Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
On 03/29/2013 05:03 PM, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Tom Davies wrote: That 40 sounds bizzare. This amount refers to presents (Florian clearly stated that). Reimbursing reasonable expenses made by people travelling on behalf of TDF is not a present. Did you read up on continental tax law? If not, this discussion appears to be a tad pointless to me. Cheers, -- Thorsten I think we can end the conversation all together, we'll plan on going through SPI and Friends of Open Document, worst case I'll buy the stuff with my own money and then get reimbursed. :) Thanks Thorsten for keeping us all up to date with legal stuff and for being patient with my lack of knowledge. We're going to price stuff in the US and Europe to see cheapest prices. Can I get the name of the company you went through for hoodies and tshirts, maybe they'll give us a small deal for repeat customer :) Best, Joel
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Tom Davies wrote: > That 40 sounds bizzare. > This amount refers to presents (Florian clearly stated that). Reimbursing reasonable expenses made by people travelling on behalf of TDF is not a present. Did you read up on continental tax law? If not, this discussion appears to be a tad pointless to me. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > That 40 sounds bizzare. Some have already claimed more than that on > travel without being even slightly dishonourable. Far from it in fact, > they seem to have gone to extraordinary pains to keep costs down and i > really can't imagine people in other organisations going that far. It's an > unworkable amount and must have some provisions to allow for reality?!!? > > Surely the normal way would be for TDF to buy in bulk, obtaining a massive > discount due to that, and then sell on to individuals or groups at more > than TDF paid per item. Groups often do that sort of thing so that > individuals pay less than they would have to if they bought the single item > for themselves. The group gets a tiny profit and hopefully enough to cover > any losses for items that go unsold and wastage, admin, postage, other > overheads with some change left over. The problem might be at what point > that gets considered "Trading" and whether that is allowed. > I know for sure that European laws are very different from US laws. From my understanding $0 profit is allowed, meaning even if we can buy in bulk through TDF, SPI would then purchase the item at a per cost price - even this is not clear though. At this point we are going to move to SPI and see if they can fund a small purchase, moving forward hopefully we find a better solution (might require some legal advice). I think there is some confusion about "prize" vs. "merchandise" vs. using "merchandise" as an incentive to join the contest which we are discussing. I'm not sure if merchandise becomes a prize if it is used in such a context. Because of these limitations and questions, we'll just go to SPI and/or Friends of Open Document for funding - it shouldn't be that much for this particular contest and I've been told that if I purchase out of pocket I will get a refund from someone. Best, Joel -- *Joel Madero* LibreOffice QA Volunteer jmadero@gmail.com
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi, Tom Davies wrote on 2013-03-28 20:33: That 40 sounds bizzare. Some have already claimed more than that on travel without being even slightly dishonourable. Far from it in fact, they seem to have gone to extraordinary pains to keep costs down and i really can't imagine people in other organisations going that far. It's an unworkable amount and must have some provisions to allow for reality?!!? well, as said, Thorsten has most insight here. From what I know expenses like travel are no problem, because they are simply a refund for occured costs. However, individual financial contributions to people is limited to 40 € per year. If you give someone a present bag for their birthday, if you invite someone for dinner, if you give someone a t-shirt or other swag as a prize, that counts for the 40 €. I'm not saying I like this, but it's tax law. There is of course a distinction between general expenses and individual support, but we need to take care, which is why SPI is better. Florian
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi :) That 40 sounds bizzare. Some have already claimed more than that on travel without being even slightly dishonourable. Far from it in fact, they seem to have gone to extraordinary pains to keep costs down and i really can't imagine people in other organisations going that far. It's an unworkable amount and must have some provisions to allow for reality?!!? Surely the normal way would be for TDF to buy in bulk, obtaining a massive discount due to that, and then sell on to individuals or groups at more than TDF paid per item. Groups often do that sort of thing so that individuals pay less than they would have to if they bought the single item for themselves. The group gets a tiny profit and hopefully enough to cover any losses for items that go unsold and wastage, admin, postage, other overheads with some change left over. The problem might be at what point that gets considered "Trading" and whether that is allowed. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Robinson Tryon >To: Joel Madero >Cc: Florian Effenberger ; Michael Meeks >; market...@us.libreoffice.org; >board-discuss@documentfoundation.org; libreoffice-dev > >Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 18:37 >Subject: Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase? > >On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Joel Madero wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Florian Effenberger >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-03-28 12:56: >>>> >>>> The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here:-) The >>>> plan >>>> is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue. >>> >>> >>> sure, that would be no issue then. :) >> >> >> So if I'm reading this right, even if we combine with an event that we need >> LibreOffice gear, we can't use that gear as a prize and therefor TDF cannot >> be involved at all? If this is the case I'll plan on going through SPI which >> is cool but will be unfortunate in the sense that we could spend more than >> necessary as a bulk order may cut cost substantially. > >I think it would be perfectly fine for an individual to place an bulk >order for 50 T-shirts, and then have SPI buy 20 of them, TDF buy 20 >more, and have a few individuals buy 1 or 2 each. > >As long as we keep our noses clean and make sure that... >1) We get the organizations/individuals to pre-order the merchandise >2) We don't spend more than 40 € of TDF's money per year, per person >3) We make sure to deliver the merchandise once it arrives > >...then I think that we should be okay. At least that's how I >understand the situation, anyhow :-) > > >Cheers, >--R > > > >
