Re: [Bloat] [EXT] Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Talk now up: How the internet really works
Vint is opening our next TTI/V meeting ... he has big shoes to fill 😊 -Original Message- From: Dave Taht Sent: Friday, March 11, 2022 7:52 AM To: Vint Cerf Cc: James Hurley ; Vasu Kaker ; Make-Wifi-fast ; starl...@lists.bufferbloat.net; bloat ; Josh Mermel ; Jamie Tucker-Foltz ; Yao, Lisa (US) Subject: [EXT] Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Talk now up: How the internet really works On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 8:20 PM Vint Cerf wrote: > > just watching the first few minutes I could tell this was going to be a > really fun talk - will watch the rest soon. I cavort on the shoulders of giants! I'm going to give myself an "A" for concept, but a "B" for performance. The latter half could have gone a bit faster, and one of the more difficult tricks, where one person already juggling tosses a ball (new flow) to another to incorporate it into their flows, was too hard to do, and didn't come off. Bunch of other flaws - notably I'd to say over and over again it would be better to think about an optimum for a low latency metaverse-capable internet would be for everyone to think more about "steady kilobits per millisecond". It's very hard to express how fair queuing works, also, correctly, in the context of this talk. There are quite a few other networking concepts that I hope could be explained in this way, the difficulties with doing full duplex wireless using a water ballon to splatter the reciever was originally part of the act but I cut it in deference to the hotel staff! > Dave, you should consider stand-up... :-))) I've been thinking about retiring, and opening up a comedy club in Starbase, Texas, with a marachi band on sundays. After working on theory, code, standards, and serious publications for so long, and being trapped behind zoom for the past 3 years, I needed an live outlet, like this, to stretch out a bit. I miss the high speed interactions you get out of "improv" for example, that's not a zoom-able thing. After the conference Bruce invited me to a musical jam which was *awesome* and also an example of what cannot presently be done well over the present day internet. One day, I hope. It was so great to get out and do this, and perhaps I'll do it again one day or film it more carefully and not live. If y'all would like a mostly serious explanation of many of the problems wifi has (With a fun explanation towards the end of what all OSes had been getting most wrong about wifi until then), please see the 8 minute segment here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1550s or, preferably, pass the whole thing to someone making wifi chips and drivers. The related paper is rather dry in comparison, unless you get excited about 10x reductions of network latency across the board in cdf plots. https://www.usenix.org/conference/atc17/technical-sessions/presentation/hoilan-jorgesen - a huge (and still flailing) goal for me has been to get the now standard linux APIs for that into more wifi chipsets than just Intel's, mediatek mt76, qualcomm ath9k and ath10k chips. PS The only way I can think of to express how wireless signals degrade over distance while using jugglers is via CGI, making the balls diffuse and shrinking... Other ideas for how to express the inverse square law simply, welcomed! PPS (I'm quite curious as to how good the vanguard talk looked over the much lower frame rate zoom participants, and how much freezing or distortion of the feed they had) > v > > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 9:25 AM James Hurley wrote: >> >> Great talk Dave & MIT jugglers >> >> Dave is there any chance you can share the slides you were presenting in the >> video? >> >> > On 8 Mar 2022, at 16:07, Dave Taht wrote: >> > >> > My talk last week at TTI Vanguard is now up on youtube. I used no >> > slides, and a bunch of new simple analogies (including the world's >> > most elaborate "rickroll"!) to explain the problems >> > videoconferencing and voice have with competing with web traffic, >> > with bits about cryptography, packet loss, bufferbloat, fair >> > queueing and active queue management across all our access >> > technologies today, as well as some notes as to the NTIA broadband >> > programs and ongoing FCC measurements. >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWViGcBlnm0 >> > ube.com >> > >> > My special thanks to Len and Nancy Kleinrock, and to Lisa Yao, CEO >> > of TTI Vanguard, for sponsoring my talk and travel. Plug: There >> > were a bunch of very interesting other talks at that conference >> > (including one amazing one on quantum computing that went over my >> > head >> > completely) that I enjoyed greatly. A huge thx also to my >> > volunteers, Jamie, Vasu, and Joshua, who went the extra mile to help out. >> > >> > I am of course trying to reach new audiences outside our circle >> > with my talk, please reshare widely? >> > >> > -- >> > I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
Re: [Bloat] FWA Test Results
That unloaded ping off pretty good, it must be from 5G SA. I’m with T-Mobile no 5G SA yet, I’m in the 60s for unloaded. On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 1:51 PM Livingood, Jason via Bloat < bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > This is from a colleague that was using 5G FWA at home. Their computer was > connected to the gateway via Ethernet and the gateway was next to a glass > door with LoS to the tower ~0.25 mi away (no tree/leaf or other > obstructions). So definitely a best case for location in the home & > connectivity to the RAN and no competing LAN traffic at the time of the > test. > > > > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=55167384-3ee5-4f5d-a1ea-131458b231f6 > > > > Jason > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Talk now up: How the internet really works
