Re: Slurs between different voices

2015-10-13 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2015-10-11 9:07 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup :
>> Francisco Vila  writes:
>>
>>> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
 For a slur to start from the lowest note
  _(
>>>
>>> This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur
>>>
 What would you expect —as graphical output— for a slur starting on
 a note *in the middle of a chord*?  I cannot represent how it would
 look like and I cannot remember having seen such thing (in "normal
 chords I mean, this is different from a polyphonic passage)?
   ??
>>>
>>> See attached again. How do you do that?
>>
>> Well, we need to work on the attachment points, but with 2.19.29 this
>> might be done with
>
> Wow, the thread is from 2012 but this is immensely appreciated,
> thanks!

Well, documentation/changelog are still missing and I could not find any
good examples myself and just _knew_ this was discussed in the past.  So
after finding some relevant discussions, I decided to just answer them.
After all, if I can find those discussions through search engines,
anybody else can.

Still need to write up the respective entries, though.

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2015-10-13 Thread Francisco Vila
2015-10-11 9:07 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup :
> Francisco Vila  writes:
>
>> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
>>> For a slur to start from the lowest note
>>>  _(
>>
>> This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur
>>
>>> What would you expect —as graphical output— for a slur starting on
>>> a note *in the middle of a chord*?  I cannot represent how it would
>>> look like and I cannot remember having seen such thing (in "normal
>>> chords I mean, this is different from a polyphonic passage)?
>>>   ??
>>
>> See attached again. How do you do that?
>
> Well, we need to work on the attachment points, but with 2.19.29 this
> might be done with
>
>
>
> resulting in
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kastrup

Wow, the thread is from 2012 but this is immensely appreciated, thanks!

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www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2015-10-11 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
>> For a slur to start from the lowest note
>>  _(
>
> This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur
>
>> What would you expect —as graphical output— for a slur starting on
>> a note *in the middle of a chord*?  I cannot represent how it would
>> look like and I cannot remember having seen such thing (in "normal
>> chords I mean, this is different from a polyphonic passage)?
>>   ??
>
> See attached again. How do you do that?

Well, we need to work on the attachment points, but with 2.19.29 this
might be done with

{
  \partial 4
  \new Voice {
\voiceOne
<<
  { g''16( f'' e'' d'' }
  \new Voice { \voiceTwo g'4 }
>>
\oneVoice
16-!) d'' bis' c'')
  }
}
resulting in



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-18 Thread lilypond


Comment #11 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

And that would seem like it would be a major problem with moving the  
engraver to a higher context: then it has no way of establishing per-voice  
note relations.  It would appear that we first need to get the machinery  
into place that would make it possible to start slurs from _particular_  
note heads (rather than a whole chord/notecolumn).  Or we need a separate  
per-voice engraver that bothers about the slur end points separately.



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-18 Thread lilypond


Comment #10 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Quite interesting.  It would seem that the slur engraver is not quite  
prepared to work between voices: it does not try to keep track of which  
voice the start and end points are supposed to be in.  It is all one note  
column.



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #9 on issue 2411 by thomasmo...@gmail.com: Slurs between different  
voices

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

I hoped I could use it like:

\relative c'' {
\new Staff <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne e2 b2 \id "B" ) | }
\new Voice = "B" { \voiceTwo e,2( e,2 | }

}

But the output is not as expexted.
Well, I can make it work with some ugly trickery:

\relative c'' {
\new Staff <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne e2 s2*1/100 b2*99/100 \id "B" ) | }
\new Voice = "B" { \voiceTwo s2*1/100 e,2*99/100 ( e,2 | }

}

But, hmm ...

Attachments:
cross-staff-slur-test-01.ly  994 bytes
cross-staff-slur-test-01.png  3.3 KB


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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #8 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Here is a version that works with unnamed contexts as well.  The  
appoggiatura in multiple voices would still need fixing.


Attachments:
chopin.ly  810 bytes


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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #7 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

I discovered that unnamed contexts all are named "", so it is not yet  
useful as a feature (it would conflate slurs if you have several unnamed  
voices in a staff), but of course it would make for a reasonable snippet  
since one can explain and heed that restriction.



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #6 on issue 2411 by lemzw...@gmail.com: Slurs between different  
voices

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Very nice!

This should definitely be added to the LSR.


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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #5 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

It looks a bit more like the original when putting the notes inside of  
\relative f.


Attachments:
chopin.preview.png  2.8 KB


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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #4 on issue 2411 by d...@gnu.org: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Here is an example that allows slurs across voices inside of a staff,  
without (hopefully) affecting the normal per-Voice slurring.  It is not  
likely to work with appoggiatura out of the box.  And it does not address  
the first example which actually is more about being able to have _stems_  
across voices.


