RE: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[Nick Lidster]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William T Goodall
Sent: December 31, 2005 3:28 PM
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: Re: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us


On 31 Dec 2005, at 3:24 pm, Gary Nunn wrote:

>
> I apologize in advance, because I know this topic can get a bit  
> heated on
> this list. The reason I'm posting this, is because this is the  
> first media
> article that I've seen, from a major media outlet, that makes an  
> attempt to
> be fair and accurate.
>

>If the difference in violent crime or murder rates or whatever was  
>really obviously significantly different between gun-control/non-gun- 
>control areas then one side or the other of the debate would be  
>trumpeting that fact loudly. So whatever difference guns make it  
>isn't enough for either side to have proved it after years of argument.

>Given that we have strict controls over the sale of alcohol, tobacco,  
>fireworks and other possibly harmful materials it seems entirely  
>sensible and in line with other regulation to control firearms sales  
>especially since there is no compelling evidence that they  
>significantly improve (or harm) personal safety *in general* but are  
>obviously dangerous items individually.

>Most comparisons of gun ownership/crime rates are apples/oranges  
>comparisons. Anomalies like Switzerland crop up.

>I'd be interested in a comparison of the USA with places that are  
>similar such as Canada or Australia. That might be more enlightening  
>than comparisons with Europe or South America.


>-- 
>William T Goodall
>Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
>Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

>If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C?

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http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050628/d050628a.htm

"Health Reports: Deaths involving firearms
2002:
 
The rate of deaths involving firearms declined by more than one-half between
1979 and 2002, according to a new report based on the most recent data
available from the Canadian Mortality Data Base.

The report in the latest edition of Health Reports showed that 816
individuals — 767 males and 49 females — died from injuries related to
firearms in 2002.

Among males, this represented a rate of 4.9 deaths for every 100,000
population, down from 10.6 in 1979. The rate for females fell from 1.2
deaths for every 100,000 population to 0.3.

In each year during this period, about four-fifths of firearms-related
deaths were suicides. Homicides accounted for around 15% of such deaths, and
about 4% were unintentional.

In 1979, the rate of deaths related to firearms was highest among young
people aged 15 to 24. By 2002, the differences between age groups had
largely disappeared for people aged 15 or older.

The risk of death from an injury related to firearms was a fraction of that
in the United States. In 2000, the rate of homicide involving a gun in the
United States was 3.8 for every 100,000 population, nearly eight times
Canada's rate of 0.5.

In Canada, homicides accounted for 18% of deaths involving firearms in 2000,
compared with 38% in the United States.

Decline in homicide rates involving firearms:

Canada's rate of homicide involving firearms declined since 1979, mirroring
a decrease in the overall homicide rate. However, the proportion of
homicides in which a firearm was used remained fairly stable over the entire
period at just under one-third.

A report based on police records indicates that handguns accounted for
two-thirds of homicides involving firearms in 2002, up from about one-half
during the 1990s. Rifles and shotguns accounted for one-quarter of all
homicides involving firearms.

In 2002, 31 people were unintentionally killed by firearms, less than
one-half of the total of 71 in 1979. Three of the victims in 2002 were
younger than 15, compared with 16 in 1979. Another 3 were between 15 and 24
compared with 27 in 1979. Declines in death rates in these two age groups
accounted for much of the drop in the overall rate of unintentional
firearms-related deaths between 1979 and 2002.

Among all suicides committed throughout the 1980s, around one in three
involved firearms. By 2002, this proportion had declined to only about one
in six."



Ok with the US being roughly 10x the pop of Canada were at about 32.5
million right now that would put us scaled up at about 8200 persons having
firearm related deaths. With direct homicide that would be about 2500 at us
pop. Our rate hold true to about one third of firearm related deaths being
homicides.

Keep in mind that this is all 2002 stats well '77 through'02 and this year
in Ontario alone the total fire arm deaths are @ 71 up 30 from previous
years that’s a 73% jump. The latest was a boxing day shooting in Toronto
that claimed the life of a 15 year old girl and injured 6 others. Its now
looking like there will be a near total ban on all hand guns if the Liberals

Re: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid.

[Doug Pensinger]

Hey, Michael, welcome back!  Where are you going to school?

Doug

Michael wrote:


I'm back.

Worry not.  I'm here only as a distraction.  Merely an escape to fill my 
time until the Spring semester begins or I get a job, whichever comes 
first.  If the load isn't as heavy as I remember it, I may stay on 
digest mode after.  I'll probably spark a discussion in a day or two, 
but I just wanted to say hello for now.


Michael Harney
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Random witticism: There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those that 
understand binary; and those that don't.

