Re: [Bloat] On metrics

[Rich Brown via Bloat]

> On Mar 19, 2023, at 11:03 PM, bloat-requ...@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote:
> 
>> Consumers really need things like published performance specs so they can
>> assemble their needs like an a la carte menu.  What do you do, what’s
>> important to you, what details support that need, and they need that in a
>> simple way.   Like a little app that says “how many 1080p TVs or 4K TVs,
>> how many gaming consoles, do you take zoom calls or VoIP/phone calls.  Do
>> you send large emails, videos, or pictures.”
> 
> The problem is that these needs really are not that heavy. Among my ISP 
> connections, I have a 8/1 dsl connection, even when I fail over to that, I 
> can 
> run my 4k tv + a couple other HD TVs + email (although it's at the ragged 
> edge, 
> trying to play 4k at 2x speed can hiccup, and zoom calls can stutter when 
> large 
> emails/downloads flow)

I want to second David Lang's comment. I live in a small rural NH town that was 
stuck at DSL prior to a local company raising the money to install fiber to all 
premises. 

Before the fiber came in, I had 7mbps/768kbps service. If I wanted to bond two 
circuits, I could get 15/1mbps. But many neighbors had 3mbps/768kbps - or worse 
- so they were basically unserved. We frequently saw people parked outside our 
public library after hours to get internet. (And yes, a good router improved 
things. I told a lot of people about the IQrouter that turned the unusable 
service into merely slow.)

But there is a huge swath of rural US that is in the same situation, with zero 
or one provider of dreadful service.

What's the value of a "nutrition label"?

a) It's meaningless for those rural customers. They have no choice beyond "take 
it or leave it." 

b) For the lucky ones where alternative providers compete, the proposed label 
does provide a standardized format that lays out purported speeds and the the 
pricing tiers (including overage charges). I don't think I'd ever believe the 
latency numbers.

c) Coming back to metrics: we can't look to a federally-agreed-to Nutrition 
Label to give guidance for which provider offers the right choice for your mix 
of gadgets. The most important advice I can imagine is "get a router that 
manages your latency", and your problems will go away, or at least be *much* 
better.

Rich
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] On metrics

[Sebastian Moeller via Bloat]

So over here in Germany we already have something similar.

ISPs are required by law and regulation to supply potential customers with the 
following standardized information before closing a contract:

example "Product information sheet"
h++ps://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Transparenzmaßnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=475EBAEFFD5ADDD7D3E30FDBF9CA29C2?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

instructions how to create a "Product information sheet"
h++ps://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Transparenzmaßnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=475EBAEFFD5ADDD7D3E30FDBF9CA29C2?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

The national regulatory agency also established a (somewhat complicated and 
time-intensive) process to check whether ISPs actually deliver the 
contractually promised throughput (and they still ignore latency which clearly 
should be improved).

Customers who show that ISPs doe not deliver can opt either:
a) get an immediate right to cancel the contract
b) opt for getting the price reduced proportional to the amount of contractual 
fulfillment (for the duration of the existing contract, after that the ISP can 
opt not to offer only lower speedgrades)
c) sue the ISP in court (as before)


This will not help in conditions like Rich's, but it generally helps in getting 
the whole market get an understanding that contracts do matter. (ISPs are free 
to only promise those numbers they see fit, they are only held accountable to 
actually fulfill their commitments).

I would expect that for a plan-by-plan information something that gives 
reliable information about generally achievable capacity (and preferably 
latency under load) would be helpful. Especially when combined with an official 
web-site that step-by-step explains what kind of capacity and (worst case 
latency) different use-cases require.

That is have the label not try to explain everything but have it refer to a 
well-written web site that helps to put the numbers into perspective.

But I might be biased the the method I know and there might be better ways.

Regards
Sebastian

P.S.: I know some here operate ISPS and hence see this from a different angle 
than end-customers, but the measurement procedure is pretty fair for ISPs and 
customers (and arduous enough that folks are unlikely to run a measurement 
campaign just for fun or to pester an ISP).