Attachments:
chopin.ly  623 bytes
chopin.preview.png  3.2 KB


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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #3 on issue 2411 by colingh...@gmail.com: Slurs between different  
voices

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

A couple of locations in the docs will be affected by this new feature.

First, we document here that cross-voice slurs are not supported.

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-curves#slurs

Also, there is a snippet showing how to create cross-voice slurs; it will  
be obviated by this new feature.


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/snippets/expressive-marks#creating-slurs-across-voices

Cheers,
Colin.



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #2 on issue 2411 by colingh...@gmail.com: Slurs between different  
voices

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Quoting from a later post by David Kastrup here:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2012-03/msg00690.html

there are some further syntax ideas:

Something like
\new Voice "x" { a( s4 }
\new Voice "y" { s4 g\ends "x") }
should be reasonably painless as an interface.



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Re: Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond


Comment #1 on issue 2411 by colingh...@gmail.com: Slurs between different  
voices

http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Quote from a bug-lilypond posting by Francisco with suggested syntax and  
appearance:


I attach two. Op25-n3 is more obvious. Its code (w/o slur) would be
something like

\version "2.15.30"
\new Staff \relative f {
  <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 c8. g16 f8. }
\new Voice { \voiceTwo f8[ f'] c,[ c'] }
  >>
}


A comfortable syntax would be \startSlur #name ... \endSlur #name like in

  <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 \startSlur #A  c8. }
\new Voice { \voiceTwo f,8[ f']  \endSlur #A }
  >>

A #name would be reusable if the slur has ended in a previous column.
Otherwise, new names everywhere would be needed.



Attachments:
pngExUs2m2J4D.png  2.7 KB
pngiRfmYU6sRY.png  1.6 KB


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Issue 2411 in lilypond: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread lilypond

Status: Accepted
Owner: 
Labels: Type-Enhancement Bounty

New issue 2411 by colingh...@gmail.com: Slurs between different voices
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2411

Requested by Francisco Vila:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-lilypond/2012-03/msg00660.html
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.bugs/34780

Hello,
I am typesetting some Chopin music. Music from this period uses slurs
between different voices all the time. I'd like to file an enhancement
request for this, if possible. Thanks.

There is a long discussion on the bug-lilypond thread with suggestions for  
syntax and appearance.



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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2012/3/16 Francisco Vila :
>> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
>>
>>> Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
>>> what you want, IIUC.
>>
>> Thank you! That's what I needed. I'm going to try the other example.
>> If that's so easily doable, please ignore my request.
>
> Well I'd change the title to "be able to start a slur from a specific
> note of a chord". This gives a warning and does not printa a slur. For
> cases like this, maybe still the named slurs have any sense.
>
> \version "2.15.30"
> \new Staff {
>   \new Voice \relative f {
> 16  d, b c )
>   }
> }

Ok, this is a different topic altogether.  Slurs currently are not
articulations but rather events.  That means that they have no
particular relation to any note in a given voice, but rather have a
starting time and an ending time.  Attaching them to some particular
notehead may need extensions in collision avoidance, and it needs more
of a framework than is already present.

In short, it would be out of the scope of a simple fix mainly tying
existing functionality together.  It might not require an insurmountable
amount of work, but it would definitely be an extension to be written in
C++.

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2012/3/17 David Kastrup :
>> Having multiple slurs in different voices will be hard.  But then the
>> slur engraver can already work with IDs: if they defaulted to the
>> current voice, that would be all that was needed to have both in-voice
>> as well as explicit cross-voice slurs.
>
> How much for that? Seriously.

If my thoughts about this are right, a documented solution with a nice
interface about €100, but I have a bit of a pile-up of things I need to
get done in the next 10 days.  Most of the work required for that has
already been done by Werner IIRC (the framework he made for slurs on
appoggiatura), so you might have success prodding him or forwarding the
essential parts of this exchange to him.

It is really a case of the functionality being 95% there (a good
solution should work for appogiatura in parallel voices even in a
setting allowing cross-voice slurs, which is the remaining 5% more or
less), just needing convenient wrapping and a nice user interface.
Something like
\new Voice "x" { a( s4 }
\new Voice "y" { s4 g\ends "x") }
should be reasonably painless as an interface.

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/17 David Kastrup :
> Having multiple slurs in different voices will be hard.  But then the
> slur engraver can already work with IDs: if they defaulted to the
> current voice, that would be all that was needed to have both in-voice
> as well as explicit cross-voice slurs.

How much for that? Seriously.

-- 
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www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-17 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
>
>> Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
>> what you want, IIUC.
>
> Thank you! That's what I needed. I'm going to try the other example.
> If that's so easily doable, please ignore my request.

Having multiple slurs in different voices will be hard.  But then the
slur engraver can already work with IDs: if they defaulted to the
current voice, that would be all that was needed to have both in-voice
as well as explicit cross-voice slurs.