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Mat "Squeaky" Hazley completes hiking's Triple Crown

[kerri miller]

Said to be nigh-on impossible, Mat "Squeaky" Hazley completed hiking's Triple
Crown yesterday in 240 days, the fastest time on record, and only the second
person to complete all three long-distance trails in a single year.

Averaging 40 to 45 miles a day, Squeaky finished the 2650 mile PCT, 2174 mile
Appalachian Trail, and the 3100 mile Continental Divide Trail, travelling
through 22 states and over 1 million feet of vertical acsent.

Squeaky's trail journal: http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=89893

Interview with Squeaky:
http://www.trailcast.org/podcasts/trailcast-12-Dec-25-2005.mp3





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Re: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 02:04 PM Saturday 12/31/2005, Doug Pensinger wrote:

William wrote:

Gary wrote:




I apologize in advance, because I know this topic can get a 
bit  heated on this list. The reason I'm posting this, is because this is the
first media article that I've seen, from a major media outlet, 
that makes an  attempt to be fair and accurate.


If the difference in violent crime or murder rates or whatever was
really obviously significantly different between 
gun-control/non-gun- control areas then one side or the other of 
the debate would be
trumpeting that fact loudly. So whatever difference guns make 
it  isn't enough for either side to have proved it after years of argument.


Given that we have strict controls over the sale of alcohol, tobacco,
fireworks and other possibly harmful materials it seems entirely
sensible and in line with other regulation to control firearms sales
especially since there is no compelling evidence that they
significantly improve (or harm) personal safety *in general* but are
obviously dangerous items individually.

Most comparisons of gun ownership/crime rates are apples/oranges
comparisons. Anomalies like Switzerland crop up.

I'd be interested in a comparison of the USA with places that are
similar such as Canada or Australia. That might be more enlightening
than comparisons with Europe or South America.


A few points.  First, its very disturbing to me that people feel the 
need to carry deadly force with them in order to feel safe.  Second, 
how fair is it that the article doesn't mention that the reason the 
gun laws don't work might be that they are not enforced? 
  Third, the 
article points out that fewer than 100 kids died in gun accidents 
last year, but fails to point out how many were killed in all 
firearm incidents.  I'd be surprised if that number was lower than 
2,500. Fourth, the fact is that no matter how poorly gun laws are 
working at present, gun violence is a plague.


I'm a realist when it comes to firearms in this country; we'd sooner 
ban pizza than guns.  But that doesn't negate the fact that they're 
a serious problem.



Even if you count the number of suicides as well as homicides and 
accidents in the total of deaths due to firearms, IIRC about as many 
or more people die in the US each year due to AIDS, and IIRC about 
twice as many die in automobile accidents, of which about half 
(according to those who collect the statistics) are due to alcohol 
use.  What do you suggest might be banned to prevent those 
deaths?  Or is the one thing common to all three personal responsibility?



--Ronn!  :)

"Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country 
and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER 
GOD.  Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that 
would be eliminated from schools too?"

   -- Red Skelton

(Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.)




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Re: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[Julia Thompson]

Doug Pensinger wrote:

I'm a realist when it comes to firearms in this country; we'd sooner ban 
pizza than guns.  But that doesn't negate the fact that they're a 
serious problem.


I'd sooner ban guns than pizza.  Not sure how my next-door neighbor who 
owns a pizza joint and a gun feels about it.  :)  I think he gets a lot 
more out of the pizza joint than the gun, for the most part.


But where I am, you'd have a much easier time banning pizza than guns. 
The pizza wouldn't be easy, though.  (Especially the stuff our neighbor 
makes -- it's really good.)


Julia


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Re: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[Doug Pensinger]

William wrote:




Gary wrote:




I apologize in advance, because I know this topic can get a bit  heated 
on this list. The reason I'm posting this, is because this is the  
first media article that I've seen, from a major media outlet, that 
makes an  attempt to be fair and accurate.




If the difference in violent crime or murder rates or whatever was  
really obviously significantly different between gun-control/non-gun- 
control areas then one side or the other of the debate would be  
trumpeting that fact loudly. So whatever difference guns make it  isn't 
enough for either side to have proved it after years of argument.


Given that we have strict controls over the sale of alcohol, tobacco,  
fireworks and other possibly harmful materials it seems entirely  
sensible and in line with other regulation to control firearms sales  
especially since there is no compelling evidence that they  
significantly improve (or harm) personal safety *in general* but are  
obviously dangerous items individually.


Most comparisons of gun ownership/crime rates are apples/oranges  
comparisons. Anomalies like Switzerland crop up.


I'd be interested in a comparison of the USA with places that are  
similar such as Canada or Australia. That might be more enlightening  
than comparisons with Europe or South America.


