Re: ADV: Re: redhat itself

[Sam Hartman]

> "Janina" == Janina Sajka  writes:

Janina> Hi, Sam: Well, you've certainly made my ears stam up
Janina> straight! 

Janina> My work has been almost exclusively standards over the past
Janina> dacde, primarily Linux Foundation -- which we need to
Janina> reinvigorate, W3C which is highly productive just now, and
Janina> also ISO SC35 the subcommittee on user interfaces.

Janina> What are your standardization interests, if I may ask and
Janina> you'd be willing to say more?

Entirely unrelated to accessibility.
A lot of Internet security stuff.

See  http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/samhartman.html  for my IETF
stuff.

My previous company also did work with Open Flow and with Smart Grid.  I
didn't end up being named on anything but had discussions with our
engineers on those projects.

It's not directly standards work, but I currently sit on the Debian
Technical Committee.

I think I would be a good person to work with in the following ways:

* I understand Linux technology.  I care about accessibility, but I also
  care about the challenges developers and product owners face.  I'm
  totally happy to use GUIs, touch screens, and the like when I can
  actually use them and get work done.  However I'm happy to scream
  loudly when something like the VMware console situation gets in the
  way of people doing their jobs.

* I'm reasonably good at explaining accessibility issue to developers
  and I think I'm reasonably good at explaining the technical challenges
  to non-technical accessibility advocates.

* I'm good at building consensus.

* I think I would come across very positively giving testimony in a lot
  of these issues.

If I'm not needed, that's great.  I have plenty of interesting problems
to work on in security, Debian, and non-technical work.  But if there
are specific projects where getting someone like me involved might
really help, I do care that blind IT professionals like myself are able
to succeed.  I am also happy to stand as an another example that when we
succeed at accessibility, IT opens really amazing opportunities.

--Sam

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Re: ADV: Re: redhat itself

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Sam:

Well, you've certainly made my ears stam up straight! 

My work has been almost exclusively standards over the past dacde,
primarily Linux Foundation -- which we need to reinvigorate, W3C which
is highly productive just now, and also ISO SC35 the subcommittee on
user interfaces.

What are your standardization interests, if I may ask and you'd be
willing to say more?

Janina

Sam Hartman writes:
> I've never been involved in regulatory work and have not generally been
> involved in advocacy work within the blind community.
> However, I have been fairly involved in   international standards work
> which is somewhat related to regulatory work.  I have a very solid
> senior technology resume as well as a background in building consensus
> and helping people understand complex issues.
> 
> I'm not looking for more work, but I agree this issue is important.
> If anyone here is in a position where getting someone like me involved
> would be helpful, I'd be happy to discuss.  I have a good track record
> on following through on the things I do agree to do.
> 
> 
> --Sam

-- 

Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net
Email:  jan...@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: redhat itself

[John G Heim]

Well, this goes back to the reason I helped create the International 
Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists. There doesn't seem to be 
anybody taking systems admin accessibility seriously. I talked to Curtis 
Chong of the NFB about this. The NFB spends a lot of it's resources 
talking to Microsoft about fairly minor accessibility flaws in Excel, 
Word, etc or to Amazon and Netfliks about the accessibility of their web 
sites. I argued that something like the Red Hat kernel not having 
console speech was more important because that could cost a sys admin 
his job. In fact, I know that things like that cost sys admins their 
jobs because I've seen it. You may not be fired for not being able to 
access the console on your servers. But what happens is that someone 
else is given all the duties involved with console access. It's one 
thing after another like that and pretty soon, your entire job consists 
of nothing more than helping people change their passwords. And when 
layoffs come around, you're the one to go. And that's only fair -- after 
all, you are the least valuable person in the department. I've seen this 
happen often enough that I even coined a term for it. I call it "getting 
backwatered".


I doubt that not having console speech is a huge problem for more than a 
handful of blind systems admins. But it is just one more brick in the wall.




On 08/11/2016 08:49 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi, John:

It's certainly possible to build rpms with the staging modules for
Fedora. I used to do that years ago. Bill Acker kept up with doing that
in recent years. While he wasn't the maintainer at rpmfusion for that
particular package, builds did seem to cease about the time of his
demise.

I'm also surprised that others weren't clamoring for these drivers for
their own, non Speakup related reasons, but I never did find any
discussion like that. I filed bugs with each new Fedora release, but
nothing happened. In fact the very last release at rpmfusion never
worked because of broken dependencies. I've been sitting on a 4.0.3
kernel until I finally switched to Arch. Key functionality on my systems
had begun to break, for example linphone.

