I disagree- the default in Windows apps seems to be the hidden mode, and it seems counterintuitive to implement windows like scrollbars without mirroring the actual Windows experience. I realize it probably won't be the default mode, but if it's possible to at least leave it as a setting for the users that wish to use it, that would be great. On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:28:07 PM UTC-7 Ben Mathwig wrote:
> I agree with both of these things. I'm in support of removing the "hidden" > state all together, for all scrollers. > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 3:34:35 PM UTC-7 sko...@chromium.org wrote: > >> My own view is that it is user-hostile to fully hide scrollbars, because >> then you have no visual indication that a region of the page is >> scrollable. Though it does seem that this ship has sailed on other OS'es. >> >> Orthogonal to that concern, I think the web platform should try to avoid >> giving different behavior to root and non-root scrollers. So if we decide >> hidden scrollbars are a good idea, then we should hide them for the root >> scroller too (when the cursor leaves the content area). >> >> But I'd ideally like to have only the minimal and full modes, and not the >> hidden mode, for all scrollers. >> >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 6:16 PM 'Ben Mathwig' via blink-dev < >> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm glad you brought this up, it's something we'd like to get your take >>> on. Windows designed it that way in their official spec, but I personally >>> feel like it creates an accessibility issue. I believe Apple hides the >>> panning indicator on macOS, so I suspect their design inspiration came from >>> there. >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:31:07 PM UTC-7 sko...@chromium.org >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for sharing these docs. >>>> >>>> I am curious about the rationale for "Hidden Mode" as described in the >>>> visual >>>> spec >>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw/edit>. >>>> >>>> Why is this mode desired only for non-root scrollers? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 4:33 PM Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just checking in to see if anyone got a chance to review the doc. >>>>> >>>>> Please let us know if you have any questions/concerns (or if it looks >>>>> good as-is). 😊 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:48 PM >>>>> *To:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev >>>>> <blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; >>>>> wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; >>>>> input-dev <inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy < >>>>> yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; >>>>> Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig < >>>>> benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here’s the design doc. Please have a look at it and let us know what >>>>> you think. 😊 >>>>> >>>>> FluentScrollbarsDesignDoc - Google Docs >>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YDigd2XlAw0Lj5cQ5S-mGzntLZghLRUJ_wKLsCBxsuw/edit> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 8, 2022 9:24 AM >>>>> *To:* 'Chris Harrelson' <chri...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev >>>>> <blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; >>>>> wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; >>>>> input-dev <inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy < >>>>> yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; >>>>> Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig < >>>>> benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sounds good Chris, we’ll send out a class design doc shortly to get >>>>> everyone on the same page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re Manuel: Thanks for your input, we’ll come up with a plan to keep >>>>> non-overlay scrollbars tests running as well.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:28 PM >>>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev >>>>> <blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; >>>>> wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; >>>>> input-dev <inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy < >>>>> yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; >>>>> Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig < >>>>> benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022, 10:00 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev < >>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Just checking in on this.. Please let us know if you need anything >>>>> from us to move this discussion along. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Rahul, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Since this is an intent to implement you don't need any official >>>>> approval from an API owner. Feel free to start landing code. Let me know >>>>> if >>>>> you run into any issues, happy to help unblock progress. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 11:43 AM >>>>> *To:* 'Steve Kobes' <sko...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Cc:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; >>>>> blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu >>>>> <wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; >>>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov < >>>>> gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben >>>>> Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re Steve: For Linux, we don't have a strong preference on the default >>>>> scrollbar mode (and we don’t yet know the scope of work needed since we >>>>> never tested this feature on Linux). >>>>> >>>>> For Windows however, we recommend having minimal mode as the default >>>>> as outlined in the visual spec >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re all: Please let us know if we all have consensus on the visual >>>>> styling >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> >>>>> of the scrollbars. If you want to see the feature in action, please feel >>>>> free to check out Microsoft Edge Canary >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoftedgeinsider.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fcanary&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=X%2BvICikSWgyvetSfBzwR6EAAqdSmxU6EXosFJSqdzCM%3D&reserved=0>. >>>>> >>>>> (Experimental flag *edge://flags/#edge-overlay-scrollbars-win-style*). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 11:38 AM >>>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Cc:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; >>>>> blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu >>>>> <wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; >>>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov < >>>>> gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben >>>>> Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Keeping non-overlay by default on Linux would be one way to mitigate >>>>> the risk that Ian mentions, namely that bugs specific to non-overlay mode >>>>> may creep in and not be noticed quickly. (This concern applies to some >>>>> degree both to bugs in websites, and bugs in Chrome.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 2:23 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via input-dev < >>>>> inpu...