[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Guillermo Durán Cristóbal]

Dear Glenn:
Certainly, you have some reason, but not all. The real existence of Andorra comes from 1248, Middle Age, for the dispute of a lands by Medieval little powers. As this conflict was never solved, there was the  " Treaty of Pareatges ", that was like a kind of Medieval Treaty, as the equivalent we usually say in Europe " It's yours, but is not yours ", and in fact, the Roman Law, lasted in this little country until 1992. I do not agree with you, with your theory about the tribute to the king of France, because in the creation of Andorra, neither France, neither Spain still existed. Later on, when France existed as state, found  " The Andorram Heritage ", because the Duke of Bearn, has rights there, and now, the land of Bearn, is part of France territory, so now, and always, France has never had a right of power over Andorra, for claiming it any tribute. This tribute, can be claimed by the existence of representation of Andorra all over, and other services, ( as pos!
tal services, educational services, and others ), and french people who is living there, ( less than spanish, about 30 % ). Andorra would be a type of " fideicomiso " for France and Spain ( ... as in Miami, the Cubans says  Lo Nuestro... ). Neither France and Spain, can imposed strict policies in that country, but certain yes, because, this country, in many aspects, depends from France and Spain. It is difficult to understand, more for an American.
And in response to the answer of  Mr Bonnet, certainly, since 1992, Andorra is more sovereign, than ever, but states as Canada, and Australia, also they are, but The Queen of England and United Kingdom, still has some power there, and France and Spain also have in Andorra. This is what Spaniards said,  ( Un Apaño  ).
 
Guillermo

>From: Glenn G Dahlem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Subject: [cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain 
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:06:28 -0700 
> 
>Dear Guillermo: 
> 
> Yes, I know that Andorra is a sovereign state, & has been a de 
>facto sovereign state certainly since about 1790, & probably since the 
>mid 12th Century. The token payments came about because the Directory, 
>the revolutionary government in Paris established after the fall of Louis 
>XVI, had sent the Andorran government a message. This message said 
>something like "Congratulations, we declare you free & don't want you to 
>report to us any more." (The wording is my own, but the meaning is 
>accurate.) The Andorrans were too smart to accept, because they knew 
>that if France gave up claim, the Spanish bishop would take over. So 
>they sent a message back saying "Thanks, but no thanks." (as Americans 
>say) They insisted that the token tribute payments continue to France & 
>to the Spanish bishop, because by being "under" both, they were 
>essentially under neither, & therefore free & independent. The recent 
>declaration of sovereignty merely formalized this de facto independence 
>into international law. 
> 
> Glenn G. Dahlem, en Los Estados Unidos 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Glenn G Dahlem]

Dear Guillermo:

Yes, I know that Andorra is a sovereign state, & has been a de
facto sovereign state certainly since about 1790, & probably since the
mid 12th Century.  The token payments came about because the Directory,
the revolutionary government in Paris established after the fall of Louis
XVI, had sent the Andorran government a message.  This message said
something like "Congratulations, we declare you free & don't want you to
report to us any more."  (The wording is my own, but the meaning is
accurate.)  The Andorrans were too smart to accept, because they knew
that if France gave up claim, the Spanish bishop would take over.  So
they sent a message back saying "Thanks, but no thanks."  (as Americans
say)  They insisted that the token tribute payments continue to France &
to the Spanish bishop, because by being "under" both, they were
essentially under neither, & therefore free & independent.  The recent
declaration of sovereignty merely formalized this de facto independence
into international law.

Glenn G. Dahlem, en Los Estados Unidos



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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[BONNET]

Sorry!
But since 1993 ANDORRA  IS NOW a sovereign 
state!!
ANDORRA has a  Constitution 
,representatives,Government
 
Chris.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Guillermo 
  Durán Cristóbal 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:15 
  PM
  Subject: [cafe] Re: "Token" payments to 
  France & Spain
  
  
  
  I think the word  " token 
  "  referred about a symbolic representation of Andorra to France or 
  Spain, it is not just symbolic, if we take Andorra is not a sovereign state, 
  because it depends the government of France, and the Bishop of La Seu 
  d'Urgell, ( Spain ).
  Symbolic, in my opinion, should be, 
  if this representation should be made by a third state as the USA or Great 
  Britain for example.
  These situation in Europe happens 
  with other small european countries, as San Marino, Monaco or 
  Liechtenstein.
   
