Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Trent Shipley]

Nick Arnett wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Andrew Crystall
> mailto:dawnfal...@upliftwar.com>> wrote:
>
> On 29 Dec 2009 at 16:11, Trent Shipley wrote:
>
> > >> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi. I absolutely detest MediaWiki, though, so I won't be much
> use for
> > > this. (Fos/T Wiki, now...)
>
> > Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.
> >
> > Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the
> back end.
>
> Well, Foswiki is flat-file, heh. It scales better than you think from
> that though. Honestly, if we're going to be doing anything involving
> access permissions (and a scifi lit wiki sounds like we are), then
> I'm recommend not using Mediawiki, you tend to end up doing some
> nasty hacks.
>
> Foswiki is a hierarchial wiki with proper access permissions and so
> on. It also uses a different markup language to Mediawiki, and one
> which I greatly prefer, although I admit if you've only learned
> mediawiki there is a small learning curve. You can also do some
> fairly good tricks with the markup in creating apps and specially
> formatted pages.
>
>
> As long as it runs on Linux (that's the hosted environment) and we can
> reach consensus AND it isn't a CPU hog (important for costs), I'm fine
> with whatever.  Memory and disk space seem to be non-issues for
> practical purposes.
>
> Nick
>
> 
>
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>
>   
Andrew seems to be saying that Foswiki is a dreamboat to administer. 
That is in keeping with Foswiki's marketing position.

http://foswiki.org/Community/DescriptionsOfFoswiki


"Foswiki is a structured wiki with tools that enable users without
programming skills to build powerful yet simple applications to process
information and support workflows."


The Foswiki community is actually positioning the product as what I call
an un-wiki.  If you turn everything off it works like wikis were
originally intended to work with no workflow model and two levels of
heirarchy, administrators and participants (and administrators were
supposed to mostly lurk).  But they are really meant to be used with
multiple roles, hierarchies of users, and workflow events like form
approvals and change management -- an un-wiki designed for business.


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Shopping for a wiki

[Trent Shipley]

I am with a little group of science fiction fans.  We are looking at
starting a science fiction wiki with synopses, reviews, literary
criticism, and above all trivia.  We have a big vision for the site
since Wikipedia won't let us put our trivia there and it annoys us.  So
basically the vision is for an encyclopedia, but different content from
Wikipedia.  The obvious choice is MediaWiki.


One potential participant writes, "I hate MediaWiki and will not
participate as a technician if you use it."  Fine, so we ask him why he
doesn't like it and to pick anything he likes as long as it uses either
MySQL or Postgresql on the back end.


The potential participant says he hates MediaWiki because it was
designed with a flat user model.  It has no built in hierarchy and we
will want hierarchy.   He also says he *LOVES* Foswiki.  Oh one little
thing, it uses a flat file back end, but no worries it will scale.


I have a database background, the news that Foswiki does NOT use a RDBMS
as a back end set off all kinds of alarms.  Nevertheless, Foswiki is a
strong candidate to be the engine for our project.


-

   1. Is Foswiki a good candidate for our encyclopedia project?
   2. How do you store your data?
   3. Why is your storage as reliable as MySQL?
   4. How do I back up your wiki?
   5. I think I can extract data from MediaWiki as MySQL SQL scripts
  that are almost portable.  Can I do something similar with Foswiki?
   6. Can I run 24/7/365?
   7. Our project leader is not only talented technically, he is a good
  marketer.  We plan to be _very_ successful.  How does Foswiki
  scale?  What is the biggest Foswiki wiki today?



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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Nick Arnett]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Andrew Crystall
wrote:

> On 29 Dec 2009 at 16:11, Trent Shipley wrote:
>
> > >> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi. I absolutely detest MediaWiki, though, so I won't be much use for
> > > this. (Fos/T Wiki, now...)
>
> > Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.
> >
> > Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the back end.
>
> Well, Foswiki is flat-file, heh. It scales better than you think from
> that though. Honestly, if we're going to be doing anything involving
> access permissions (and a scifi lit wiki sounds like we are), then
> I'm recommend not using Mediawiki, you tend to end up doing some
> nasty hacks.
>
> Foswiki is a hierarchial wiki with proper access permissions and so
> on. It also uses a different markup language to Mediawiki, and one
> which I greatly prefer, although I admit if you've only learned
> mediawiki there is a small learning curve. You can also do some
> fairly good tricks with the markup in creating apps and specially
> formatted pages.