> On Mar 20, 2023, at 12:30, Rich Brown via Bloat  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 19, 2023, at 11:03 PM, bloat-requ...@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote:
>> 
>>> Consumers really need things like published performance specs so they can
>>> assemble their needs like an a la carte menu.  What do you do, what’s
>>> important to you, what details support that need, and they need that in a
>>> simple way.   Like a little app that says “how many 1080p TVs or 4K TVs,
>>> how many gaming consoles, do you take zoom calls or VoIP/phone calls.  Do
>>> you send large emails, videos, or pictures.”
>> 
>> The problem is that these needs really are not that heavy. Among my ISP 
>> connections, I have a 8/1 dsl connection, even when I fail over to that, I 
>> can 
>> run my 4k tv + a couple other HD TVs + email (although it's at the ragged 
>> edge, 
>> trying to play 4k at 2x speed can hiccup, and zoom calls can stutter when 
>> large 
>> emails/downloads flow)
> 
> I want to second David Lang's comment. I live in a small rural NH town that 
> was stuck at DSL prior to a local company raising the money to install fiber 
> to all premises. 
> 
> Before the fiber came in, I had 7mbps/768kbps service. If I wanted to bond 
> two circuits, I could get 15/1mbps. But many neighbors had 3mbps/768kbps - or 
> worse - so they were basically unserved. We frequently saw people parked 
> outside our public library after hours to get internet. (And yes, a good 
> router improved things. I told a lot of people about the IQrouter that turned 
> the unusable service into merely slow.)
> 
> But there is a huge swath of rural US that is in the same situation, with 
> zero or one provider of dreadful service.
> 
> What's the value of a "nutrition label"?
> 
> a) It's meaningless for those rural customers. They have no choice beyond 
> "take it or leave it." 
> 
> b) For the lucky ones where alternative providers compete, the proposed label 
> does provide a standardized format that lays out purported speeds and the the 
> pricing tiers (including overage charges). I don't think I'd ever believe the 
> latency numbers.
> 
> c) Coming back to metrics: we can't look to a federally-agreed-to Nutrition 
> Label to give guidance for which provider offers the right choice for your 
> mix of gadgets. The most important advice I can imagine is "get a router that 
> manages your latency", and your problems will go 

[Bloat] Any good 802.11ax chipsets?

[Nils Andreas Svee via Bloat]

Hey folks

Hoped I could pick your brains a bit on this subject, as I'll be moving soon 
and am in the market for some new network HW.

Personally I'm not a heavy user of wireless devices for the most part, but I do 
own an Oculus Quest 2 that I sometimes use Air Link with (which streams VR 
games from your computer over the network), which comes with pretty hefty 
bandwidth requirements.

So typically 802.11ax routers are highly recommended, but as we know all too 
well, the extra bandwidth won't do much good if the queues are badly managed.

I seem to recall that the ath11k driver does not have fq_codel in it, but those 
chipsets does have some queue management on the firmware side?

On the cheaper end I've looked at Zyxel's NWA50AX APs [1], which sports a 
Mediatek MT7915 chip.
Doesn't look to the best range-wise, but at that price point I don't mind 
getting multiple of them to get good coverage and they look to be supported in 
OpenWrt master, so no need to worry about the likely less-than-stellar stock FW.

[1]: 
https://www.zyxel.com/no/no/products/wireless/802-11ax-wifi-6-dual-radio-poe-access-point-nwa50ax/specifications

Best Regards,
Nils
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[dan via Bloat]

I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
streams plus browsing and so forth, yet no one talks about latency and
packet loss and other useful metrics at all and consumers are not able to
and never will be able to understand more that a couple of numbers.  This
is an industry problem and unless we have some sort of working group that
is pushing this like the 'got milk?' advertisements I'm not sure how we
will ever get there.  The big vendors that have pushed docsis to extremes
have no interest in these other details, they win on the big 'speed' number
and will advertising all sorts of performance around that number.