Yes, there was the option for me to take over building these rpms.
However, it's not were I want to focus my efforts these days. I
certainly thought about it. After all, there's a good deal of
dislocation involved in switching distributions. Not everything works
the same way, and I've already bumped into a need for workarounds.

Fedora is certainly a major Linux distribution with much to recommend
it, but easy use of Speakup is no longer one of its attributes. On the
other hand I'm not aware of anyone using RHEL with Speakup. Certainly,
there maybe someone who's figured that out. I can categorically report
that Bill Acker failed in his attempts to build RHEL kernels with
Speakup support, though these efforts took place some years ago. I'm not
aware that he tried post 3.x, for instance.

Lastly, I should add that the very argument you're making is one I tried
making with the U.S. Access Board when the first Sec. 508 regulations
were being written.  Doug Wakefield didn't agree, and my argument was
not accepted, and Redhat, among others,  was able to slither off the
hook around low-level systems accessibility.

Janina

John G Heim writes:

Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that
you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it
would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the
console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems
admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job.
Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat.
The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses
debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be
stuck with RH.


I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do
serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other
people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely
there must be the equivalent of a ppa.




On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi,

Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
modules since kernel 4.0.4.

So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
distros. I chose the latter.

I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
Speakup on that machine, of course.

Janina

Willem van der Walt writes:

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
but it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it
or Fedora without problems.
HTH, Willem


On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:


Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an accessible 
distro?

Re: redhat itself

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, John:

It's certainly possible to build rpms with the staging modules for
Fedora. I used to do that years ago. Bill Acker kept up with doing that
in recent years. While he wasn't the maintainer at rpmfusion for that
particular package, builds did seem to cease about the time of his
demise.

I'm also surprised that others weren't clamoring for these drivers for
their own, non Speakup related reasons, but I never did find any
discussion like that. I filed bugs with each new Fedora release, but
nothing happened. In fact the very last release at rpmfusion never
worked because of broken dependencies. I've been sitting on a 4.0.3
kernel until I finally switched to Arch. Key functionality on my systems
had begun to break, for example linphone.

Yes, there was the option for me to take over building these rpms.
However, it's not were I want to focus my efforts these days. I
certainly thought about it. After all, there's a good deal of
dislocation involved in switching distributions. Not everything works
the same way, and I've already bumped into a need for workarounds.

Fedora is certainly a major Linux distribution with much to recommend
it, but easy use of Speakup is no longer one of its attributes. On the
other hand I'm not aware of anyone using RHEL with Speakup. Certainly,
there maybe someone who's figured that out. I can categorically report
that Bill Acker failed in his attempts to build RHEL kernels with
Speakup support, though these efforts took place some years ago. I'm not
aware that he tried post 3.x, for instance.

Lastly, I should add that the very argument you're making is one I tried
making with the U.S. Access Board when the first Sec. 508 regulations
were being written.  Doug Wakefield didn't agree, and my argument was
not accepted, and Redhat, among others,  was able to slither off the
hook around low-level systems accessibility.

Janina

John G Heim writes:
> Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that
> you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it
> would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the
> console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems
> admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job.
> Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat.
> The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses
> debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be
> stuck with RH.
> 
> 
> I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do
> serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other
> people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely
> there must be the equivalent of a ppa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
> > Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
> > modules since kernel 4.0.4.
> > 
> > So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
> > distros. I chose the latter.
> > 
> > I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
> > Speakup on that machine, of course.
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Willem van der Walt writes:
> > > Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
> > > but it is accessible.
> > > I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running 
> > > it
> > > or Fedora without problems.
> > > HTH, Willem
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an 
> > > > accessible distro?
> > > > 
> > > > Everything happens after coffee!
> > > > 
> > > > Mark Peveto
> > > > Registered Linux user number 600552
> > > > Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14
> > > > 
> > > > ___
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> > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > --
> > > 
> > > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, 
> > > e-mail
> > > legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The 
> > > full
> > > disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
> > > 
> > > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> -- 
> --
> John G. Heim; jh...@math.wisc.edu; sip://jh...@sip.linphone.org
> 
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sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net

Re: redhat itself

[Janina Sajka]

Phil:

I want to make sure I understand ...

Are you saying that console level access is explicitly disallowed by
policy? I would presume that's some kind of security decision?