As long as it runs on Linux (that's the hosted environment) and we can reach
consensus AND it isn't a CPU hog (important for costs), I'm fine with
whatever.  Memory and disk space seem to be non-issues for practical
purposes.

Nick
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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Andrew Crystall]

On 29 Dec 2009 at 16:11, Trent Shipley wrote:

> >> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
> >> 
> >
> > Hi. I absolutely detest MediaWiki, though, so I won't be much use for 
> > this. (Fos/T Wiki, now...)

> Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.
> 
> Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the back end.

Well, Foswiki is flat-file, heh. It scales better than you think from 
that though. Honestly, if we're going to be doing anything involving 
access permissions (and a scifi lit wiki sounds like we are), then 
I'm recommend not using Mediawiki, you tend to end up doing some 
nasty hacks.

Foswiki is a hierarchial wiki with proper access permissions and so 
on. It also uses a different markup language to Mediawiki, and one 
which I greatly prefer, although I admit if you've only learned 
mediawiki there is a small learning curve. You can also do some 
fairly good tricks with the markup in creating apps and specially 
formatted pages.

I've used it professionally and I also use it for my own 
documentation needs.

AndrewC

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Trent Shipley]

Nick Arnett wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Trent Shipley  > wrote:
>
>
> Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.
>
> Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the back
> end.
>
>
> That is correct, except that MySQL isn't even absolutely required...
> it's just that I know it very well, which makes it more appealing to me. 
>
> And my two cents on content - I totally agree about no fan fiction...
> that's not the kind of content a wiki is for, in my opinion.
>
> Nick
>
> 
>
> ___
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>
>   
So the back end needs to be both a real database and a free database. 
That lets you use MySQL or Postgresql.

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Nick Arnett]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Trent Shipley  wrote:

>
> Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.
>
> Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the back end.


That is correct, except that MySQL isn't even absolutely required... it's
just that I know it very well, which makes it more appealing to me.

And my two cents on content - I totally agree about no fan fiction... that's
not the kind of content a wiki is for, in my opinion.

Nick
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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Trent Shipley]

Andrew Crystall wrote:

> On 28 Dec 2009 at 17:16, Nick Arnett wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going.
>>
>> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
>> 
>
> Hi. I absolutely detest MediaWiki, though, so I won't be much use for 
> this. (Fos/T Wiki, now...)
>
> AndrewC
> Dawn Falcon
>
>
> ___
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>
>
>   
Why?  We can change no problem.  There's no content on it yet.

Nick has said that whatever we choose has to use MySQL on the back end.

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Trent Shipley]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:

> Nick Arnett wrote:
>   
>> Seriously, though, the wiki gives everybody lotsa power...
>> I'm not familiar enough with Media Wiki to see (a) what
>> administrators might do via the web interface and
>> (b) exactly how to create 'em.  It's a php associative
>> array, the docs tell me. 
>>
>> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going. 
>>
>> Any other experience wiki-ers here? 
>>
>> 
> The whole point of evil wiki admins is to punish and coerce.
> Unfortunately, it's a necessary job.
>
> But I suggest to keep it simple.
>
> There are _many_ wikis in the Web, another SF (Fantasy too?)
> wiki would die of starvation
>   
I am just not finding a big sci-fi wiki out there already fulfilling my
vision.  There are big *literature* wiki's out there, so one option
might be to have sci-fi be a little fish in a much larger pond.  I am
really interested in a Brin-->sci-fi-->imaginaria evolution.

