Re: Brin: Language
On 29/06/2009, at 10:58 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 3:00 PM, KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to hear Dr. Brin's thoughts on this: http://edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html He touched on the concept in some of the Uplift Novels, where galactic languages have generally been constructed in a way that eliminates metaphore. I don't recall that.. and it would have struck me, I would have thought, since it seems impossible to have language without metaphor. It's almost not language unless there's metaphor. Hmmm. I think that's pushing the definition of language. While wordplay and flexibility are hallmarks of English and many other languages, it was a lot harder to do metaphor in Latin, and not possible at all in most machine languages (and totally overused in, say, Mayan...). If we treat language as a system of symbols or sounds designed for communication, metaphor can often be as detrimental to communication as it can be evocative. It's almost not language without simile, maybe. (Or smilies... ;-) Wahay, worked a pun in...) I do recall something about language in the Uplift books, but the much more blatant example is Marain in the Culture books - again designed to eliminate confuzzlement. Charlie. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
Unlurking for a second to top post as this discussion converges on a few of my interests. He touched on the concept in some of the Uplift Novels, where galactic languages have generally been constructed in a way that eliminates metaphore. I don't recall that.. and it would have struck me, I would have thought, since it seems impossible to have language without metaphor. It's almost not language unless there's metaphor. Could a sufficient condition of such a language be to enable speakers to fully avoid metaphor, rather than to fully prevent? In other words, when used a certain way, the language fully lacks metaphoric content. I think a language that fully prevents metaphoric content would need to meet two conditions: it would be fully definitional, and to do that, you'd need a rather interesting, if not impossible, complete ontology of the universe. In other words, you'd need to be able to refer to anything in the universe uniquely and successfully without referencing other things in it by metaphor. So not: Yeah, well, a cat is like a dog with more attitude and a penchant for mice. So I'd err in having a method for using metaphor in that language in order to define. And later, reference only the definitions. Carolyn Okay so that's not quite a top post. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Iran
xponentrob wrote: Agreed. Iranians seem to have had no stomach for a general strike. I think they would like to, but the reality on the ground is not conducive to an action that would entail incredible sacrifice and an obvious hardship on all. (I'm guessing it generally works this way in fascist countries?) Yes. Been there. Our fascist dictatorship fell (probably) because the fascists were tired of being ridiculed by the population. The subtle and persistent strategy of Humour is far more powerful than guns or strikes. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
SPOILER ALERT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie Bell wrote: I do recall something about language in the Uplift books, but the much more blatant example is Marain in the Culture books - again designed to eliminate confuzzlement. A REALLY BIG ONE!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Galactic Languages were not designed to avoid ambiguity, they were designed to avoid _creativity_ (and testing the System) - it's in Heaven's Reach. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
Carolyn L Burke wrote: I think a language that fully prevents metaphoric content would need to meet two conditions: it would be fully definitional, and to do that, you'd need a rather interesting, if not impossible, complete ontology of the universe. In other words, you'd need to be able to refer to anything in the universe uniquely and successfully without referencing other things in it by metaphor. So not: Yeah, well, a cat is like a dog with more attitude and a penchant for mice. But this is not a metaphor!!! This is a _simile_. A metaphor is: A cat is a dog with more attitude and a penchant for mice. A fully logical language would reject the previus sentence as false, because a cat is not a dog - GAME OVER. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
--- On Mon, 6/29/09, Alberto Monteiro albm...@centroin.com.br wrote: But this is not a metaphor!!! This is a _simile_. Heh. A metaphor is: A cat is a dog with more attitude and a penchant for mice. A fully logical language would reject the previus sentence as false, because a cat is not a dog - GAME OVER. Now those are shades of Russell, or early Wittgenstein. C___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
see below... - Original Message From: Alberto Monteiro albm...@centroin.com.br To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:32:29 AM Subject: Re: Brin: Language SPOILER ALERT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie Bell wrote: I do recall something about language in the Uplift books, but the much more blatant example is Marain in the Culture books - again designed to eliminate confuzzlement. A REALLY BIG ONE!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Galactic Languages were not designed to avoid ambiguity, they were designed to avoid _creativity_ (and testing the System) - it's in Heaven's Reach. Alberto Monteiro I think that design feature was a major part of only *some* of the languages (Gal Two?), as an utter lack of creativity or ambiguity can be an asset for things like legal contracts and technical specs. There were some examples of creativity possible with the other galactic languages -- Tom sent a message with a pun that only works Gal Six near the climax of Startide Rising. That being said, Anglic is still probably more flexible by several degrees. -- Matt ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
