Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

[Alexander Kobel]

Mats Bengtsson wrote:
This is another incarnation of Issue 355, which in my opinion is a clear 
bug.


However, I'm not equally certain that the bar numbering always is done 
the way Paul proposes
and would have to look through my collection of scores to see what is 
the most common typesetting

practice.
Does anybody have authoritative information on how the bar numbering 
should be done with alternative

endings?

   /Mats


Well, it's certainly not authoritative, but since I admire the engraving 
practice in the Bärenreiter Urtext editions...
In several piano reductions, they use running measure numbers along the 
repeats, and depict both numbers, repeats in parentheses, like this:



  (18)
 |:---||||

6 (22)
||||||

12 (28) {1.  }
|||||---:|

33
{2. }
||||||

39
||||||


I think it's particularly useful to denote the measure number of the 
first repeated measure, even if it's in the middle of a line.

Note that the volta bars are counted, too.

This way, each point in time is uniquely identified, which should please 
both the programmer's and the conductor's view.


Of course, things get ugly if there is a part repeated more than once; I 
haven't spotted such a thing in my Bach scores from Bärenreiter. By the 
way, if the whole piece gets repeated, they don't print bar numbers for 
each stanza.
Also, one could argue to use the same numbering scheme for D.C., D.S. or 
Coda constructions - at least for D.C. and D.S. without jumps in the 
end, they don't do that. I don't have an example with a Coda.


On the other hand, more complicated constructions with = 3 repeats 
typically appear in more modern popular music, where AFAIK everybody 
tends to use the stanza numbers in the rehearsals.



Just my two pence...
Alexander


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Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

[Mats Bengtsson]

This is another incarnation of Issue 355, which in my opinion is a clear 
bug.


However, I'm not equally certain that the bar numbering always is done 
the way Paul proposes
and would have to look through my collection of scores to see what is 
the most common typesetting

practice.
Does anybody have authoritative information on how the bar numbering 
should be done with alternative

endings?

   /Mats

Bertalan Fodor wrote:

If I remember well it's already been discussed: it is not a bug but a matter of 
taste. I think most scores use this numbering, because this is the only way to 
refer to the 16th and 17th bar unambiguously. There must not be two 16th bars.

  Original message  
From: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca

Sent: 25 Jun 2009 13:31 -07:00
To: Paul de Bruin paul.de.br...@chello.nl
Cc:  bug-lilypond@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

Please create a minimal example of this; turn on bar numbers on
every bar, and then it should be showable in 4-5 bars.

Cheers,
- Graham

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:37:33PM +, Paul de Bruin wrote:
  

I'm not top posting.
  

%% BUG in Measure Numbering:
%% after a \repeat ending in two \alternative measures, these two measures 
should bear the same number;
%% however, Lilypond gives them subsequent numbers; the next section of the 
piece starts with a measure

%% number one too high.
%% Example, see line 50.

\version 2.10.10

\paper{ ragged-right=##t }

%  JSB Sonata BWV1017
%  Sonata Cembalo+Violino
%  1 Siciliano

\header {
title = SONATA IV
subtitle = BWV 1017
composer = Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
}

#(set-global-staff-size 19)

SicilianoS = \relative c' { 
  \key c \minor

  \time 6/8
  \clef treble

  \repeat volta 2 {  
  \stemUp

c16( es g c g es)   c( es g c g es)
c( f as c as f) c( e g bes as g)
  \stemDown
as( bes c f c as)   f( as c f c as)
f b d f d b f as c f c as
g b d f d c b d f as c, b
c es g c g es   c es g c g es
c f as c as f   d f g bes g es
c es f as g f   c es f as g f
bes, c d f es d as' g f es d c
bes d f bes f d es ges a c bes a
es f ges bes d, c   d f d bes f as

g bes es g es bes   g b d f d b
g b c es d cd fis g a bes g
fis g a es d c  bes c d a' fis g
c, es fis a fis es  c es c a c fis
}
  \alternative {
  { g16 d b g b d   g4. }   % THIS is bar 16;
  { g16 d b g b d   g4. }   % THIS is the alternative bar 16!
  }
  \pageBreak
  \repeat volta 2 {
  \stemDown
g,16( b d g d b)g( b d f d b)% THIS BAR should be numbered 17; 
however, it is 18!