> I think a Brin wiki would be the best - but probably you should
> ask Him about what stuff could go there. And the evil wiki admins
> would have to keep a keen eye on copyright violations - wiki users
> have a nasty tendency to copy-and-paste without regard for the
> legitimacy of the material.
>
> Also, it should be acurately determined how deep we could go.
>
> For example, should we have a detailed description of every event
> and character? It could spur interest in buying books, but it could
> also feed unscrupulous Hollywood scriptwriters to steal and distort
> Brin's ideas into new awful movies.
>   
The trivia is there in the sources.  The itch that got this discussion
going was the Wikipedia content NAZI's wanting to get rid of our most
excellent uplift universe trivia.  Trivia down to the most trivial level
is in.  What good is Uplift, or Star Trek, or Zina, or Buffy without trivia!


> How much fanfic should be admitted? Logical inferences based
> on the books are ok? Natural extrapolations are ok? Or should we
> stick to canonical (and deutero-canonical, like Kevin Costner's
> movie) material?
>
> Alberto Monteiro
>   

NO fanfic (unless we do the Brin-and-only-Brin option). Fanfic is as bad
as outright copying material.  It opens a whole can of bad IP juju.  (If
we do fan fiction all of it goes in.  You want to encourage creativity. 
A wiki may not be the best way to produce fan fiction, like if an editor
hates your dark, depressing ending or interpretation...)

Seriously, I have done the Uplift fan fiction thing. I did it a lot.  I
had fun with it.  Now I am burned out.  I'm just not too interested in
that project.

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Trent Shipley]

I was expecting to find a dominant science fiction wiki, and I am
surprised that it doesn't show up on the first page or two of Google. 
There do seem to be franchise based silos that are effective, Star Wars
and Star Trek of course, but anything that's been on TV is a candidate.


http://scifi.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
May be what I want, but it is hard to tell.  It only has about 1300
articles and the last entry was made 15 December 2009, so it's not very
active.  I think that if Nick is as good at social networking as he says
he is that we can do better.

http://wiki.feministsf.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
Looks like an excellent site.  It has over 4000 articles with entries as
recently as 2009-12-28 and 2009-12-29.  I get the impression it is a bit
high-brow for a site dedicated to such low literature as SciFi.

I still think there is room for one-stop shopping for science fiction
and imaginaria synopses, reviews, literary criticism, and TRIVIA. 



Wayne Eddy wrote:

> I've done a fair bit of wiki work over the last couple of years, using
> both Wikimedia & Wikidot wikis.
>
> e.g. http://www.lgam.info
>
> Building up a wiki from scratch is a big job, and I think it would be
> a good idea to do a bit of research into existing science fiction
> related wikis to see if there are any existing ones that might be
> worth contributing to.
>
> I did a quick search and found the following, but I am sure there are
> 100's of others out there.
>
> http://www.modernscifi.com/tiki-index.php
> http://www.galaxiki.org/wiki/
> http://scifi.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Apart from the wikis that I have created personally, I think the most
> interesting future related one that I have stumbled across so far is
> the accelerating future wiki.  
>
> http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne Eddy
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Nick Arnett  > wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Trent Shipley  > wrote:
>
> Nick Arnett wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM,  
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > I did not send the original to the list. Feel free to
> forward this
> > to the list.
> >
> > I'm partial to MediaWiki.
> >
> >
> > I have installed MediaWiki here:
> >
> > http://www.nickarnett.net/sfwiki/
> >
> > We can create a domain name for it and point it there when
> we're ready
> > to go public with it.
> >
> > I guess there's no real need for admins...
>
> POWER,  I have been denied privilege and POWER!! Oh, the agony.
>
>
> What wouldja like?  ;-)
>
> Seriously, though, the wiki gives everybody lotsa power... I'm not
> familiar enough with Media Wiki to see (a) what administrators
> might do via the web interface and (b) exactly how to create 'em. 
> It's a php associative array, the docs tell me.
>
> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going.
>
> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
>
> Nick
>
>
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>
>
>
> 
>
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>
>   


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Trent Shipley]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:

> David Hobby wrote:
>   
>> So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
>> of time proposing articles for deletion.  
>>
>> 
> It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
> user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
> used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
> deletion _its_ articles!).
>
> In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
> repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
> banned until after 2012-12-21.
>
>   
>> If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
>> best defense is references to them in books not written
>> by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?
>>
>> 
> Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
> Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
> who is _not_ by Him.
>
> (and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)
>
> Alberto Monteiro
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>   
All of which does not change the fact that Abductive is correct.  The
articles previously mentioned in this family of threads simply do not
meet en-Wikipedia's notablity guidelines.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29

gives:

*This page in a nutshell:* A book is generally notable if it verifiably
 meets through reliable
sources , *one*
or more of the following criteria:

   1. The book has been the subject^[1]
  

  of multiple, non-trivial^[2]
  

  published works whose sources are independent of the book
  itself,^[3]
  

  with at least some of these works serving a general audience. This
  includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles,
  other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these
  works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the
  article to grow past a simple plot summary
  .
  * The immediately preceding criterion excludes media re-prints
of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where
the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested
parties advertise or speak about the book.^[4]



   2. The book has won a major literary award
  .
   3. The book has been considered by reliable sources to have made a
  significant contribution to a notable motion picture, or other art
  form, or event or political or religious movement.
   4. The book is the subject of instruction at multiple grade schools,
  high schools, universities /or/ post-graduate programs in any
  particular country.^[5]
  


   5. The book's author is so historically significant that any of his
  or her written works may be considered notable.^[6]
  





And


Derivative articles

Shortcut :
WP:BKD 

It is a general consensus on Wikipedia that articles should not be split
and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each
split normally lowering the level of notability. What this means is that
while a book may be notable, it is not normally advisable to have a
separate article on a character or thing from the book, and it is often
the case that despite the book being manifestly notable, a derivative
article from it is not. Exceptions do, of course, exist—especially in
the case of very famous books. For example few would argue that Charles
Dickens ' /A Christmas
Carol / does not warrant
a 'subarticle' on its protagonist, Ebenezer Scrooge
.

In some situations, where the book itself does not fit the established
criteria for notability, or if the book is notable but the author has an
article in Wikipedia, it may be better to feature material about the
book in the author's article, rather than creating a separate article
for that book.





So there would seem to be a hierarchy acceptable to en-Wikipedia's
content guidelines.


Article/biography on David Brin prefe

Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Matt Grimaldi wrote:
>
 It must be a Brin-hater.
>>> 
>>> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
>>> 
>> Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
>> we could do.
> 
> Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?
> 
Yes - but it's easier to get the picture from the name than the
name from the picture, unless you have Shinigami eyes.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Matt Grimaldi]

Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?

-- Matt



- Original Message 
From: Alberto Monteiro 
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion 
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 8:08:00 AM
Subject: RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


Julia wrote:
>
>> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
>>  Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
> 
>> It must be a Brin-hater.
> 
> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
> 
Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
we could do.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

David Hobby wrote:
> 
> So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
> of time proposing articles for deletion.  
>
It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
deletion _its_ articles!).

In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
banned until after 2012-12-21.

> If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
> best defense is references to them in books not written
> by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?
> 
Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
who is _not_ by Him.

(and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[David Hobby]

...
It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.



The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive


So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
of time proposing articles for deletion.  All except
Streaker now just have "notability" tags, which seem
mild enough to leave.  But it could well be the first
step in a campaign.  He seems to not have status much
higher than the rest of us editors, so the articles won't
be deleted without due process.

If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
best defense is references to them in books not written
by David Brin.  Does anybody know any?

---David

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Andrew Crystall]

On 29 Dec 2009 at 10:08, Nick Arnett wrote:

> Google's advertising is targeted by subject.  Their bots look at the page
> and try to show ads that are relevant.

Heh.

Seriously, once it's up and running and has visitors? Use Project 
Wonderful. It's  google adsense.

AndrewC

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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Nick Arnett]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Dave Land  wrote:

>
> The reason that you are offered that opportunity on a SciFi Wiki (or any
> other place where Viagra is nowhere even close to the topic of the site) is
> that web sites are desperate to monetize themselves. I hate web advertising
> mainly because it _could_ be targeted, but it isn't.


Google's advertising is targeted by subject.  Their bots look at the page
and try to show ads that are relevant.

