Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Svante Signell, le sam. 06 mai 2023 10:59:06 +0200, a ecrit: > On Wed, 2023-05-03 at 19:56 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Samuel Thibault, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:09:25 +0200, a ecrit: > > > Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: > > > > > To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part > > > > > for a > > > > > long time already. I can't do everything alone. > > > > > > > > I appreciate that! -- and I'm sure everyone else does. Are there any > > > > other tasks that are not fun to you that we could help you with? > > > > > > E.g. fixing the remaining git and vim testsuite bugs. > > > > And more generally fix the build of the top of > > > > https://people.debian.org/~sthibault/graph-total-top.txt > > > > Some of these are mostly hopeless (java), others should really be fixed > > (perl, help2man, mesa, pam, util-linux, etc.). I'm currently hitting the > > pam issue to be able to bootstrap hurd-amd64, for instance. > > Did you see the Debian pam Bug#1029097? No, it didn't reach the debian-hurd list. X-Debbugs-CC: needs to be in the mail headers, not in the bts pseudo-headers. Samuel
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
On Wed, 2023-05-03 at 19:56 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Samuel Thibault, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:09:25 +0200, a ecrit: > > Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: > > > > To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part for a > > > > long time already. I can't do everything alone. > > > > > > I appreciate that! -- and I'm sure everyone else does. Are there any > > > other tasks that are not fun to you that we could help you with? > > > > E.g. fixing the remaining git and vim testsuite bugs. > > And more generally fix the build of the top of > > https://people.debian.org/~sthibault/graph-total-top.txt > > Some of these are mostly hopeless (java), others should really be fixed > (perl, help2man, mesa, pam, util-linux, etc.). I'm currently hitting the > pam issue to be able to bootstrap hurd-amd64, for instance. Did you see the Debian pam Bug#1029097?
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
May 3, 2023 1:15 PM, "Samuel Thibault" wrote: > Samuel Thibault, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:09:25 +0200, a ecrit: > >> Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: >> (By the way, do you happen to know any news about what came out of >> that? Was there a specific person selected to work on the project? Is >> there a blog I could follow?) >> >> We are waiting for the Google ranking. We will probably be able to get a >> very capable student. > > We have just received the notification from Google, we got the slot for > Vedant Tewari! Congrats Vedant! Good luck!
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Samuel Thibault, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:09:25 +0200, a ecrit: > Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: > > (By the way, do you happen to know any news about what came out of > > that? Was there a specific person selected to work on the project? Is > > there a blog I could follow?) > > We are waiting for the Google ranking. We will probably be able to get a > very capable student. We have just received the notification from Google, we got the slot for Vedant Tewari! Samuel
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Samuel Thibault, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:09:25 +0200, a ecrit: > Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: > > > To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part for a > > > long time already. I can't do everything alone. > > > > I appreciate that! -- and I'm sure everyone else does. Are there any > > other tasks that are not fun to you that we could help you with? > > E.g. fixing the remaining git and vim testsuite bugs. And more generally fix the build of the top of https://people.debian.org/~sthibault/graph-total-top.txt Some of these are mostly hopeless (java), others should really be fixed (perl, help2man, mesa, pam, util-linux, etc.). I'm currently hitting the pam issue to be able to bootstrap hurd-amd64, for instance. Samuel
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Sergey Bugaev, le mer. 03 mai 2023 13:26:56 +0300, a ecrit: > > For instance, we *do* need rust > > implemented, otherwise we'll lose libgtk support, and probably soon > > enough also libxml2 and whatnot re-implemented in rust. > > If that's your best example of a task that is not fun... :) Seeing the result is fun, yes, but the task of reviewing all the gory details of the libc ABI to make sure it's properly declared to rust, is not really much fun. Hopefully codegen will make it not too tedious. > (By the way, do you happen to know any news about what came out of > that? Was there a specific person selected to work on the project? Is > there a blog I could follow?) We are waiting for the Google ranking. We will probably be able to get a very capable student. > > To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part for a > > long time already. I can't do everything alone. > > I appreciate that! -- and I'm sure everyone else does. Are there any > other tasks that are not fun to you that we could help you with? E.g. fixing the remaining git and vim testsuite bugs. Also, actually testing lwip with application testsuites to make sure it's at least on par with what we have with pfinet, and integrate that in the Debian packaging. Also, reduce the memory overhead of rumpdisk, for now it's really very