We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.

On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 2:46 PM Frantisek Borsik 
wrote:

>
> Late to the party, also not an engineer...but if there's something I have
> learned during my time with RF elements:
>
> --- 99% of the vendors out there (and most of the ISPs, I dare to say, as
> well) don't know/care/respect thing as "simple", as physics.
>
> --- 2.4GHz was lost because of this, and 5GHz was saved like "5 minutes to
> midnight" for ISPs, by RF elements Horns (and UltraHorns, UltraDish,
> Asymmetrical Horns later on), basically, that have inspired ("Imitation is
> the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness." Oscar
> Wilde) some other vendors of the antennas to bring their own version of
> Horns etc.
>
> --- sure, lot of improvements in order to fight noise, modulate,
> virtualise (like Tarana Wireless) were done on the AP (radio) side, but
> still - physics is physics and it was overlooked and neglected for such a
> LONG time.
>
> --- ISPs were told by the vendors to basically BLAST through the noise and
> many more BS like this. So they did as they were told, they were blasting
> and blasting. Those that were getting smarter, switched to RF elements
> Horns, stopped blasting, started to being reasonable with topology ("if
> Your customers are 5 miles away from the AP, You will not blast like crazy
> for 10 miles, because You will pick up all the noise") and they even
> started to cooperate - frequency coordination, colocation - with other ISPs
> on the same towers etc (the same co-ordination needs to be done between the
> ISP behind the CPEs now - on the Wi-Fi routers of their customers.)
>
> The similar development I was able to see when I got into Wi-Fi (while at
> TurrisTech  - secure,
> powerful open source Wi-Fi routers). The same story, basically, for vendors
> as well as ISPs. No actual respect for the underlying physics, attempts to
> blast-over the noise, chasing clouds ("muah WiFi 6, 6Eoh no, here comes
> Wi-Fi 7 and this will change EVERYTHING ---> see, it was a lot of "fun" to
> see this happening with 5G, and the amount of over-promise and
> under-delivery BS was and even still is, staggering.)
> The whole Wi-Fi industry is chasing (almost) empty numbers (bandwidth)
> instead of focusing on bufferbloat (latency, jitter...).
> Thanks to Domos for putting together the Understanding Latency webinar
> series. I know that most of You are aware of latency as the most important
> metric we should focus on nowadays in order to improve the overall Internet
> experience, but still...
> About 6 hours watch of watching. And rewatching:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdTPz5srJ8M
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAVwmUG21OY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg
>
> Also, there is one more thing to add re Wi-Fi. If You can cable, You
> should always cable. Mesh as we know it, would be a way better Wi-Fi
> enhancement, if the mesh units would be wired as much as possible. We will
> reduce the noice, grow smart and save spectrum.
>
> Thanks for the great discussion.
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.bor...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 11:27 AM Michael Richardson via Rpm <
> r...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> {lots of lists on the CC}
>>
>> The problem I have with lorawan is that it's too small for anything but
>> the
>> smallest sensors.  When it breaks (due to infant death or just vanadalism)
>> who is going to notice enough to fix it?  My belief is that people won't
>> break things that they like/depend upon.  Or at least, that there will be
>> social pressure not to.
>>
>> Better to have a protected 1Mb/s sensor lan within a 144Mb/s wifi than a
>> adjacent loraw

[Bloat] On FiWi power envelope

[rjmcmahon via Bloat]

If I'm reading things correctly, the per fire alarm power rating is 120V 
at 80 mA or 9.6 W. The per power FiWi transceiver estimate is 2 Watts 
per spatial stream at 160MhZ and 1 Watt for the fiber. Looks like a 
retrofit of a fire alarm system would have sufficient power for FiWi 
radio heads. Then it's punching a few holes, run fiber, splice, patch & 
paint which is very straightforward work for the trades. Rich people as 
early adopters could show off their infinitely capable in-home network. 
Installers could do a two-for deal, buy one and I'll install another in 
a less fortunate community. 
https://www.thespruce.com/install-hardwired-smoke-detectors-1152329


Sharktank passed on the Ring deal - imagine having a real, life-support 
capable, & future-proof network vs just a silly doorbell w/camera.