Of course, this fails badly sometimes.  I've had some Google ads on the
Brin-L archive pages, which kept including ads for Piper airplanes.  This
apparently is because the archiving software is called "Pipermail."  Google
is "smart" enough to split the word apart and dumb enough to miss the
context completely.

Nick
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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Dave Land]

On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Bruce Bostwick wrote:


On Dec 29, 2009, at 5:36 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:


For example, why on Hell should a site or list dedicated to,
say, Linux, include advertisings about Viagra?


Because someone, somewhere, has decided that we all need to see ads  
for Viagra every hour of the day, no matter where we are, and no  
matter how relevant they are to what we're doing at the moment.  I  
suspect that that person works for the ad agency that's promoting  
Viagra.


(And apparently they're determined enough to get those ads in front  
of us that they don't mind people going to what would be heroic  
lengths to defeat even the strongest email spam filters to get them  
into our email inboxes, as well.)


Apparently, it takes about 12 million spam emails to generate one  
response. That's why you are offered the opportunity to purchase  
Viagra (or Cialis or Extenze or...) a couple of hundred times a day.


The reason that you are offered that opportunity on a SciFi Wiki (or  
any other place where Viagra is nowhere even close to the topic of the  
site) is that web sites are desperate to monetize themselves. I hate  
web advertising mainly because it _could_ be targeted, but it isn't.


But also because it is intentionally disruptive.

Dave


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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Bruce Bostwick]

On Dec 29, 2009, at 5:36 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:


For example, why on Hell should a site or list dedicated to,
say, Linux, include advertisings about Viagra?


Because someone, somewhere, has decided that we all need to see ads  
for Viagra every hour of the day, no matter where we are, and no  
matter how relevant they are to what we're doing at the moment.  I  
suspect that that person works for the ad agency that's promoting  
Viagra.


(And apparently they're determined enough to get those ads in front of  
us that they don't mind people going to what would be heroic lengths  
to defeat even the strongest email spam filters to get them into our  
email inboxes, as well.)


"We're going to shape the future of jurisprudence, the laws that  
sustain our whole society.  Or shove somebody in there to strike down  
those God-awful excuses for laws the Republicans are passing." -- Toby  
Ziegler




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RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Julia wrote:
>
>> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
>>  Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
> 
>> It must be a Brin-hater.
> 
> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
> 
Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
we could do.

Alberto Monteiro


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RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Julia]

 

-Original Message-
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:35 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin 
> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
> 
The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

Alberto Monteiro




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Any clue to the identity of the troll?

Julia


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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Wayne Eddy]

I've done a fair bit of wiki work over the last couple of years, using both
Wikimedia & Wikidot wikis.

e.g. http://www.lgam.info

Building up a wiki from scratch is a big job, and I think it would be a good
idea to do a bit of research into existing science fiction related wikis to
see if there are any existing ones that might be worth contributing to.

I did a quick search and found the following, but I am sure there are 100's
of others out there.

http://www.modernscifi.com/tiki-index.php
http://www.galaxiki.org/wiki/
http://scifi.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Apart from the wikis that I have created personally, I think the most
interesting future related one that I have stumbled across so far is the
accelerating future wiki.

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/wiki/Main_Page

Regards,

Wayne Eddy

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Nick Arnett  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Trent Shipley  wrote:
>
>> Nick Arnett wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM, > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > I did not send the original to the list. Feel free to forward this
>> > to the list.
>> >
>> > I'm partial to MediaWiki.
>> >
>> >
>> > I have installed MediaWiki here:
>> >
>> > http://www.nickarnett.net/sfwiki/
>> >
>> > We can create a domain name for it and point it there when we're ready
>> > to go public with it.
>> >
>> > I guess there's no real need for admins...
>>
>> POWER,  I have been denied privilege and POWER!! Oh, the agony.
>>
>
> What wouldja like?  ;-)
>
> Seriously, though, the wiki gives everybody lotsa power... I'm not familiar
> enough with Media Wiki to see (a) what administrators might do via the web
> interface and (b) exactly how to create 'em.  It's a php associative array,
> the docs tell me.
>
> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going.
>
> Any other experience wiki-ers here?
>
> Nick
>
>
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The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
> 
The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

It must be a Brin-hater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

Alberto Monteiro




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The wikipedia trolls may win again (II) :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.