Phil Rigby writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I use Red Hat Enterprise Linux, (RHEL), all the time at work. We manage
> servers running RHEL, a lot of them Dell Poweredge rack mounts or Dell
> blades. When new hardware comes in, I try to get them to set up things so
> that the serial over LAN settings in the BIOS are enabled and, with a couple
> of tweaks to the grub.conf file, I can get the RHEL  console redirected and
> then I ssh to the ILO/IDRAC card where I then have full console access so
> that I can solve boot up issues or access the server when all its network
> interfaces are dead.
> 
> It is very rare these days that I actually do an OS installation as we have
> kickstart files which run OS installs these days so they come up as a
> standard build for a customer.
> 
> In this environment, it doesn't matter a bit really what flavour of Linux is
> used. It isn't Linux that is accessible or not. If you have ssh access to
> the console and then, once the OS is up and running, via any network
> connection, you can do everything whatever the Linux flavour.
> 
> Now this is fine for the good old physical server world. My big problem is
> that so much is going virtual now. We use VMWare for virtualisation and I
> just cannot access the console of a VMWare VM running RHEL because these
> seem only to be accessible through horrible Java GUI's which are only seen
> through vCenter. To get to vCenter across a network, I would need to RDP
> from a terminal server which is impossible. Even if I could do this, I
> couldn't use the Java GUI as that is hopeless with most screen readers I
> know. Before anyone suggests it, there is No such thing as direct access to
> vCenter with a command line interface in the corporate world. I've tried for
> it. You have my employer's corporate network policies, the customer's own
> access policies and everything else blocking this.
> 
> I have asked before on here if anyone has solutions in this area and I only
> met with sympathy as several other people seem to have hit the same problem
> but not yet found a solution.
> 
> I just hope physical servers stay around a bit longer.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com]
> On Behalf Of John G Heim
> Sent: 10 August 2016 16:48
> To: Linux for blind general discussion
> Subject: Re: redhat itself
> 
> Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that
> you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it
> would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the
> console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems
> admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job.
> Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat.
> The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses
> debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be
> stuck with RH.
> 
> 
> I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do
> serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other
> people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely
> there must be the equivalent of a ppa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need 
> > Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging 
> > modules since kernel 4.0.4.
> >
> > So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching 
> > distros. I chose the latter.
> >
> > I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use 
> > Speakup on that machine, of course.
> >
> > Janina
> >
> > Willem van der Walt writes:
> >> Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for 
> >> that, but it is accessible.
> >> I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still 
> >> running it or Fedora without problems.
> >> HTH, Willem
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an
> accessible distro?
> >>>
> >>> Everything happens after coffee!
> >>>
> >>> Mark Peveto
> >>> Registered Linux user number 600552
> >>> Sent from sonar 

Re: redhat itself

[John G Heim]

Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so 
that you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If 
not, it would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at 
the console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most 
systems admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use 
in their job. Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department 
used to run Red Hat. The campus had a site license. The Math Department, 
where I work, uses debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another 
department, I'd probably be stuck with RH.



I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do 
serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other 
people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely 
there must be the equivalent of a ppa.





On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi,

Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
modules since kernel 4.0.4.

So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
distros. I chose the latter.

I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
Speakup on that machine, of course.

Janina

Willem van der Walt writes:

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
but it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it
or Fedora without problems.
HTH, Willem


On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:


Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an accessible 
distro?

Everything happens after coffee!

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14

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Re: redhat itself

[Janina Sajka]

Hi,

Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
modules since kernel 4.0.4.

So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
distros. I chose the latter.

I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
Speakup on that machine, of course.

Janina

Willem van der Walt writes:
> Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
> but it is accessible.
> I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it
> or Fedora without problems.
> HTH, Willem
> 
> 
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:
> 
> > Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an 
> > accessible distro?
> > 
> > Everything happens after coffee!
> > 
> > Mark Peveto
> > Registered Linux user number 600552
> > Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14
> > 
> > ___
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> > 
> 
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> 
> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail
> legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full
> disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
> 
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> 
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Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net
Email:  jan...@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: redhat itself

[Jude DaShiell]

Janina gave up on Fedora and is now using archlinux and posted to that 
effect earlier on this list.


On Wed, 10 Aug 2016, Willem van der Walt wrote:


Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:35:01
From: Willem van der Walt <wvdw...@csir.co.za>
Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: redhat itself

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, but 
it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it 
or Fedora without problems.

HTH, Willem


On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:

Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an 
accessible distro?


Everything happens after coffee!

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14

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Re: redhat itself

[Willem van der Walt]

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, 
but it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running 
it or Fedora without problems.

HTH, Willem


On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:


Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an accessible 
distro?

Everything happens after coffee!

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14

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The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. 

Please consider the environment before printing this email. 


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