large. > "the Hurd kernel is a steaming pile of crap that doesn’t function > well, or sometimes at all, after more than 30 years of off-and-on work > on it." Yes, it's interesting to see how opinions on the Hurd are basically never rational. > > so the small fun parts are done. I have put some smallish items on > > > > https://darnassus.sceen.net/~hurd-web/contributing/#index1h2 > > > > but that doesn't seem to be picked up, mostly. > > Well, I've done the "Fix our symlink translator" one and got exactly > zero feedback on the patch in almost three years (other than "Thanks > for working on this" from Josua). > > I understand that you don't have time for it, but we're not going to > get anywhere this way. Maybe someone else could review and test out > the patch, if you cannot? I have been waiting for years for that. I thought that would have been obvious, but apparently not. > Maybe we could have monthly update posts on some official blog (here > [1]?), where everyone would be welcome to write a few words (or more) > on what they've been working on that month. Then we would share them > on social media etc. Well, yes, of course? Again, it seemed very obvious to me that such initiative would be more than welcome. Apparently not. Samuel
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:46 AM Almudena Garcia wrote: > Hi: Hi Almu! > I have this video that i recorded last year. But some days ago, i noticed > that desktop environment is buggy again, and i don't found applications like > midori, arora or vlc > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFPw8WCe7Ew > > I have some posts in my blogs (in spanish), showing my tests both in real > hardware and virtualbox > https://www.patreon.com/posts/jugando-en-gnu-54904996 > https://www.patreon.com/posts/probando-en-gnu-54794500 > > And I have my Hurd SMP blog (in spanish again) where I post the progress of > this project (pending of update) > https://hurdsmp.wordpress.com/ > > When the desktop environment support will be fixed i can to record some > videos again > > I wait you like this material Great! (And subscribed to the channel over on YouTube :) But I was thinking more in the style of [0] and [1], but somewhat more, uh, informed, about both the Hurd gotchas to avoid and the interesting/new things to explore / show off. [0] https://youtu.be/aDAIPGFquaE [1] https://youtu.be/w3NfOeecMkI Probably with some less focus on the desktop (because it won't look any different from [GNU/] Linux (or other Unixes) and it runs better on Linux... -- but it still of course makes sense to show that it does run), and some more focus on the Hurd specifics -- translators, servers, addauth, msgport, remap, subhurds, etc. Sergey
Re: Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Hello, I got a little bit overly emotional and personal over there yesterday, sorry about that. On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 11:18 PM Samuel Thibault wrote: > But at some point the less funny pieces also need to be done, otherwise > the system becomes irrelevant. Yes; but I can't really think of anything that would not be fun? Doesn't mean that it'd all be fun *to me*, or that I'm the best person to do everything, but still. I'm sure drivers are fun to write and get working; I'm just not the best man for that particular job. > For instance, we *do* need rust > implemented, otherwise we'll lose libgtk support, and probably soon > enough also libxml2 and whatnot re-implemented in rust. If that's your best example of a task that is not fun... :) Rust is awesome, I love Rust, and surely getting Rust (libstd) to work would be *super* interesting and fun and not even hard. I did attempt it myself in the past, but did not get very far (because I haven't allocated enough time to it). I'd do it myself now if it wasn't a GSoC assignment for someone else to work on, so I don't want to get in the way. Maybe this goes to show that the same task may be fun or not depending on whom you ask. Again, look at how many people have expressed interest in working on Rust + Hurd! (By the way, do you happen to know any news about what came out of that? Was there a specific person selected to work on the project? Is there a blog I could follow?) > To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part for a > long time already. I can't do everything alone. I appreciate that! -- and I'm sure everyone else does. Are there any other tasks that are not fun to you that we could help you with? > I'm *not* meaning to write USB drivers, but to fix building rump to use > its USB drivers. The PCI/IRQ/etc. part is already working for AHCI, the > USB stack is probably not that much more work, and not technical work. I see, well that sounds a lot more realistic then. Maybe I'll look into it when I'm done with the other things. > And that's actually part of the problem: it just works *a lot* nowadays, Yes! And that's an awesome achievement! And it's one that is not publicly known. People really do think that the Hurd is non-functional -- and badly designed. Here, let me quote someone (content warning: harsh words): "the Hurd kernel is a steaming pile of crap that doesn’t function well, or sometimes at all, after more than 30 years of off-and-on work on it." And it doesn't help that Linus Torvalds keeps talking negatively about the Hurd, from his famous "just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won’t end up like the Hurd people", and as recently as this year, "Linux is not the heap of bad ideas that is Hurd". That of course gets amplified and ingrained in the public opinion about the Hurd. People on the Fediverse were genuinely surprised when I told