I loved this video! > On Mar 11, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 8:20 PM Vint Cerf wrote: >> >> just watching the first few minutes I could tell this was going to be a >> really fun talk - will watch the rest soon. > > > I cavort on the shoulders of giants! Excellent! You do it so admirably! > I'm going to give myself an "A" for concept, but a "B" for > performance. > The latter half could have gone a bit faster, and one of > the more difficult tricks,... Nope. "A" for concept, and "A" for performance. I teach juggling (semi-professionally - I'm TheJugglerMan.com) and this was a first-rate show. All the more impressive since the three jugglers probably only had a short time to internalize your script and rehearse the tricks. I especially liked how the initial club exchanges made them look like inexperienced jugglers - using two hands to throw and catch. Followed by the real surprise when suddenly there were all those clubs flying, passed by the three people :-) Thank you for your continuing effort to popularize explanations of how the internet *really* works. Rich ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Talk now up: How the internet really works
On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 8:20 PM Vint Cerf wrote: > > just watching the first few minutes I could tell this was going to be a > really fun talk - will watch the rest soon. I cavort on the shoulders of giants! I'm going to give myself an "A" for concept, but a "B" for performance. The latter half could have gone a bit faster, and one of the more difficult tricks, where one person already juggling tosses a ball (new flow) to another to incorporate it into their flows, was too hard to do, and didn't come off. Bunch of other flaws - notably I'd to say over and over again it would be better to think about an optimum for a low latency metaverse-capable internet would be for everyone to think more about "steady kilobits per millisecond". It's very hard to express how fair queuing works, also, correctly, in the context of this talk. There are quite a few other networking concepts that I hope could be explained in this way, the difficulties with doing full duplex wireless using a water ballon to splatter the reciever was originally part of the act but I cut it in deference to the hotel staff! > Dave, you should consider stand-up... :-))) I've been thinking about retiring, and opening up a comedy club in Starbase, Texas, with a marachi band on sundays. After working on theory, code, standards, and serious publications for so long, and being trapped behind zoom for the past 3 years, I needed an live outlet, like this, to stretch out a bit. I miss the high speed interactions you get out of "improv" for example, that's not a zoom-able thing. After the conference Bruce invited me to a musical jam which was *awesome* and also an example of what cannot presently be done well over the present day internet. One day, I hope. It was so great to get out and do this, and perhaps I'll do it again one day or film it more carefully and not live. If y'all would like a mostly serious explanation of many of the problems wifi has (With a fun explanation towards the end of what all OSes had been getting most wrong about wifi until then), please see the 8 minute segment here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1550s or, preferably, pass the whole thing to someone making wifi chips and drivers. The related paper is rather dry in comparison, unless you get excited about 10x reductions of network latency across the board in cdf plots. https://www.usenix.org/conference/atc17/technical-sessions/presentation/hoilan-jorgesen - a huge (and still flailing) goal for me has been to get the now standard linux APIs for that into more wifi chipsets than just Intel's, mediatek mt76, qualcomm ath9k and ath10k chips. PS The only way I can think of to express how wireless signals degrade over distance while using jugglers is via CGI, making the balls diffuse and shrinking... Other ideas for how to express the inverse square law simply, welcomed! PPS (I'm quite curious as to how good the vanguard talk looked over the much lower frame rate zoom participants, and how much freezing or distortion of the feed they had) > v > > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 9:25 AM James Hurley wrote: >> >> Great talk Dave & MIT jugglers >> >> Dave is there any chance you can share the slides you were presenting in the >> video? >> >> > On 8 Mar 2022, at 16:07, Dave Taht wrote: >> > >> > My talk last week at TTI Vanguard is now up on youtube. I used no >> > slides, and a bunch of new simple analogies (including the world's >> > most elaborate "rickroll"!) to explain the problems videoconferencing >> > and voice have with competing with web traffic, with bits about >> > cryptography, packet loss, bufferbloat, fair queueing and active queue >> > management across all our access technologies today, as well as some >> > notes as to the NTIA broadband programs and ongoing FCC measurements. >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWViGcBlnm0 >> > >> > My special thanks to Len and Nancy Kleinrock, and to Lisa Yao, CEO of >> > TTI Vanguard, for sponsoring my talk and travel. Plug: There were a >> > bunch of very interesting other talks at that conference (including >> > one amazing one on quantum computing that went over my head >> > completely) that I enjoyed greatly. A huge thx also to my volunteers, >> > Jamie, Vasu, and Joshua, who went the extra mile to help out. >> > >> > I am of course trying to reach new audiences outside our circle with >> > my talk, please reshare widely? >> > >> > -- >> > I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >> > >> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > ___ >> > Make-wifi-fast mailing list >> > make-wifi-f...@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast >> >> ___ >> Starlink mailing list >> starl...@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vi
