Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Paolo, Paolo Vecchi píše v Pá 11. 02. 2022 v 16:11 +0100: > As I started the proposal I'm very happy to work with Sophie and > Hossein > to complement the proposal with the useful feedback we received in > this > thread. Perfect, I am looking forward to an ODT that we can then collectively redline as the Board, to form a proposal based on consensus! As to working with Sophie & Hossein - are you about to politely ask them to work on that as volunteers (as I've asked Michael W. - Michael, once again thank you for your input & answers!), or are you about to ask your fellow Board members & Florian to dedicate some of their work time (ie. donation money) to work on the proposal? Thank you! All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Kendy, I'm not Paolo, but maybe it would be great, if you could stop to pick on someone. It seemed your only intention on this topic is to control (with your non-TDF-hat on) everything. That is not a cooperative behavior. Regards, Andreas Am 14.02.22 um 14:40 schrieb Jan Holesovsky: Hi Paolo, Paolo Vecchi píše v Pá 11. 02. 2022 v 16:11 +0100: As I started the proposal I'm very happy to work with Sophie and Hossein to complement the proposal with the useful feedback we received in this thread. Perfect, I am looking forward to an ODT that we can then collectively redline as the Board, to form a proposal based on consensus! As to working with Sophie & Hossein - are you about to politely ask them to work on that as volunteers (as I've asked Michael W. - Michael, once again thank you for your input & answers!), or are you about to ask your fellow Board members & Florian to dedicate some of their work time (ie. donation money) to work on the proposal? Thank you! All the best, Kendy -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Ilmari, Thank you for your answers, lots of great stuff! Just two notes: Ilmari Lauhakangas píše v So 12. 02. 2022 v 23:30 +0200: > > * How to make sure they don't compete with other open source > > projects, > >or the ecosystem companies? > > Trust the more experienced staff members to know this distinction > when > it comes to areas of focus. I fear it shouldn't be about trust only :-) - so I'm looking forward to the Paolo's promised document, I hope it will cover it some way too. > > * How to avoid growing a group-think in the internal developers > >group that there is no need for the ecosystem companies, or even > >for the community as a whole? [As explained elsewhere; as much > > as > >it sounds strange - TDF is a subset of the community, not the > > other > >way around.] > > By regular brainwashing sessions conducted by me (I am well-known for > my > free advertising of the ecosystem companies before and after my > hiring > at TDF). Love this one! :-D - thank you! All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Andreas, Andreas Mantke píše v Po 14. 02. 2022 v 15:29 +0100: > but maybe it would be great, if you could stop to pick on someone. > > It seemed your only intention on this topic is to control (with your > non-TDF-hat on) everything. > > That is not a cooperative behavior. I've told it in the public part of the Board meeting on Friday, and will repeat it again: I am very sad that this whole discussion started framed as (let me paraphrase) "TDF will hire 2 developers, it is all done deal, there are no problems" [in concrete words "Funds are available for at least 2 developers allowing us to start employing them straight away; Next steps: create and publish the job offers for developers and on-board them ASAP"]. This is extremely unhelpful, as it totally dismisses views of others. There was no full agreement of this in the Board, no plan, no prioritization against other budget items and no consideration if this is the best way how to improve the situation - so please don't be surprised it lead to a challenging discussion. I am extremely grateful to Sophie, Michael W., Ilmari, Olivier H., and others (I'm sure I forgot some, sorry about that) for their patience & helpful input, and I do hope we will move to a more constructive, concrete debate. In my world [regardless of the hat], a constructive debate is much easier over a document collecting: * the problem statement & the need * the pros & cons of various solutions * the proposal & conclusion That with change tracking (redlining) turned on & possibility to comment - so that it is possible to finalize it to a form that is acceptable for all involved: in other words, to form a consensus. So - I am really looking forward to such a document! Actually I'd be happy to start it myself, if that helped the situation; and would ask people to volunteer to work with me on that - but not sure it is a good idea just now. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Kendy, all, Am 14.02.22 um 16:42 schrieb Jan Holesovsky: Hi Andreas, Andreas Mantke píše v Po 14. 02. 2022 v 15:29 +0100: but maybe it would be great, if you could stop to pick on someone. It seemed your only intention on this topic is to control (with your non-TDF-hat on) everything. That is not a cooperative behavior. I've told it in the public part of the Board meeting on Friday, and will repeat it again: I am very sad that this whole discussion started framed as (let me paraphrase) "TDF will hire 2 developers, it is all done deal, there are no problems" [in concrete words "Funds are available for at least 2 developers allowing us to start employing them straight away; Next steps: create and publish the job offers for developers and on-board them ASAP"]. but that gave TDF the option to work on tasks which are important for the LibO user and for the market strength of the LibreOffice community edition. This is extremely unhelpful, as it totally dismisses views of others. There was no full agreement of this in the Board, no plan, no prioritization against other budget items