g b c es c bc es g c g f
g bes! g e des cbes c e g f e
c e f as f c 
  \stemUp   f, g as c as f

des f bes des c bes
  \stemDown a c es ges f es
f a bes as ges fes ges f es des c

des c bes a bes e   f g as f c e
f as c as f e   f as f c as g
  \stemUp
f g as d as g
  \stemDown as bes c es d c
bes c d f d c   d es f as g f
g f es d c es   as g f es d c
g b d f d b g b d g d b
g b c es d cg' f es d c b
c e f as g fc' g es g c, es
as c, f as f d  b d f d b g
  \stemUp
es' c bes! as g f   es as g f es d
c f as c as f   d f g bes g es
  \stemDown
f as des f des bg as' g f es d
  \stemUp
c b a g f d'es, d es c' d, b'
c2.
  }
}

SicilianoB =  \relative c {
  \key c \minor
  \time 6/8
  \clef bass

  \repeat volta 2 { 
  \stemDown

c8( es g)bes,( es g)
  \stemUp
as,( c f)g,( bes e)
f,( as c)es,( as c)
d, f as  c, f as
  \stemDown
b f' as  g, d' g
c, es g  bes, es g
  \stemUp
as, c f  g, bes es
  \stemDown
f as c   es, as c
d, f as  es f g
  \stemUp
as, d f  a, c es
  \stemDown
bes es f bes, d as'
es g bes d, g b
c, es g  bes,! d g
  \stemUp
a, c es  g, bes es
fis, a c d, a' d
}
  \alternative {
  { g,4.~ g16 b d f d b }
  { g2. }
  }

  \repeat volta 2 {
  \stemUp
g8 b d \stemDown g b d
c es g   g, c es
e, g bes c, g' c
  \stemUp
f,, as c as c f
  \stemDown
bes, f' bes  c, es a
des, f bes   c, es as
bes, des g   c, f c'
  \stemUp
f,, as c as c f
  \stemDown
bes, d bes'  c, es as
d, f as  bes, d bes'
es, g c  f, as d




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--
=
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
School of Electrical Engineering
Royal Institute of Technology (KTH)
SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463 
   Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
Email: mats.bengts...@ee.kth.se
WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=



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Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

[Henning Plumeyer]

Am 26.06.2009, 10:43 Uhr, schrieb Mats Bengtsson  
mats.bengts...@ee.kth.se:


Does anybody have authoritative information on how the bar numbering  
should be done with alternative

endings?


From
Herbert Chlapik: Die Praxix des Notengraphikers,
1987, 2.Auflage 1991, Doblinger Wien - München, ISBN 3-9000-035-96-2

Page 77:
Wiederholungen bleiben bei der Taktzählung unberücksichtigt. In der Regel
sind auch die Takte einer prima volta (...) nicht mitzuzählen, doch wird
dies mitunter verlangt.

In English, sort of:
You don't count bars in repeats twice. Normally also the bars of a
prima volta are not to be counted, but sometimes it is asked for.

Any better Translation is welcome.

Henning




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Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

[Bertalan Fodor]

If I remember well it's already been discussed: it is not a bug but a matter of 
taste. I think most scores use this numbering, because this is the only way to 
refer to the 16th and 17th bar unambiguously. There must not be two 16th bars.

  Original message  
From: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca
Sent: 25 Jun 2009 13:31 -07:00
To: Paul de Bruin paul.de.br...@chello.nl
Cc:  bug-lilypond@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bug report: measure numbering after repeat with alternativeendings

Please create a minimal example of this; turn on bar numbers on
every bar, and then it should be showable in 4-5 bars.

Cheers,
- Graham

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:37:33PM +, Paul de Bruin wrote:
  I'm not top posting.
 