  Guillermo
  
  >From: Glenn G Dahlem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  >Subject: [cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain 
  >Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:46:14 -0700 
  > 
  >The word "token" here means a symbolic representation, not a 
  small object 
  >made of metal or plastic. 
  > 
  > Glenn Dahlem, en Los Estados Unidos 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >Per donar-se de baixa: 
  http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_ca.php 
  >To unsubscribe: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_en.php 
  >-- AndorraWEB -- http://andorraweb.com 
  > 
  
  
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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Guillermo Durán Cristóbal]

I think the word  " token "  referred about a symbolic representation of Andorra to France or Spain, it is not just symbolic, if we take Andorra is not a sovereign state, because it depends the government of France, and the Bishop of La Seu d'Urgell, ( Spain ).
Symbolic, in my opinion, should be, if this representation should be made by a third state as the USA or Great Britain for example.
These situation in Europe happens with other small european countries, as San Marino, Monaco or Liechtenstein.
 
Guillermo

>From: Glenn G Dahlem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Subject: [cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain 
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:46:14 -0700 
> 
>The word "token" here means a symbolic representation, not a small object 
>made of metal or plastic. 
> 
> Glenn Dahlem, en Los Estados Unidos 
> 
> 
> 
>Per donar-se de baixa: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_ca.php 
>To unsubscribe: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_en.php 
>-- AndorraWEB -- http://andorraweb.com 
> 
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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Glenn G Dahlem]

The word "token" here means a symbolic representation, not a small object
made of metal or plastic.

Glenn Dahlem, en Los Estados Unidos



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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Jean Louis NEGRE]

what is your question? what sort of token ?(in french "jeton")I don't know
these token?
In Andorra we use coins of Europa : "euro"...

I am a french collector and your question is very attractive.

Do you speak french?

Visit my site: http://site.voila.fr/Monnaies.Andorre

[EMAIL PROTECTED]



- Original Message -
From: "Anonim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: [cafe] "Token" payments to France & Spain


> Does anyone know what the token payments Andorra makes to France & Spain
every two years for their international representation of Andorra?
>
>
> 
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> 
>




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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[E. J. Jewell]

In message <01c2793b$3faf9c60$c60413d5@g5j1b7>, Jean Louis NEGRE 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


what is your question? what sort of token ?(in french "jeton")I don't
know these token? In Andorra we use coins of Europa : "euro"...


Le question s'agit des "tributs" payés aux Co-Princes depuis plusieurs 
siècles.

En anglais "token sum" est un paiement de faible valeur.

The question relates to the "tributes" paid to the Co-Princes for many 
centuries.  The "Paréages" which established the joint sovereignty of 
Andorra required the Andorrans to pay a small sum of money alternately 
to the French co-prince and to the Bishop of Urgell.
--
E. J. Jewell   
 http://apsc.free.fr/> Andorran Philatelic Study Circle



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[cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain

[Guillermo Durán Cristóbal]

Benvolgut Jean Louis NEGRE.,
 
Llavors, i segons la teva web, ( que deuria ser bilingue, català - francès, com a mínim, si és refereix al Coprincipat d'Andorra ), quins pagaments ha de satisfer l'estat andorrà, tant a França, com a Espanya, per la seva representació a nivell internacional, quan aquestos casos és donen, i, en tot cas, és similar a la representació que Suïssa fa de la monarquia de Liechtenstein, on, ademés, és comparteix moneda, el franc suís, i moltes d'altres coses, com legislació bancària, laboral, de serveis, económica, i administrativa ?.
 
 
Guillem DURAN i CRISTOBAL

>From: "Jean Louis NEGRE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Subject: [cafe] Re: "Token" payments to France & Spain 
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:51:26 +0200 
> 
> 
> 
>what is your question? what sort of token ?(in french "jeton")I don't 
>know these token? In Andorra we use coins of Europa : "euro"... 
> 
>I am a french collector and your question is very attractive. 
> 
>Do you speak french? 
> 
>Visit my site: http://site.voila.fr/Monnaies.Andorre 
> 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> 
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Anonim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 9:36 AM 
>Subject: [cafe] "Token" payments to France & Spain 
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know what the token payments Andorra makes to France & 
> > Spain 
>every two years for their international representation of Andorra? 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Per donar-se de baixa: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_ca.php 
> > To unsubscribe: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_en.php 
> > -- AndorraWEB -- http://andorraweb.com 
> >  
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>Per donar-se de baixa: http://andorraweb.com/aw/caf/index_ca.php 
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> 
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