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Ian :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re Chris: >>>>> >>>>> There will be some OS wiring missing (like switching between >>>>> dark/light modes, "Always show scrollbars”, etc) but most of the code >>>>> should just work. Note that we've never really tested this feature on >>>>> Linux >>>>> so we do not have an exhaustive list of stuff that will not work on Linux. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2022 3:45 PM >>>>> *To:* Ian Kilpatrick <ikilp...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Cc:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com>; Mike Taylor < >>>>> mike...@chromium.org>; blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack < >>>>> fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; >>>>> p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; Yaroslav Shalivskyy < >>>>> yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; >>>>> Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig < >>>>> benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re Linux: I'm hoping we can just use the same code on Linux so that we >>>>> have overlay scrollbars everywhere. Rahul, would that work code-wise? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 3:40 PM Ian Kilpatrick <ikilp...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Exciting! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adding onto Rahul's answer here a little - overlay scrollbars (or >>>>> scrollbars which take to zero space) already exist on other platforms >>>>> (e.g. >>>>> they are the default on OSX). It won't/shouldn't be a web compat concern >>>>> as >>>>> most websites handle this already. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> An interesting side effect of this will likely be that we'll see more >>>>> sites (who are built after this change goes in) assume that scrollbars >>>>> are >>>>> always zero width (as this is now the default on all platforms except >>>>> linux?) and as a result more content going forward being broken for those >>>>> users who opt-out. >>>>> >>>>> (To be clear there isn't much we can do about this - but an >>>>> interesting side effect). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev < >>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sure, I’ve created a chromestatus entry here: >>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5693137379917824 >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchromestatus.com%2Ffeature%2F5693137379917824&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vfppOwtYwtmQrwqiprbugzqPulbVNcuag1WFpo5m60Q%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> >>>>> And yes, this proposed change is expected to have an impact on the >>>>> page’s layout. In it’s default state, the scrollbars will be in “minimal >>>>> mode” (aka overlay scrollbars). These will *not* take up any layout >>>>> space (whereas, today in Chromium, the default scrollbars take up 17px >>>>> AFAIK). >>>>> >>>>> The users will however still have an option to “Always show >>>>> scrollbars” via an OS setting. These *will* take up layout space >>>>> (similar to what Chromium scrollbars do today). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Rahul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM >>>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Cc:* blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; >>>>> wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; >>>>> inpu...@chromium.org; Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; >>>>> Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani < >>>>> sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>>> Scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Rahul, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Would you mind creating a chromestatus entry for this intent? (See >>>>> "Step 0" at http://dev.chromium.org/blink/launching-features >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.chromium.org%2Fblink%2Flaunching-features&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=oeqZVkHsRXN%2FzGeO9BceS4FNDQ9LjZfrnQZTB8Xc4Uc%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> >>>>> for a link). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also, out of curiosity (because I don't know much about scrollbars) - >>>>> will this proposed change have an impact on a page's layout? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1/28/22 2:50 PM, 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>> >>>>> *Intent to implement: Fluent Scrollbars.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Contact emails* >>>>> >>>>> Rahul Arakeri: ara...@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy: yshal...@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> Sahir Vellani: sahir....@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> Olga Gerchikov: gerc...@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> Ben Mathwig: benjamin...@microsoft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Visual Spec* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw/edit >>>>> >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Summary* >>>>> >>>>> This proposal is to modernize the Chromium scrollbars (both overlay >>>>> and non-overlay) to fit the Windows 11 Fluent design language. As a part >>>>> of >>>>> this effort, we are proposing to update the visual appearance along with >>>>> some changes to how users interact with overlay scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Motivation* >>>>> >>>>> As the rest of Windows has been embracing WinUI and native Fluent >>>>> controls, certain non-XAML apps like Chromium-based browsers still use >>>>> the >>>>> traditional (Win32 looking) scrollbars. As such, we believe that the >>>>> visual >>>>> appearance of scrollbars could use an update in the interest of >>>>> maintaining >>>>> homogeneity with the rest of Windows. >>>>> >>>>> In a nutshell, we’re proposing that the default scrollbars should act >>>>> more like overlay scrollbars, be thinner, have insets and rounded edges. >>>>> Users will still have an option to select non overlay scrollbars via the >>>>> "Always show scrollbars" OS setting. Non overlay scrollbars will also be >>>>> restyled to match Windows theme. For details on scrollbar styling and >>>>> state >>>>> transitions, please see the visual spec linked above. >>>>> >>>>> Also, please note that since some HTML controls (like <textarea> and >>>>> <select>) depend on the ScrollbarThemes(s) that are being refreshed, they >>>>> too will also get the new scrollbars. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?* >>>>> >>>>> No, this is aimed at Windows for now. However, it can be made >>>>> available on Linux too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Ongoing technical constraints* >>>>> >>>>> None. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Tracking bug* >>>>> >>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1292117 >>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.chromium.org%2Fp%2Fchromium%2Fissues%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D1292117&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122796656%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=JVa%2FN%2FrTCNHWNnA4ZScgXpcm6a%2Fv7cDhum%2BLmcTygo0%3D&reserved=0> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> 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