A few points.  First, its very disturbing to me that people feel the need 
to carry deadly force with them in order to feel safe.  Second, how fair 
is it that the article doesn't mention that the reason the gun laws don't 
work might be that they are not enforced? 
  Third, the article 
points out that fewer than 100 kids died in gun accidents last year, but 
fails to point out how many were killed in all firearm incidents.  I'd be 
surprised if that number was lower than 2,500. Fourth, the fact is that no 
matter how poorly gun laws are working at present, gun violence is a 
plague.


I'm a realist when it comes to firearms in this country; we'd sooner ban 
pizza than guns.  But that doesn't negate the fact that they're a serious 
problem.


--
Doug
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Re: Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[William T Goodall]

On 31 Dec 2005, at 3:24 pm, Gary Nunn wrote:



I apologize in advance, because I know this topic can get a bit  
heated on
this list. The reason I'm posting this, is because this is the  
first media
article that I've seen, from a major media outlet, that makes an  
attempt to

be fair and accurate.



If the difference in violent crime or murder rates or whatever was  
really obviously significantly different between gun-control/non-gun- 
control areas then one side or the other of the debate would be  
trumpeting that fact loudly. So whatever difference guns make it  
isn't enough for either side to have proved it after years of argument.


Given that we have strict controls over the sale of alcohol, tobacco,  
fireworks and other possibly harmful materials it seems entirely  
sensible and in line with other regulation to control firearms sales  
especially since there is no compelling evidence that they  
significantly improve (or harm) personal safety *in general* but are  
obviously dangerous items individually.


Most comparisons of gun ownership/crime rates are apples/oranges  
comparisons. Anomalies like Switzerland crop up.


I'd be interested in a comparison of the USA with places that are  
similar such as Canada or Australia. That might be more enlightening  
than comparisons with Europe or South America.



--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C?

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Re: Media Myth # 1 missing..

[Julia Thompson]

Gary Nunn wrote:

I just realized that Media Myth #1 was missing from that ABCnews article I
posted a link to.  I did a quick search, and found this (see below) but
couldn't find the write-up on it


1. The rivers around New York city are toxic.


I e-mailed support and asked where that one had got to.  We'll see if 
anything ever comes of it


Julia

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Media Myth # 1 missing..

[Gary Nunn]

I just realized that Media Myth #1 was missing from that ABCnews article I
posted a link to.  I did a quick search, and found this (see below) but
couldn't find the write-up on it


1. The rivers around New York city are toxic.

 

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Media Myth - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

[Gary Nunn]

I apologize in advance, because I know this topic can get a bit heated on
this list. The reason I'm posting this, is because this is the first media
article that I've seen, from a major media outlet, that makes an attempt to
be fair and accurate.

(link to complete list of myths at the bottom)



Myths, Lies and Straight Talk
A List of 10 Media-Fed Myths

MYTH # 5 - Guns Are Always Bad for Us

America is notorious for its culture of gun violence. Guns sometimes do
cause terrible harm, and many kids are killed every year in gun accidents.
But public service announcements and news stories make it seem as if the
accidents kill thousands of kids every year.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, however, fewer
than 100 kids 15 and under are killed in gun accidents every year. Of course
that's horrible, and I understand why demonstrators say we need more gun
control.

But guess what? The Centers for Disease Control recently completed a review
of studies of various types of gun control: background checks, waiting
periods, bans on certain guns and ammunition. It could not document that
these rules have reduced violent crime. 

The government wants to say regulations and laws like the Brady Gun Control
Law are making a difference, but they aren't. Some maximum security felons I
spoke to in New Jersey scoffed at measures like the Brady law. They said
they'll have no trouble getting guns if they want them.

A Justice Department study confirmed what the prisoners said. But get this:
the felons say that the thing they fear the most is not the police, not time
in prison, but, you, another American who might be armed.

It's a reason many states are passing gun un-control. They're allowing
citizens to carry guns with them, it's called concealed carry or right to
carry. Some women say they're comforted by these laws. 

But many people, including Rev. Al Sharpton, are horrified at the idea of
concealed carry laws, and predict mayhem if all states adopt these laws. 

But surprise, 36 states already have concealed carry laws; and not one
reported an upsurge in gun crime. 

 
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123606


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Fascist Catholic Censorship Speads to Viacom and Comedy Central

[The Fool]

<>

"South Park" Parked by Complaints

By Sarah Hall 

Did Comedy Central grant the Catholic League its Christmas wish? 

Following the Dec. 7 season finale of South Park, titled "Bloody Mary,"
the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights slammed the network
for its irreverent portrayal of church icons and sought to block the
episode from being rebroadcast.

It appears the group may have met with success. A repeat of the finale
was scheduled to air Wednesday night, but was pulled from the Comedy
Central lineup without explanation.

...



--
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved 
innocent 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
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