Re: [us-marketing] Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hi, > > Robinson Tryon wrote on 2013-03-28 19:37: > >> 2) We don't spend more than 40 € of TDF's money per year, per person > > > remember there are certain things we need to count in here, including e.g. a > possible party at the next LibOCon. Doing via SPI is *much* better. Oh, certainly. I was just trying to assert the point that it should be technically possible for us to accomplish a bulk purchase of items by having a separate entity (e.g. an individual) coordinate and make the actual purchase. Quick question: How does the 40 € rule apply if, say, Marketing wants to purchase $200 of assorted T-shirts, pens, and stickers to distribute? Does Marketing in that circumstance need to provide a description of how they're going to distribute the swag and to whom? Thanks, --R
Re: [us-marketing] Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi, Robinson Tryon wrote on 2013-03-28 19:37: 2) We don't spend more than 40 € of TDF's money per year, per person remember there are certain things we need to count in here, including e.g. a possible party at the next LibOCon. Doing via SPI is *much* better. Florian
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Joel Madero wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Florian Effenberger > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-03-28 12:56: >>> >>> The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here:-) The >>> plan >>> is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue. >> >> >> sure, that would be no issue then. :) > > > So if I'm reading this right, even if we combine with an event that we need > LibreOffice gear, we can't use that gear as a prize and therefor TDF cannot > be involved at all? If this is the case I'll plan on going through SPI which > is cool but will be unfortunate in the sense that we could spend more than > necessary as a bulk order may cut cost substantially. I think it would be perfectly fine for an individual to place an bulk order for 50 T-shirts, and then have SPI buy 20 of them, TDF buy 20 more, and have a few individuals buy 1 or 2 each. As long as we keep our noses clean and make sure that... 1) We get the organizations/individuals to pre-order the merchandise 2) We don't spend more than 40 € of TDF's money per year, per person 3) We make sure to deliver the merchandise once it arrives ...then I think that we should be okay. At least that's how I understand the situation, anyhow :-) Cheers, --R
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi, Joel Madero wrote on 2013-03-28 19:29: So if I'm reading this right, even if we combine with an event that we need LibreOffice gear, we can't use that gear as a prize and therefor TDF cannot be involved at all? If this is the case I'll plan on going through SPI which is cool but will be unfortunate in the sense that we could spend more than necessary as a bulk order may cut cost substantially. Thorsten should know the details, but the general notion is that individual presents for people are locked to 40 € per year. There's a slight difference in how things are done, but I lack the exact insight here, Thorsten knows best. SPI should be no problem at all, though. Florian
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Florian Effenberger < flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi, > > Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-03-28 12:56: > >> The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here:-) The >> plan >> is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue. >> > > sure, that would be no issue then. :) So if I'm reading this right, even if we combine with an event that we need LibreOffice gear, we can't use that gear as a prize and therefor TDF cannot be involved at all? If this is the case I'll plan on going through SPI which is cool but will be unfortunate in the sense that we could spend more than necessary as a bulk order may cut cost substantially. Best, Joel -- *Joel Madero* LibreOffice QA Volunteer jmadero@gmail.com
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi, Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-03-28 12:56: The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here:-) The plan is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue. sure, that would be no issue then. :) Florian
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi Florian, On Thu, 2013-03-28 at 11:12 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Robinson Tryon wrote on 2013-03-28 05:19: > > We're looking to purchase some swag and goodies for the contest. Some > > of the ideas we've come up with have included: > > please check with Thorsten first The stop energy has already reached epic proportions here :-) The plan is to encourage SPI to fund this - which should be no issue. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot
Re: [board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hi, Robinson Tryon wrote on 2013-03-28 05:19: We're looking to purchase some swag and goodies for the contest. Some of the ideas we've come up with have included: please check with Thorsten first - TDF cannot legally spend more than 40 € per year individually for each member, including hoodies, food and other items. So having hoodies etc. as prize for a contest would be highly problematic, IMHO. Florian
[board-discuss] LibreOffice Swag/Merchandise Bulk Purchase?
Hiya, The QA Team is currently planning to have a Triage Contest[1] in June to help us confirm and prioritize unconfirmed bugs. We're hoping to take a big bite out of the backlog of bugs in Bugzilla and to encourage more volunteers to join LibreOffice and the QA Team. We're looking to purchase some swag and goodies for the contest. Some of the ideas we've come up with have included: - T-Shirts - Mugs - Posters - Pens - Pins - Patches - Hoodies - Laptop cases Is anyone in US-Marketing considering a purchase of these (or similar) items in the next few months? We're thinking that for shipping reasons we'd want to source items locally in both Europe and the US. If you're interested in purchasing 5 or 500 items, we'd definitely be interested in pooling our resources for the task. Thanks! -- Robinson 'qubit' Tryon (Per JMadero, I'm cc'ing the BoD and Developers, in case either of you needs to make a similar purchase for a planned event) [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bug_Triage_Contest
