On 30/08/2008 Charlie Bell wrote:
...there are some people that believe human life
starts at birth. There are a few (a very few) that believe it starts
when humans attain sapience (Peter Singer is one). There are many that
think it starts at conception. Most think somewhere between conception
and birth, round about when the foetus has a good chance of surviving
independently of the placenta.
Since you mention Peter Singer, he makes an interesting point. The people who
are most concerned about the life of a foetus, which has little if any
sentience, are generally unconcerned about the life of other creatures with
much greater degrees of sentience. Chimpanzees and gorillas are at least the
intellectual equals of small children or seriously disabled humans, and yet
somehow that counts for nothing in most people's moral equation. (A lot of
people are sentimental about animals, but when push comes to shove, very few
people really stand behind the idea that animals have rights). Koko the
gorilla reputedly scores between 70 and 90 on human IQ tests (which puts her
dangerously close to our President) and even if that is an exaggerated claim,
she is obviously a sensitive creature, capable of loving and mourning for lost
loved ones (including her pet cat and her long time mate). I had the
opportunity to meet Washoe the Chimpanzee on a tour of the Chimpanzee Human Comm
unication Institue before her death this past year, and looking into her face
left me no doubt that she was a person, and one of great dignity and wisdom as
well. Even Border Collies have been shown to have linguistic understanding
equal to that of young children, and probably much more independent judgement.
Without falling back on religion and mystical concepts souls I don't see how
there is any rational definition of person that includes human beings and
doesn't include a lot of non-human animals as well. And of course, all these
defenses of human dignity by religious believers are pretty recent
historically -- it wasn't all that long ago that the churches were finding ways
to justify the extermination of native peoples and slavery by arguing about
whether different groups of people had souls. Abraham Lincoln countered those
kinds of arguments by noting, early in his career, that he wasn't sure if black
were people were the intellectual equals of whites or not,
but that it didn't have any effect on his view of slavery, because it was
wrong and cruel either way. Jeremy Bentham put it like this: The question is
not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but rather, Can they suffer?
When pro-life advocates start defending all life I'll take them seriously.
Olin
- Original Message -
From: Charlie Bellmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Sarah Palin
On 31/08/2008, at 8:48 AM, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:
I don't. When atheist-based ideology condemns every baby with
Down Syndrome to be search and destroyed, it's a message
that people with Down Syndrome should also be hunted and
gassed.
There is no atheist-based ideology, and what you've written here is
frankly offensive crap. Atheism means one thing and one thing only -
that I don't believe in god. I don't believe in the tooth fairy or
Santa Claus either, and there's no aSantaist ideology. Morals and
ethics may have much grounding in religion, but they're not
exclusively the preserve of religion (why else are the least religious
western democracies the safest, healthiest and best educated?). What
you've done here is confused atheist with arsehole.
As to the second part: there are some people that believe human life
starts at birth. There are a few (a very few) that believe it starts
when humans attain sapience (Peter Singer is one). There are many that
think it starts at conception. Most think somewhere between conception
and birth, round about when the foetus has a good chance of surviving
independently of the placenta. Framing the very hard choice to
terminate a Down's pregnancy detected during the first trimester of
pregnancy as equivalent to hunting and gassing people with Down's is
sickening. It's not the same thing, neither is it a slippery slope.
If you're trolling back at Will, please stop it. One like him on this
list is enough. If you're genuinely making this comparison and
skirting Godwin in the process, then please take another look at what
you've written and how dangerous it is to equate atheism with
Lysenkoism and Nazism. The non-religious are one of the last
outgroups, and are increasingly overtly discriminated against, and
framing things the way you have is actually a step in the direction
you're warning against.
Charlie.
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