and no consideration if this is the best way how to improve the situation - so please don't be surprised it lead to a challenging discussion. I'm sorry but it seemed the challenging discussion is done only by one person. And don't be surprised that there is not always full consensus in a decision process. At some point you have to decide with the majority of votes to avoid endless discussions. I am extremely grateful to Sophie, Michael W., Ilmari, Olivier H., and others (I'm sure I forgot some, sorry about that) for their patience & helpful input, and I do hope we will move to a more constructive, concrete debate. Maybe you made excessive demands on their patience and self-perception. In my world [regardless of the hat], a constructive debate is much easier over a document collecting: I think it is (nearly?) impossible to take part in a debate, if you have a CoI (because you sit on two sites of a table). Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Kendy, On 14/02/2022 14:40, Jan Holesovsky wrote: Hi Paolo, Paolo Vecchi píše v Pá 11. 02. 2022 v 16:11 +0100: As I started the proposal I'm very happy to work with Sophie and Hossein to complement the proposal with the useful feedback we received in this thread. Perfect, I am looking forward to an ODT that we can then collectively redline as the Board, to form a proposal based on consensus! Thanks, I'm looking forward to having the board agreeing that it's the best strategic move for TDF to start employing internal developers. I'm sure that if all board members think about the best for TDF we will reach an unanimous consensus on it very quickly. As to working with Sophie & Hossein - are you about to politely ask them to work on that as volunteers (as I've asked Michael W. - Michael, once again thank you for your input & answers!), As to working with Sophie and Hossein I have publicly asked members of TDF's team to work together on an opportunity that affects them, as we are talking about new colleagues, and on which they can share their thoughts and experience as they are working in many areas and are able to identify the best ways to get the new developers to be most effective within the team and for the good of our wider community. True that I could have added the word "please", I was probably too excited to start working with members of the team and totally forgot, but I'm sure both Sophie and Hossein didn't get offended by it. or are you about to ask your fellow Board members & Florian to dedicate some of their work time (ie. donation money) to work on the proposal? Our team must invest its time for the best of TDF, LibreOffice and the wider community and that's what our donors want. Keep also in mind most volunteers are also donors as time for most of us has a value. I'm generally selling my time at X amount per hour/day so I'm donating that value to TDF with the only scope of doing my best for TDF, LibreOffice and the community as I passionately believe on the project and the good that it's doing all over the world without expecting any economical return. Naturally there is a limit on the amount of time I can donate as while it makes me happy to be doing my best for TDF and the community, like anyone else, I have to dedicate my time also in doing things that pay the bills. Others may be able to invest as much time as it is necessary as anyway some outcomes may be also quite beneficial for their own companies, that may create a bit of an imbalance in the decision making process. Thank you! Thank you for understanding how much many are donating in time and money to TDF and that we need to move forward to show them their donations really matter to us. All the best, Kendy Ciao Paolo -- Paolo Vecchi - Deputy Member of the Board of Directors The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
Hi Kendy, On 14/02/2022 16:42, Jan Holesovsky wrote: Hi Andreas, Andreas Mantke píše v Po 14. 02. 2022 v 15:29 +0100: but maybe it would be great, if you could stop to pick on someone. It seemed your only intention on this topic is to control (with your non-TDF-hat on) everything. That is not a cooperative behavior. I've told it in the public part of the Board meeting on Friday, and will repeat it again: I am very sad that this whole discussion started framed as (let me paraphrase) "TDF will hire 2 developers, it is all done deal, there are no problems" [in concrete words "Funds are available for at least 2 developers allowing us to start employing them straight away; Next steps: create and publish the job offers for developers and on-board them ASAP"]. The proposal is a proposal not a contract. This is extremely unhelpful, as it totally dismisses views of others. There was no full agreement of this in the Board, no plan, no prioritization against other budget items and no consideration if this is the best way how to improve the situation - so please don't be surprised it lead to a challenging discussion. I do understand your point of view as I found it "very regrettable" that my views and proposals that were clearly stated in my candidacy statement got dismissed by others. I did have a conversation with the board trying to explain that this is a strategic decision that shouldn't be seen as a ranked project but my point of view was totally ignored by those that didn't care much about respecting others' views. Then others tried to dismiss my proposal trying to frame it as us vs others political battle: ' + very regrettable (Simon) + to frame this as partisan - one side vs. another + particularly when one side is "the industry"' That last line is also very regrettable as "the industry" (2 suppliers very well represented in the board) seem to be more equal than others and if we don't listen to "the industry" very bad things will happen. I am extremely grateful to Sophie, Michael W., Ilmari, Olivier H., and others (I'm sure I forgot some, sorry about that) for their