Bob
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

[Bloat] PAM 2023 starts tomorrow at 14:00 CET - it is virtual and free

[Anna Brunström via Bloat]

Hi All,

Don’t miss that PAM 2023 is running Tuesday through Thursday this week as a 
virtual conference, starting at 14:00 CET each day.

The program features a range of measurement topics, including applications, 
performance, network infrastructure and topology, measurement tools, and 
security and privacy. We also have two exciting keynote presentations from Roya 
Ensafi (University of Michigan) and Andra Lutu (Telefonica Research).

Participation is free, but you need to register here: 
https://pam2023.networks.imdea.org/registration/

The full program and schedule is available here: 
https://pam2023.networks.imdea.org/program/

Hope to see you online!
-Anna

-
Professor Anna Brunstrom
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
Karlstad University
651 88 Karlstad, Sweden
Phone:   +46 54 7001795
E-mail:  anna.brunst...@kau.se
-

När du skickar e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina 
personuppgifter.
When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process your personal 
data.
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On FiWi power envelope

[Bruce Perens via Bloat]

It's time to break this discussion off into its own list, isn't it?

On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 3:03 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
starl...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> If I'm reading things correctly, the per fire alarm power rating is 120V
> at 80 mA or 9.6 W. The per power FiWi transceiver estimate is 2 Watts
> per spatial stream at 160MhZ and 1 Watt for the fiber. Looks like a
> retrofit of a fire alarm system would have sufficient power for FiWi
> radio heads. Then it's punching a few holes, run fiber, splice, patch &
> paint which is very straightforward work for the trades. Rich people as
> early adopters could show off their infinitely capable in-home network.
> Installers could do a two-for deal, buy one and I'll install another in
> a less fortunate community.
> https://www.thespruce.com/install-hardwired-smoke-detectors-1152329
>
> Sharktank passed on the Ring deal - imagine having a real, life-support
> capable, & future-proof network vs just a silly doorbell w/camera.
>
> Bob
> ___
> Starlink mailing list
> starl...@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>


-- 
Bruce Perens K6BP
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Frantisek Borsik via Bloat]

Late to the party, also not an engineer...but if there's something I have
learned during my time with RF elements:

--- 99% of the vendors out there (and most of the ISPs, I dare to say, as
well) don't know/care/respect thing as "simple", as physics.

--- 2.4GHz was lost because of this, and 5GHz was saved like "5 minutes to
midnight" for ISPs, by RF elements Horns (and UltraHorns, UltraDish,
Asymmetrical Horns later on), basically, that have inspired ("Imitation is
the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness." Oscar
Wilde) some other vendors of the antennas to bring their own version of
Horns etc.

--- sure, lot of improvements in order to fight noise, modulate, virtualise
(like Tarana Wireless) were done on the AP (radio) side, but still -
physics is physics and it was overlooked and neglected for such a LONG time.

--- ISPs were told by the vendors to basically BLAST through the noise and
many more BS like this. So they did as they were told, they were blasting
and blasting. Those that were getting smarter, switched to RF elements
Horns, stopped blasting, started to being reasonable with topology ("if
Your customers are 5 miles away from the AP, You will not blast like crazy
for 10 miles, because You will pick up all the noise") and they even
started to cooperate - frequency coordination, colocation - with other ISPs
on the same towers etc (the same co-ordination needs to be done between the
ISP behind the CPEs now - on the Wi-Fi routers of their customers.)

