Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi Michael, = Foreword: I here speak in my capacity as a Member of the Board of Trustees. = Am 02.12.22 um 12:10 schrieb Michael Stahl: hi Stephan, On 02.12.22 11:12, Stephan Ficht wrote: Dear board, hi all, = Foreword: I here speak in my capacity as a Member of the Board of Trustees. = This part of the vote TDF will seek to hire a developer(s); - who will report [...], and consult weekly with the ESC, which will oversee the technical direction of the work; is in my opinion not acceptable. This results in TDF (the employer) paying for the staff but others will have the saying about their tasks. how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with the ESC? Many thanks for joining the discussion. Much appeciated. In my opinion the semantics of "consult" and "oversee" makes how this is different. In the meantime, Sophie has thankfully already made some further explaining statements. And btw... I want to express my profound thanks to all developers contributing. Since I am personally interested in code stuff (my last books I read were about git and python) I'm a bit envious of developers' skills that I don't have at all (and will certainly never get). But I admire them all the more with all my heart. Best Stephan -- Stephan Ficht, Member of the Board of Trustees Affiliation: The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Dear all, Michael Stahl wrote: > On 02.12.22 19:21, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: > > If the ESC is an official TDF committee, where are its statutes, its > > functioning rules and the rules of its members designation ? > > hmm i've wondered this too a while ago, i couldn't find a word in the TDF > statutes about it :) > This is because the ESC is not one of the formal bodies (which are indeed listed in the statutes), but a committee. > > If it is an official TDF committee, why its mailing list is not hosted > > by TDF ? > > due to the fact that it pre-dates the founding of TDF - it exists as long as > the LibreOffice project - its mailing list is hosted on freedesktop.org. > The dev list (libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org) has nothing per se to do with the ESC. Whether it makes sense to move it to TDF is, I believe not material to this discussion (we had William once volunteering to do it, but somehow the project hit the old snag of whether posting requires subscription). The ESC decision-making happens during weekly meetings, the minutes thereof are being hosted on TDF's etherpad instance. And indeed, the ESC was grandfathered in (the old steering committee, which bootstrapped itself from the group of forkers, and was something like an inofficial board before TDF came into existence, decided to set it up). Further info: * list of current board-appointed members is here: https://www.documentfoundation.org/engineering-sc/ * main wiki page: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/ESC * ESC in the org chart: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Organization#Organization_TDF * decisions regarding official ESC member designations - search for esc/ESC at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions All the best, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
hi Jean-Baptiste, On 02.12.22 19:21, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Hi Thorsten, If the ESC is an official TDF committee, where are its statutes, its functioning rules and the rules of its members designation ? hmm i've wondered this too a while ago, i couldn't find a word in the TDF statutes about it :) If it is an official TDF committee, why its mailing list is not hosted by TDF ? due to the fact that it pre-dates the founding of TDF - it exists as long as the LibreOffice project - its mailing list is hosted on freedesktop.org. the address is: libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org probably migrating the mailing list wasn't considered worth the hassle to subscribers? apparently it was called "tech steering" in the beginning? or at least the minutes claimed that was the name? h... the oldest minutes i can find also seem to abbreviate "action item" as "AA:" - that was still the case when i joined, those were the days :) no, found an even older minutes mail - the first one says "technical group" - dated 2010-09-28. https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2010-September/02.html (in case you want to send a mail to all ESC members, sorry but i don't know any more convenient way than to manually put them into the address field in your mail client...) regards, michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi Thorsten, If the ESC is an official TDF committee, where are its statutes, its functioning rules and the rules of its members designation ? If it is an official TDF committee, why its mailing list is not hosted by TDF ? Best regards JBF Le 02/12/2022 à 13:51, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Dear all, sophi wrote: Le 02/12/2022 à 12:10, Michael Stahl a écrit : how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with the ESC? Maybe this is subtle but the term "oversee" for me means to supervise or control. Indeed, the ESC should be supervising the technical direction of the work. That is intended, and makes a ton of sense (since it's an official TDF committee, with board-appointed members, this is not in any way something 'external' to TDF). Best, -- Thorsten -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi all, Am 02.12.22 um 13:51 schrieb Thorsten Behrens: Dear all, sophi wrote: Le 02/12/2022 à 12:10, Michael Stahl a écrit : how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with the ESC? Maybe this is subtle but the term "oversee" for me means to supervise or control. Indeed, the ESC should be supervising the technical direction of the work. That is intended, and makes a ton of sense (since it's an official TDF committee, with board-appointed members, this is not in any way something 'external' to TDF). I have never heard about a software company which put their staff under the control of external (likely competing) companies. The ESC is appointed by the Board but full of staff from external companies (or software developer). 17 of 22 members of the ESC are from external companies (or software developer) (https://www.documentfoundation.org/engineering-sc/). But I'm curious about examples from the outside, where companies/organizations follow such rules. Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Dear all, sophi wrote: > Le 02/12/2022 à 12:10, Michael Stahl a écrit : > > how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, > > Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with > > the ESC? > > Maybe this is subtle but the term "oversee" for me means to supervise or > control. > Indeed, the ESC should be supervising the technical direction of the work. That is intended, and makes a ton of sense (since it's an official TDF committee, with board-appointed members, this is not in any way something 'external' to TDF). Best, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi Michael, Le 02/12/2022 à 12:10, Michael Stahl a écrit : hi Stephan, On 02.12.22 11:12, Stephan Ficht wrote: Dear board, hi all, = Foreword: I here speak in my capacity as a Member of the Board of Trustees. = This part of the vote TDF will seek to hire a developer(s); - who will report [...], and consult weekly with the ESC, which will oversee the technical direction of the work; is in my opinion not acceptable. This results in TDF (the employer) paying for the staff but others will have the saying about their tasks. how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with the ESC? Maybe this is subtle but the term "oversee" for me means to supervise or control. I would very much prefer "support" because this is what I think the ESC does with its members. At least this was what I feel when I participated. On the contrary, this is the ED and BoD role to oversee what we do. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier so...@libreoffice.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: soph Foundation coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[DISCUSS] Re: [board-discuss] [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
hi Stephan, On 02.12.22 11:12, Stephan Ficht wrote: Dear board, hi all, = Foreword: I here speak in my capacity as a Member of the Board of Trustees. = This part of the vote TDF will seek to hire a developer(s); - who will report [...], and consult weekly with the ESC, which will oversee the technical direction of the work; is in my opinion not acceptable. This results in TDF (the employer) paying for the staff but others will have the saying about their tasks. how is this different from TDF employees Cloph, Heiko, Hossein, Ilmari, Olivier, Stéphane, Sophie, and Xisco, who already consult weekly with the ESC? regards, michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