-- 
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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
> On 16 March 2012 17:44, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>>
>> Thank you. I have tried the \hideNotes trick but does not work because
>> a beam is only printed it the initial note is not hidden.
>
> The code I would have used (maybe a bit tricky).

Thank you! You have been credited by this trick.

http://repo.or.cz/w/lilypond-ejercicios.git/commitdiff/03ec0209539776b1b45bd758a5d09b6b6c0480ef
-- 
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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Xavier Scheuer
On 16 March 2012 17:44, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>
> Thank you. I have tried the \hideNotes trick but does not work because
> a beam is only printed it the initial note is not hidden.

The code I would have used (maybe a bit tricky).

 Snippet

\version "2.15.30"

\new Staff {
  \time 2/4
  <<
\new Voice {
  \relative g'' {
\voiceOne
s4 g16( f e d |
\stemDown
\once \override Flag #'style = #'no-flag
c'16-|) s16*3
  }
}
\new Voice {
  \relative g' {
\stemDown
s4 g4 |
c16( d bis c)
  }
}
  >>
}

 End of snippet

Cheers,
Xavier

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
> On 16 March 2012 17:30, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>>
>> This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur
>
> Right, I did not consider this case.
> Nice request, then.
>
>> See attached again. How do you do that?
>
> Right now I would use two voices.  ;-P

Thank you. I have tried the \hideNotes trick but does not work because
a beam is only printed it the initial note is not hidden.

See

\version "2.15.30"
\new Staff {
  <<
\new Voice
\relative f {
  \voiceOne 16 % here \voiceTwo is even worse
}
\new Voice
\relative f {
  \voiceTwo %\hideNotes   %this removes beam!
  c''16[ ^(
  \unHideNotes d b c] )
}
  >>
}

%END

> But with your "be able to start a slur from a specific note of a chord"
> it would be easier, of course.


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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Xavier Scheuer
On 16 March 2012 17:30, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>
> This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur

Right, I did not consider this case.
Nice request, then.

> See attached again. How do you do that?

Right now I would use two voices.  ;-P
But with your "be able to start a slur from a specific note of a chord"
it would be easier, of course.

Cheers,
Xavier

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
> For a slur to start from the lowest note
>  _(

This is not an upright slur from the lowest note, this is a 'downside' slur

> What would you expect —as graphical output— for a slur starting on
> a note *in the middle of a chord*?  I cannot represent how it would
> look like and I cannot remember having seen such thing (in "normal
> chords I mean, this is different from a polyphonic passage)?
>   ??

See attached again. How do you do that?

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Xavier Scheuer
On 16 March 2012 16:51, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>
> Also, I had put my hopes in this variant:
>
> (snip)
>
> %END
>
> But not.

Might be considered as an issue.
But IMHO issue #1316 is by far more confusing for lambda users:
I mean, I replied to dozens of e-mail from users on the French (but
not only) user mailing list who did not understand why slurs,
hairpins, spanners, lyrics do not work when going from inside a
<< \\ >> construct to outside of it (and vice-versa).
And I think solving issue #1316 could "solve" your situation as well.
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1316

Cheers,
Xavier

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Colin Hall
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 04:47:01PM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote:
> 2012/3/16 Francisco Vila :
> > 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
> >
> >> Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
> >> what you want, IIUC.
> >
> > Thank you! That's what I needed. I'm going to try the other example.
> > If that's so easily doable, please ignore my request.
> 
> Well I'd change the title to "be able to start a slur from a specific
> note of a chord". This gives a warning and does not printa a slur. For
> cases like this, maybe still the named slurs have any sense.
> 
> \version "2.15.30"
> \new Staff {
>   \new Voice \relative f {
> 16  d, b c )
>   }
> }
> 

There is some documentation here:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/snippets/expressive-marks#creating-slurs-across-voices

Is that what you require?

Cheers,
Colin.

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Xavier Scheuer
On 16 March 2012 16:47, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>
> Well I'd change the title to "be able to start a slur from a specific
> note of a chord". This gives a warning and does not printa a slur. For
> cases like this, maybe still the named slurs have any sense.
>
> \version "2.15.30"
> \new Staff {
>  \new Voice \relative f {
>16  d, b c )
>  }
> }

To have a slur from the highest note of the chord use
  ^(

For a slur to start from the lowest note
  _(

What would you expect —as graphical output— for a slur starting on
a note *in the middle of a chord*?  I cannot represent how it would
look like and I cannot remember having seen such thing (in "normal
chords I mean, this is different from a polyphonic passage)?
   ??