 %% BUG in Measure Numbering:
 %% after a \repeat ending in two \alternative measures, these two measures 
 should bear the same number;
 %% however, Lilypond gives them subsequent numbers; the next section of the 
 piece starts with a measure
 %% number one too high.
 %% Example, see line 50.
 
 \version 2.10.10
 
 \paper{ ragged-right=##t }
 
 %  JSB Sonata BWV1017
 %  Sonata Cembalo+Violino
 %  1 Siciliano
 
 \header {
 title = SONATA IV
 subtitle = BWV 1017
 composer = Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
 }
 
 #(set-global-staff-size 19)
 
 SicilianoS = \relative c' { 
   \key c \minor
   \time 6/8
   \clef treble
 
   \repeat volta 2 {  
   \stemUp
 c16( es g c g es)   c( es g c g es)
 c( f as c as f) c( e g bes as g)
   \stemDown
 as( bes c f c as)   f( as c f c as)
 f b d f d b f as c f c as
 g b d f d c b d f as c, b
 c es g c g es   c es g c g es
 c f as c as f   d f g bes g es
 c es f as g f   c es f as g f
 bes, c d f es d as' g f es d c
 bes d f bes f d es ges a c bes a
 es f ges bes d, c   d f d bes f as
 
 g bes es g es bes   g b d f d b
 g b c es d cd fis g a bes g
 fis g a es d c  bes c d a' fis g
 c, es fis a fis es  c es c a c fis
 }
   \alternative {
   { g16 d b g b d   g4. }   % THIS is bar 16;
   { g16 d b g b d   g4. }   % THIS is the alternative bar 16!
   }
   \pageBreak
   \repeat volta 2 {
   \stemDown
 g,16( b d g d b)g( b d f d b)% THIS BAR should be numbered 17; 
 however, it is 18!
 g b c es c bc es g c g f
 g bes! g e des cbes c e g f e
 c e f as f c 
   \stemUp   f, g as c as f
 des f bes des c bes
   \stemDown a c es ges f es
 f a bes as ges fes ges f es des c
 
 des c bes a bes e   f g as f c e
 f as c as f e   f as f c as g
   \stemUp
 f g as d as g
   \stemDown as bes c es d c
 bes c d f d c   d es f as g f
 g f es d c es   as g f es d c
 g b d f d b g b d g d b
 g b c es d cg' f es d c b
 c e f as g fc' g es g c, es
 as c, f as f d  b d f d b g
   \stemUp
 es' c bes! as g f   es as g f es d
 c f as c as f   d f g bes g es
   \stemDown
 f as des f des bg as' g f es d
   \stemUp
 c b a g f d'es, d es c' d, b'
 c2.
   }
 }
 
 SicilianoB =  \relative c {
   \key c \minor
   \time 6/8
   \clef bass
 
   \repeat volta 2 { 
   \stemDown
 c8( es g)bes,( es g)
   \stemUp
 as,( c f)g,( bes e)
 f,( as c)es,( as c)
 d, f as  c, f as
   \stemDown
 b f' as  g, d' g
 c, es g  bes, es g
   \stemUp
 as, c f  g, bes es
   \stemDown
 f as c   es, as c
 d, f as  es f g
   \stemUp
 as, d f  a, c es
   \stemDown
 bes es f bes, d as'
 es g bes d, g b
 c, es g  bes,! d g
   \stemUp
 a, c es  g, bes es
 fis, a c d, a' d
 }
   \alternative {
   { g,4.~ g16 b d f d b }
   { g2. }
   }
 
   \repeat volta 2 {
   \stemUp
 g8 b d \stemDown g b d
 c es g   g, c es
 e, g bes c, g' c
   \stemUp
 f,, as c as c f
   \stemDown
 bes, f' bes  c, es a
 des, f bes   c, es as
 bes, des g   c, f c'
   \stemUp
 f,, as c as c f
   \stemDown
 bes, d bes'  c, es as
 d, f as  bes, d bes'
 es, g c  f, as d


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