Re: [Bloat] fcc input
I encourage you to collectively think about a different strategy for framing the problem.Rather than talk about BB, and then forever looping back and try to explain why it is important to non-network folks, develop a tool (or a skin for an existing tool) that estimates the suitability of a link to carry video conferencing and gamer traffic, using the language from those communities (e.g. "lag"). No explanation is needed to tell a gamer why lag is bad. No explanation is needed to tell a musician why lag is bad for a distributed ensemble. Very little explanation is needed to tell a VC user why lag is bad, since these days everybody has experienced it. Keep the up front the language at the application layer, but down inside reveal that the largest culprit is often excess network queueing delay under load, AKA buffer bloat. Although a well framed tool could have high impact, you would get even more bang for your buck to have a semi-standard jitter metric that could be grafted into any real time application. The goal would be to connect the observed (and measured) application lag to the underlying network jitter, queueing delay and bufferbloat. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay We must not tolerate intolerance; however our response must be carefully measured: too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control; too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 1:54 AM Jan Ceuleers wrote: > On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote: > > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via > > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator > > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly > > animals as packets". > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s > > > > But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither. > > Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos, > > but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I > > ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps > > we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated. > > I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise > sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to > draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com > under a Creative Commons license. > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote: > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly > animals as packets". > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s > > But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither. > Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos, > but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I > ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps > we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated. I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com under a Creative Commons license. ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:23 PM Kenneth Porter wrote: > > --On Friday, March 26, 2021 1:09 PM -0700 Dave Taht > wrote: > > > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via > > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator > > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly > > animals as packets". > > I keep encouraging fellow space fans to go play with Kerbal Space Program. My spacex song references that. I've lost a LOT of time to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjur0RG-v-I > Perhaps there's a video game or engine out there that would be useful for > rendering our concepts. Just completely out of my league. > I'm not a particularly visual person so nothing comes to mind. But I > suggest that a first step would be a story board, just some scribbled > sketches to get started. With that we might get some input from hobbyist > animators out there. I would like to know what it would take to engage a professional. > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman d...@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
--On Friday, March 26, 2021 1:09 PM -0700 Dave Taht wrote: I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly animals as packets". I keep encouraging fellow space fans to go play with Kerbal Space Program. Perhaps there's a video game or engine out there that would be useful for rendering our concepts. I'm not a particularly visual person so nothing comes to mind. But I suggest that a first step would be a story board, just some scribbled sketches to get started. With that we might get some input from hobbyist animators out there. ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly animals as packets". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither. Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos, but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated. On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:05 PM Kenneth Porter wrote: > > --On Friday, March 26, 2021 10:58 AM -0700 Aaron Wood > wrote: > > > I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the > > problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't > > bandwidth, but jitter and bloat... > > Speed is easy to understand. I see a similar issue with space travel fans, > who have trouble grasping how acceleration, not velocity, is the important > factor in that domain. And when velocity is a factor, it's the vector, not > the scalar, that counts. If only people got decent math educations > > Jitter and bloat aren't intuitive and need a lot more thinking and patience > to understand. Perhaps we need a good animated cartoon to explain it. > > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman d...@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
--On Friday, March 26, 2021 10:58 AM -0700 Aaron Wood wrote: I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't bandwidth, but jitter and bloat... Speed is easy to understand. I see a similar issue with space travel fans, who have trouble grasping how acceleration, not velocity, is the important factor in that domain. And when velocity is a factor, it's the vector, not the scalar, that counts. If only people got decent math educations Jitter and bloat aren't intuitive and need a lot more thinking and patience to understand. Perhaps we need a good animated cartoon to explain it. ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't bandwidth, but jitter and bloat... On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:52 PM Jonathan Foulkes wrote: > Agreed, we need to be more vocal. > > I did look up my home address, and wonder of wonders it was mostly correct. > > Windstream claims they provide fiber (1000/1000) in my census track, but > the only fiber they have goes to their HFC nodes that then feeds coax to > the home. Best one can get is 1000/35. Not that I’m complaining, as I was > stuck on 12 / 0.76 DSL for >decade. > > So ISPs are stretching the truth with some of the self-reported info. > > Cheers, > > Jonathan > > > On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:11 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet > > > > Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign > > about bufferbloat > > to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could > > definitely use some new rhetoric > > > > -- > > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > > > d...@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > > ___ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] fcc input
Agreed, we need to be more vocal. I did look up my home address, and wonder of wonders it was mostly correct. Windstream claims they provide fiber (1000/1000) in my census track, but the only fiber they have goes to their HFC nodes that then feeds coax to the home. Best one can get is 1000/35. Not that I’m complaining, as I was stuck on 12 / 0.76 DSL for >decade. So ISPs are stretching the truth with some of the self-reported info. Cheers, Jonathan > On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:11 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > > https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet > > Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign > about bufferbloat > to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could > definitely use some new rhetoric > > -- > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > d...@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > ___ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
[Bloat] fcc input
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign about bufferbloat to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could definitely use some new rhetoric -- "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman d...@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