I will save the articles in txt files; when the Brin wiki is set up 
I will recreate them. It's a pity that the history will be
lost - I created those two articles, but they have expanded beyond
what I wrote.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Alberto Monteiro]

Nick Arnett wrote:
> 
> For now, it's just going to be my problem to deal with the
> finances.  I say problem because I'm sure cash flow will be
> negative for a while, of course.  But it is appropriate to
> resolve those things early on if there's chance it will actually
> throw off cash.  If not, shouting and tears inevitably follow. 
>
One thing that amazes me is how stupid internet advertising is.

For example, why on Hell should a site or list dedicated to,
say, Linux, include advertisings about Viagra?

A Brin wiki could easily include non-invasive ads that would
be totally apropos. The Alvin page would exhibit a random ad
that would eventually offer Brightness Reef, Infinity's Shore
or Heaven's Reach.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Andrew Crystall]

On 28 Dec 2009 at 17:16, Nick Arnett wrote:

> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going.
> 
> Any other experience wiki-ers here?

Hi. I absolutely detest MediaWiki, though, so I won't be much use for 
this. (Fos/T Wiki, now...)

AndrewC
Dawn Falcon


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Re: SciFi and Fantasy(?) Wiki

[Alberto Monteiro]

Nick Arnett wrote:
> 
> Seriously, though, the wiki gives everybody lotsa power...
> I'm not familiar enough with Media Wiki to see (a) what
> administrators might do via the web interface and
> (b) exactly how to create 'em.  It's a php associative
> array, the docs tell me. 
> 
> I'm happy to keep the discussion here for now, to get it going. 
> 
> Any other experience wiki-ers here? 
>
The whole point of evil wiki admins is to punish and coerce.
Unfortunately, it's a necessary job.

But I suggest to keep it simple.

There are _many_ wikis in the Web, another SF (Fantasy too?)
wiki would die of starvation.

I think a Brin wiki would be the best - but probably you should
ask Him about what stuff could go there. And the evil wiki admins
would have to keep a keen eye on copyright violations - wiki users
have a nasty tendency to copy-and-paste without regard for the
legitimacy of the material.

Also, it should be acurately determined how deep we could go.

For example, should we have a detailed description of every event
and character? It could spur interest in buying books, but it could
also feed unscrupulous Hollywood scriptwriters to steal and distort
Brin's ideas into new awful movies.

How much fanfic should be admitted? Logical inferences based
on the books are ok? Natural extrapolations are ok? Or should we
stick to canonical (and deutero-canonical, like Kevin Costner's
movie) material?

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/

[Alberto Monteiro]

Trent Shipley wrote:
>
> David Brin is an important science fiction author so he merits 
> mention in Wikipedia. The Jijo trilogy merits mention. Each book in 
> the trilogy merits an article. However, each book is based on an 
> ensemble cast. Alvin is an ensemble character in trilogy by an 
> author of moderate importance in a work of moderate importance. Thus,
>  Alvin is too trivial to be in Wikipedia.
> 
> If he were a Shakespeare character, no matter how minor, he would be 
> in Wikipedia, because Shakespeare is a very important author. If he 
> were a minor Naruto character he might rate an article because 
> Naruto is very popular. But as it is, Alvin doesn't meet the 
> criteria for important enough.
>
This is not what the owner of that thing said.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_is_not_paper

  "There is no reason why there shouldn't be a page for every
   Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode,
   all neatly cross-linked and introduced by a shorter central
   page. Every episode name in the list could link to a separate
   page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and
   trivia. Each of the 100+ poker games can have its own page
   with rules, history, and strategy. Jimbo Wales has agreed:
   Hard disks are cheap."

So, it's just trolls that want to remove fictional character pages;
after all, Dei Lucrii, Time Regained (film), Jia Xiaozhong,
Montesquieu-Guittaut, Märkische Schweiz (Amt), Homage for Satan,
and Pudian Road (Shanghai Metro) could be more important than Alvin?

Alberto Monteiro


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