Cheers,
Xavier

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Francisco Vila :
> Well I'd change the title to "be able to start a slur from a specific
> note of a chord". This gives a warning and does not printa a slur. For
> cases like this, maybe still the named slurs have any sense.
>
> \version "2.15.30"
> \new Staff {
>  \new Voice \relative f {
>    16  d, b c )
>  }
> }

Also, I had put my hopes in this variant:

\version "2.15.30"
\new Staff {
  \new Voice \relative f {
<<{c'''16 } \\ {c,16( } >>
d, b c )
  }
}

\layout {
  \context {
\Voice
\remove "Slur_engraver"
\remove "Slur_performer"
  }
  \context {
\Staff
\consists "Slur_engraver"
\consists "Slur_performer"
  }
}


%END

But not.
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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Francisco Vila :
> 2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :
>
>> Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
>> what you want, IIUC.
>
> Thank you! That's what I needed. I'm going to try the other example.
> If that's so easily doable, please ignore my request.

Well I'd change the title to "be able to start a slur from a specific
note of a chord". This gives a warning and does not printa a slur. For
cases like this, maybe still the named slurs have any sense.

\version "2.15.30"
\new Staff {
  \new Voice \relative f {
16  d, b c )
  }
}



-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Xavier Scheuer :

> Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
> what you want, IIUC.

Thank you! That's what I needed. I'm going to try the other example.
If that's so easily doable, please ignore my request.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Xavier Scheuer
On 16 March 2012 13:51, Francisco Vila  wrote:
>
> I attach two. Op25-n3 is more obvious. Its code (w/o slur) would be
> something like
>
> \version "2.15.30"
> \new Staff \relative f {
>  <<
>\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 c8. g16 f8. }
>\new Voice { \voiceTwo f8[ f'] c,[ c'] }
>  >>
> }
>
>
> A comfortable syntax would be \startSlur #name ... \endSlur #name like in
>
>  <<
>\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 \startSlur #A  c8. }
>\new Voice { \voiceTwo f,8[ f']  \endSlur #A }
>  >>
>
> A #name would be reusable if the slur has ended in a previous column.
> Otherwise, new names everywhere would be needed.

Hi Francisco,

Simply moving the "Slur_engraver" from Voice level to Staff level does
what you want, IIUC.

 Snippet

\version "2.15.33"

\score {
  \new Staff {
\time 2/4
<<
  \new Voice {
\relative c'' {
  \voiceOne
  d16( c8. a16( g8.
}
  }
  \new Voice {
\relative c'' {
  \voiceTwo
  g8 g') c,,8 c'8)
}
  }
>>
  }
  \layout {
\context {
  \Voice
  \remove "Slur_engraver"
  \remove "Slur_performer"
}
\context {
  \Staff
  \consists "Slur_engraver"
  \consists "Slur_performer"
}
  }
}

 End of snippet

Cheers,
Xavier

-- 
Xavier Scheuer 

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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
2012/3/16 Colin Hall :
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 11:06:50AM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am typesetting some Chopin music. Music from this period uses slurs
>> between different voices all the time. I'd like to file an enhancement
>> request for this, if possible. Thanks.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. I think it is pretty clear what you are 
> requesting, and I agree that it is not supported now.
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-curves#slurs
>
> To complete your feature request could you supply some suggestions for 
> suitable input syntax? A sample of lilypond source for some Chopin that is 
> complete except for the cross-voice slurs might be a good place to start.
>
> Also, so that this request can stand alone, could you send an image showing 
> an example of slurs between different voices?

I attach two. Op25-n3 is more obvious. Its code (w/o slur) would be
something like

\version "2.15.30"
\new Staff \relative f {
  <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 c8. g16 f8. }
\new Voice { \voiceTwo f8[ f'] c,[ c'] }
  >>
}


A comfortable syntax would be \startSlur #name ... \endSlur #name like in

  <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne d''16 \startSlur #A  c8. }
\new Voice { \voiceTwo f,8[ f']  \endSlur #A }
  >>

A #name would be reusable if the slur has ended in a previous column.
Otherwise, new names everywhere would be needed.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com
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Re: Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Colin Hall

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 11:06:50AM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote:
> Hello,
> I am typesetting some Chopin music. Music from this period uses slurs
> between different voices all the time. I'd like to file an enhancement
> request for this, if possible. Thanks.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think it is pretty clear what you are requesting, 
and I agree that it is not supported now.

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-curves#slurs

To complete your feature request could you supply some suggestions for suitable 
input syntax? A sample of lilypond source for some Chopin that is complete 
except for the cross-voice slurs might be a good place to start.

Also, so that this request can stand alone, could you send an image showing an 
example of slurs between different voices?

Cheers,
Colin.

-- 

Colin Hall

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Slurs between different voices

2012-03-16 Thread Francisco Vila
Hello,
I am typesetting some Chopin music. Music from this period uses slurs
between different voices all the time. I'd like to file an enhancement
request for this, if possible. Thanks.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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