The similar development I was able to see when I got into Wi-Fi (while at
TurrisTech  - secure,
powerful open source Wi-Fi routers). The same story, basically, for vendors
as well as ISPs. No actual respect for the underlying physics, attempts to
blast-over the noise, chasing clouds ("muah WiFi 6, 6Eoh no, here comes
Wi-Fi 7 and this will change EVERYTHING ---> see, it was a lot of "fun" to
see this happening with 5G, and the amount of over-promise and
under-delivery BS was and even still is, staggering.)
The whole Wi-Fi industry is chasing (almost) empty numbers (bandwidth)
instead of focusing on bufferbloat (latency, jitter...).
Thanks to Domos for putting together the Understanding Latency webinar
series. I know that most of You are aware of latency as the most important
metric we should focus on nowadays in order to improve the overall Internet
experience, but still...
About 6 hours watch of watching. And rewatching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdTPz5srJ8M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAVwmUG21OY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg

Also, there is one more thing to add re Wi-Fi. If You can cable, You should
always cable. Mesh as we know it, would be a way better Wi-Fi enhancement,
if the mesh units would be wired as much as possible. We will reduce the
noice, grow smart and save spectrum.

Thanks for the great discussion.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.bor...@gmail.com


On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 11:27 AM Michael Richardson via Rpm <
r...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> {lots of lists on the CC}
>
> The problem I have with lorawan is that it's too small for anything but the
> smallest sensors.  When it breaks (due to infant death or just vanadalism)
> who is going to notice enough to fix it?  My belief is that people won't
> break things that they like/depend upon.  Or at least, that there will be
> social pressure not to.
>
> Better to have a protected 1Mb/s sensor lan within a 144Mb/s wifi than a
> adjacent lorawan.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-  *I*LIKE*TRAINS*
>
>
>
> ___
> Rpm mailing list
> r...@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Brandon Butterworth via Bloat]

On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote:
> I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
> streams plus browsing and so forth

It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before
the next upgrade round.

This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK.

It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big
number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets
with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal
point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making
equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold.

> yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics

Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the
reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to
replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul
becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market
pressure with speedtests show there is a problem.

> We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.

Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily obvious
in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs
are performing well.

We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing
worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so
the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable
with that.

brandon
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Frantisek Borsik via Bloat]

Thanks, Dan. So we got here, but how to get out of this craziness.
The question is what (if anything)  we can actually learn from the very
beginning of the Internet. If I remember correctly, there was as part of
this discussion here (or in the other thread) on IP vs LoRaWAN.
Can we use something from the good ole IP frame work that would help us to
do this?
Also, is it even possible at all?

Btw, here is a good example of explaining, learning of the performance
(latency, jitter, bufferbloat) side of the Internet, shared with the
customers by Robert, the guy behind the beginning of LibreQoS:
https://jackrabbitwireless.com/performance/
Great inspiration.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.bor...@gmail.com


On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 10:28 PM dan  wrote:

> I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
> streams plus browsing and so forth, yet no one talks about latency and
> packet loss and other useful metrics at all and consumers are not able to
> and never will be able to understand more that a couple of numbers.  This
> is an industry problem and unless we have some sort of working group that
> is pushing this like the 'got milk?' advertisements I'm not sure how we
> will ever get there.  The big vendors that have pushed docsis to extremes
> have no interest in these other details, they win on the big 'speed' number
> and will advertising all sorts of performance around that number.
>
> We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 2:46 PM Frantisek Borsik <
> frantisek.bor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Late to the party, also not an engineer...but if there's something I have
>> learned during my time with RF elements:
>>
>> --- 99% of the vendors out there (and most of the ISPs, I dare to say, as
>> well) don't know/care/respect thing as "simple", as physics.
>>
>> --- 2.4GHz was lost because of this, and 5GHz was saved like "5 minutes
>> to midnight" for ISPs, by RF elements Horns (and UltraHorns, UltraDish,
>> Asymmetrical Horns later on), basically, that have inspired ("Imitation is
>> the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness." Oscar
>> Wilde) some other vendors of the antennas to bring their own version of
>> Horns etc.
>>
>> --- sure, lot of improvements in order to fight noise, modulate,
>> virtualise (like Tarana Wireless) were done on the AP (radio) side, but
>> still - physics is physics and it was overlooked and neglected for such a
>> LONG time.
>>
>> --- ISPs were told by the vendors to basically BLAST through the noise
>> and many more BS like this. So they did as they were told, they were
>> blasting and blasting. Those that were getting smarter, switched to RF
>> elements Horns, stopped blasting, started to being reasonable with topology
>> ("if Your customers are 5 miles away from the AP, You will not blast like
>> crazy for 10 miles, because You will pick up all the noise") and they even
>> started to cooperate - frequency coordination, colocation - with other ISPs
>> on the same towers etc (the same co-ordination needs to be done between the
>> ISP behind the CPEs now - on the Wi-Fi routers of their customers.)
>>
>> The similar development I was able to see when I got into Wi-Fi (while at
>> TurrisTech  - secure,
>> powerful open source Wi-Fi routers). The same story, basically, for vendors
>> as well as ISPs. No actual respect for the underlying physics, attempts to
>> blast-over the noise, chasing clouds ("muah WiFi 6, 6Eoh no, here comes
>> Wi-Fi 7 and this will change EVERYTHING ---> see, it was a lot of "fun" to
>> see this happening with 5G, and the amount of over-promise and
>> under-delivery BS was and even still is, staggering.)
>> The whole Wi-Fi industry is chasing (almost) empty numbers (bandwidth)
>> instead of focusing on bufferbloat (latency, jitter...).
>> Thanks to Domos for putting together the Understanding Latency webinar
>> series. I know that most of You are aware of latency as the most important
>> metric we should focus on nowadays in order to improve the overall Internet
>> experience, but still...
>> About 6 hours watch of watching. And rewatching:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdTPz5srJ8M
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAVwmUG21OY
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg
>>
>> Also, there is one more thing to add re Wi-Fi. If You can cable, You
>> should alway

Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Frantisek Borsik via Bloat]

Even at Friday evening Netflix time, there’s hardly more than 25/5 Mbps
consumed.
Also, the real improvements that will be really felt by the people are on
the bufferbloat front (enterprise as well as residential)

If there’s just single one talk that everyone should watch from that
Understanding Latency webinar series I have shared, it’s this one, with
Gino Dion (Nokia Bell Labs), Magnus Olden (Domos - Latency Management) and
Angus Laurie-Pile (GameBench):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg&t=1358s
It’s all about the 1-25Gbps misconception, what we did to put it out there
as techies, and what can be done to show the customers to change that…40
minutes, but it’s WORTHWHILE.
Really shows that it goes beyond gamers - they were just a canary in the
coal mine pre-covid.

Now, I hope to really piss You off with the following statement  :-P but:

even sub 5/1 Mbps “broadband” in Africa with bufferbloat fixed on as many
hops along the internet journey from a data center to the customers mobile
device (or with just LibreQoS middle box in the ISP’s network) is feeling
way better than 25Gbps XG-PON. The only time the XG-PON guy could really
feel like a king of the world would be during his speedtest.



All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.bor...@gmail.com





On 21 March 2023 at 1:10:21 AM, Brandon Butterworth (bran...@rd.bbc.co.uk)
wrote:

> On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote:
>
> I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput numbers
> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
> streams plus browsing and so forth
>
>
> It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before
> the next upgrade round.
>
> This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK.
>
> It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big
> number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets
> with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal
> point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making
> equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold.
>
> yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics
>
>
> Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the
> reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to
> replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul
> becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market
> pressure with speedtests show there is a problem.
>
> We need a marketing/lobby group. Not wispa or other individual industry
> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc. i don't know
> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.
>
>
> Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily
> obvious
> in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs
> are performing well.
>
> We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing
> worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so
> the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable
> with that.
>
> brandon
>
___
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat