cougar/coyote attack that killed and > consumed 5 90-lb lambs. I lived under siege until I could purchase my LGDs. > They were 6 months old when they arrived (they don't become adults until they > are 2 years old), but they had their adult bark. That bark is what I have > relied on ever since they arrived in 2008 to keep my farm safe. Yes, it can > be really annoying at times (full moons are particularly problematic), but I > have ear plugs. > > Carol > > > At 03:50 PM 5/9/2014, you wrote: >> Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a >> problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to >> us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that >> example. > > Carol Elkins > Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep > (no shear, no dock, no fuss) > Pueblo, Colorado > http://www.critterhaven.biz > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
My Great Pyrenees cross dogs bark... a lot. They bark at the hawks and vultures in the sky. And I laugh when I see these birds feel the need to fly higher. I have been out at 2:00 am checking on my sheep in the pasture. It is awesome to see those glowing eyes closing in on you at full speed. And the change from aggression mode to the "awe shucks it's you, what are you doing out here?". The donkeys do mosey over for a good petting while the dogs go back to the sheep. When the dogs bark it is definitely directed at something. I just don't have the senses to know what that something is. Mark -Original Message- From: Blackbelly [mailto:blackbelly-boun...@lists.blackbellysheep.info] On Behalf Of Jann Bach Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 10:01 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Cc: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas I have Tibetan Mastiffs for my LGDs. They are bred to bark just to bark, to keep things away, not to bark just when something is approaching. I hear coyotes around us but they seem to stay away from our property so far. Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Carol Elkins wrote: > > Michael, > > Most LGDs believe that a good offense is the best defense and will network with the entire neighborhood to keep current on the state of affairs. Networking in this sense is barking. And LGDs need to bark long before there is a problem to ensure that whatever is out there doesn't become a problem. In my experience, there are over-barky LGDs, but I have found that my minimalist LGDs still bark at things that I don't perceive as problems. Like you, my farm was victim to a combined cougar/coyote attack that killed and consumed 5 90-lb lambs. I lived under siege until I could purchase my LGDs. They were 6 months old when they arrived (they don't become adults until they are 2 years old), but they had their adult bark. That bark is what I have relied on ever since they arrived in 2008 to keep my farm safe. Yes, it can be really annoying at times (full moons are particularly problematic), but I have ear plugs. > > Carol > > > At 03:50 PM 5/9/2014, you wrote: >> Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a >> problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to >> us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that >> example. > > Carol Elkins > Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep (no shear, no > dock, no fuss) Pueblo, Colorado http://www.critterhaven.biz > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's > homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3931/7467 - Release Date: 05/09/14 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Coyote fence ideas
This is all great feedback on the LGDs thanks, folks. Mark I am sorry I am not closer. Would love to buy a pup. Here they cost about $500. (Not sure how much you get, though;-P Carol your minimalist barkers sound like my Aussie Sheila. She's fine in my book. What she does not do is just go on a 1-hour 2am lonesome barking jag that does not stop. I would not be able to deal with that, even with earplugs, which I do use. For her, there's always at least a reason in her mind to bark. Sometimes she joins in on the local dog chorus of full moon baying and if I don't like it I let her know and she's pretty good about stopping. When I saw her growl and chase away that full grown coyote the second night, I realized what a fool I had been to take her to the next pasture while two perfectly safe ewes, in a closed paddock, had lambs. Why I was so concerned about their stress levels is beyond me. Now I know the reason the last attackers last year never came back was soley because of Sheila being in there all last year. Not a bad use for an untrained herder. -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies Sent from my iPad > On May 9, 2014, at 4:30 PM, Carol Elkins wrote: > > Michael, > > Most LGDs believe that a good offense is the best defense and will network > with the entire neighborhood to keep current on the state of affairs. > Networking in this sense is barking. And LGDs need to bark long before there > is a problem to ensure that whatever is out there doesn't become a problem. > In my experience, there are over-barky LGDs, but I have found that my > minimalist LGDs still bark at things that I don't perceive as problems. Like > you, my farm was victim to a combined cougar/coyote attack that killed and > consumed 5 90-lb lambs. I lived under siege until I could purchase my LGDs. > They were 6 months old when they arrived (they don't become adults until they > are 2 years old), but they had their adult bark. That bark is what I have > relied on ever since they arrived in 2008 to keep my farm safe. Yes, it can > be really annoying at times (full moons are particularly problematic), but I > have ear plugs. > > Carol > > > At 03:50 PM 5/9/2014, you wrote: >> Sheila is a good dog in that she only barks when there's really a >> problem. Living only 30-40 feet from the house, that is important to >> us. I'd like to at least try to get the pup to learn from that >> example. > > Carol Elkins > Critterhaven--Registered Barbados Blackbelly Hair Sheep > (no shear, no dock, no fuss) > Pueblo, Colorado > http://www.critterhaven.biz > > ___ > This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list > Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