them the Hurd does in fact work, and that the post was sent from a Hurd system. The Hurd can run GUI and GTK apps -- who could have thought, right? > so the small fun parts are done. I have put some smallish items on > > https://darnassus.sceen.net/~hurd-web/contributing/#index1h2 > > but that doesn't seem to be picked up, mostly. Well, I've done the "Fix our symlink translator" one and got exactly zero feedback on the patch in almost three years (other than "Thanks for working on this" from Josua). I understand that you don't have time for it, but we're not going to get anywhere this way. Maybe someone else could review and test out the patch, if you cannot? Maybe you could just ship the patch in Debian (which, even if the patch is very broken, which it's not, should not break much since regular symlinks don't actually use /hurd/symlink), and then everyone would be able to test it with ease. > I won't continue repeating myself, see my 4-year-old-already talk at > FOSDEM: > > https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_the_hurd/ Yes, I've seen that. > > There's not enough publicity that the Hurd still exists, is developed, > > and actually works quite well. People think that it is an abandoned, > > failed project. > > Yes. It's yet another "it's a matter of"... reviving the quarters of the > Hurd. That is missing somebody taking up the task. > > (And no, I cannot do that. Basically, anything that is "Samuel could do > XXX" won't work: I'm already completely overloaded, I just cannot do > more, and especially not publicity or community maintenance, I'm just > completely no good at that). Again, please do know that I appreciate everything that you do. Without your efforts, the Hurd would really be a dead and abandoned project. But I'm also not at all saying that *you* have to do the publicity work. I'm rather raising the question of what could be done here. I'm doing my small part by posting about the Hurd (way too often) over on Mastodon (though it feels wrong and awkward at times because it's as if I'm stealing all the fame and praise for myself). I don't
Prospectives (Was: hurd: Add expected abilist files for x86_64)
Sergey Bugaev, le mar. 02 mai 2023 22:58:24 +0300, a ecrit: > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 10:06 PM Samuel Thibault > wrote: > > > > Sergey Bugaev, le mar. 02 mai 2023 21:59:40 +0300, a ecrit: > > > I don't see how network/disk/USB are relevant > > > > What I mean is that we don't have much workforce. If we keep > > reimplementing things that already work fine enough, we'll not be making > > useful progress. > > That's true; but I might offer a different perspective here. In > SerenityOS, we have this principle (quoting from FAQ): > > > # Will SerenityOS support `$THING`? > > Maybe. Maybe not. There is no plan. > > # When will you implement `$THING`? > > Maybe someday. Maybe never. If you want to see something happen, you can do > > it yourself! > > There's no plan; everyone just hacks on whatever they feel like! The > end result is not that important, what's important is that we all have > fun. > > Same here: I haven't seen any roadmap for what the Hurd must achieve. Yep, sure! But at some point the less funny pieces also need to be done, otherwise the system becomes irrelevant. For instance, we *do* need rust implemented, otherwise we'll lose libgtk support, and probably soon enough also libxml2 and whatnot re-implemented in rust. To put another perspective: I have been doing that less funny part for a long time already. I can't do everything alone. > As you must be aware by now, I... know very little about systems > development, actually. That is absolutely no problem. > I know nothing about hardware. I can't write drivers. I barely know > what an IRQ is! So you can't really expect me to work on writing USB > drivers, if that's what you mean. I'm *not* meaning to write USB drivers, but to fix building rump to use its USB drivers. The PCI/IRQ/etc. part is already working for AHCI, the USB stack is probably not that much more work, and not technical work. > The point being, if you consider USB drivers a priority It's less a priority than e.g. 64bit support and SMP support, but people do have USB CD readers and USB sticks that we really want to support. > On another note: maybe it would be beneficial to get more people > interested / involved in the Hurd? Of course. > Again, look at how Serenity has grown from someone's personal project > our own [...] > our own [...] > our own [...] > [...] > I could go on and on. > We could be making this same kind of progress on the Hurd side! We have already done that actually. And that's actually part of the problem: it just works *a lot* nowadays, so the small fun parts are done. I have put some smallish items on https://darnassus.sceen.net/~hurd-web/contributing/#index1h2 but that doesn't seem to be picked up, mostly. Larger items are quickly very hairy, e.g. SMP support is still an upcoming very large beast. I won't continue repeating myself, see my 4-year-old-already talk at FOSDEM: https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_the_hurd/ > There's not enough publicity that the Hurd still exists, is developed, > and actually works quite well. People think that it is an abandoned, > failed project. Yes. It's yet another "it's a matter of"... reviving the quarters of the Hurd. That is missing somebody taking up the task. (And no, I cannot do that. Basically, anything that is "Samuel could do XXX" won't work: I'm already completely overloaded, I just cannot do more, and especially not publicity or community maintenance, I'm just completely no good at that). Samuel