patience & helpful input, and I do hope we will move to a more constructive, concrete debate. It has been a very constructive debate which seems to show that most have understood that my proposal has many ramifications that will help TDF in moving forward in a positive way. The good thing is that even the members of the ecosystem seem to have seen the proposal as beneficial for all the parties involved. We should have more of these debates in public so that the team and the community can tell us if we are going in the right direction. In my world [regardless of the hat], a constructive debate is much easier over a document collecting: * the problem statement & the need * the pros & cons of various solutions * the proposal & conclusion Something like this?: * As shown by Italo's slides at FOSDEM again and by others, TDF is not contributing as much as it could * Up to now no strategic decisions have been taken to make TDF a more regular and active code contributor * Members of the ecosystem and others also suggested that we should spend more money in development * Bugs, a11y issues and features can be harder to taken care of by volunteers and are not always addressed by the ecosystem * We need to build up internal skills and development capabilities to speed up innovation * Lack of suppliers diversification, mostly 2 at present, is a suboptimal situation for TDF, LibreOffice and its community * Internal developers can grow to cover areas like mentoring and QA while also helping with new contributors support * TDF needs to expand its internal capacity to deal with publishing in app stores directly and manage variable levels of complexity due to ever changing rules * Some proposed projects could be developed internally instead of outsourcing them, which helps to grow in-house skills and capacity to address our donors needs * Potential App Stores revenues may allow for more developers and to invest in developing other projects * Our development mentor together with the team should propose to the BoD projects for internal development * While internal projects may cover different areas tenders and ESC proposals will be also evaluated to avoid effort duplication * This is not "just" a new project, it's an essential and strategical move for TDF to grow further in its second decade which widens the horizon for new visions and opportunities to do more and even better things for LibreOffice and our community * Funds are available for at least 2 developers allowing us to start employing them straight away * Next steps: create and publish the job offers for developers and on-board them ASAP This has allowed to get a feel for the proposal, which seems
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 18:12 +0100, Paolo Vecchi wrote: > Hi Kendy, > > On 14/02/2022 16:42, Jan Holesovsky wrote: > > > > > > In my world [regardless of the hat], a constructive debate is much > > easier over a document collecting: > > > > * the problem statement & the need > > * the pros & cons of various solutions > > * the proposal & conclusion > > Something like this?: > > * As shown by Italo's slides at FOSDEM again and by others, TDF > is not contributing as much as it could > * Up to now no strategic decisions have been taken to make TDF a > more regular and active code contributor > * Members of the ecosystem and others also suggested that we > should spend more money in development > * Bugs, a11y issues and features can be harder to taken care of > by volunteers and are not always addressed by the ecosystem > * We need to build up internal skills and development > capabilities to speed up innovation > * Lack of suppliers diversification, mostly 2 at present, is a > suboptimal situation for TDF, LibreOffice and its community > * Internal developers can grow to cover areas like mentoring and > QA while also helping with new contributors support > * TDF needs to expand its internal capacity to deal with > publishing in app stores directly and manage variable levels of > complexity due to ever changing rules > * Some proposed projects could be developed internally instead > of outsourcing them, which helps to grow in-house skills and capacity > to address our donors needs > * Potential App Stores revenues may allow for more developers > and to invest in developing other projects > * Our development mentor together with the team should propose > to the BoD projects for internal development > * While internal projects may cover different areas tenders and > ESC proposals will be also evaluated to avoid effort duplication > * This is not "just" a new project, it's an essential and > strategical move for TDF to grow further in its second decade which > widens the horizon for new visions and opportunities to do more and > even better things for LibreOffice and our community > * Funds are available for at least 2 developers allowing us to > start employing them straight away > * Next steps: create and publish the job offers for developers > and on-board them ASAP > > This has allowed to get a feel for the proposal, which seems very > positive, and now we'll be working on the details but at least it > showed that the community thinks we are moving in the right > direction. > > Then should the new developers invest 30% of their time in QA, 50% > in bug fixing and 20% in reviewing tenders and deliverables? > That's something we should see with the team as they have a very > good feel of what is going on. I think at least some of the push back is less against the concept that TDF should hire developers and more that it's a clearer path to start with some specific problems and then what options could solve them and hiring can be an option on that decision tree. It's a rare dev that has skills in multiple appstores, mentoring, qa, a11y, CTL, CJK and bugfixing in the various quite diverse components. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