At 12:21 PM Monday 6/29/2009, Matt Grimaldi wrote: see below... - Original Message From: Alberto Monteiro albm...@centroin.com.br To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:32:29 AM Subject: Re: Brin: Language SPOILER ALERT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie Bell wrote: I do recall something about language in the Uplift books, but the much more blatant example is Marain in the Culture books - again designed to eliminate confuzzlement. A REALLY BIG ONE!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Galactic Languages were not designed to avoid ambiguity, they were designed to avoid _creativity_ (and testing the System) - it's in Heaven's Reach. Alberto Monteiro I think that design feature was a major part of only *some* of the languages (Gal Two?), as an utter lack of creativity or ambiguity can be an asset for things like legal contracts and technical specs. Which shows how diametrically different Galactic lawyers are to US lawyers, who are frequently hired to find some way of making the contract say the exact opposite of what it is meant to say because one of the signatories wants to do what he wants rather than what he agreed to. ObSF quote: In one respect at least the Martians are a happy people; they have no lawyers. -- Edgar Rice Burroughs, A Princess of Mars . . . ronn! :) ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: SCOUTED: e-Bike Project
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Dave Landdml...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, A guy on a Canon 10D camera mailing list has been documenting his progress to convert a (fairly cheap, from the look of things) bike to an electric bike by replacing the front wheel with one that has a HUGE hub containing a motor. http://www.dlpco.com/2009EBike/ This is too cool! Now if I only knew how to ride a bike... -- Mauro Diotallevi The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
That being said, Anglic is still probably more flexible by several degrees. -- Matt Anglic is very flexible. And symmetric. No galactic alphabet has characters that can be reversed or flipped. Dyslexia is impossible. But in Anglic, a d flipped once becomes a b. Flipped again, it's a p. And a flipped p becomes a q. With holographic projection, it becomes easy to flip letters, hence the story idea Dr. Brin let me play about with. Sah'ot invents a form of poetry that can only exist as a projected cube, as the poems change depending upon which face is down, and if the reader is inside the cube, or outside looking through two faces. -- Another Anglic flexibility that I hope gets used in an Uplift novel is the fact that Galactics have no concept of different fonts. William Taylor **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072hmpgID=62bcd= JunestepsfooterNO62) ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Iran
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:38 AM, Charlie Bell char...@culturelist.orgwrote: On 28/06/2009, at 1:25 PM, dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote: Um... a ship? Do you mean the Marines patrol boat a couple of years ago? Wasn't a ship. Sorry Charlie. You have to remember that, when I was I kid I was on many a boat longer than 200 meters, with the biggest over 300 meters and 30k tons. I realize that it wasn't a big ship, but the way I was raised: saltwater=ship, freshwater=boat. Size didn't matter. It's not size, it's type. Submarines are boats... (they're also it, not she to anyone who's not actually a submariner). :-) Sure, it's probably a regional usage difference (like LEFT-enant in Britain and Australia), but a patrol craft, a fast-attack craft (like the couple of hydrofoils with guns we've had over the years) or a merchant vessel with only 15 or so crew is usually a boat if you're talking about a British vessel. C. That's how it was when I was in the USN, 29 years ago. Subs are 'boats' as are small craft generally. Although, we used to refer to our ship as a 'boat' as in Gotta report aboard the boat in the morning. (I served aboard USS Eisenhower, but in an aircraft squadron, I was not in ship''s company). And, I thought it was pronounced LEF-tenant. john air-head maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Language
Which shows how diametrically different Galactic lawyers are to US lawyers, who are frequently hired to find some way of making the contract say the exact opposite of what it is meant to say because one of the signatories wants to do what he wants rather than what he agreed to. YEP! In one respect at least the Martians are a happy people; they have no lawyers. -- Edgar Rice Burroughs, A Princess of Mars Actually, it is much more subtle than that. Lawyers are like bees. They really can be very useful. But in large quantities they kill. My allegory? How can we both help Russia and the US at the same time? Send tham half our lawyers - freedom in both countries will go up. Send half the graduates of our Business Schools. Both economies skyrocket. Send half of Nasa's managers. We get a good space program, they get some good farm labor.___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
1.8026174996769472E+12 furlongs per fortnight
http://www.nobrowcartoons.com/gallery/big_midres/201%20speed%20of%20light%20in%20vacuum.jpg ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
