Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility
Fully agree. Well put, well thought out. Every sentence is right on. On Sat, 2/15/14, Rickey Holt wrote: Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility To: "'Caller's discussion list'" Date: Saturday, February 15, 2014, 1:58 PM Greg, I am afraid I fine it ironic at the very least, for you to call for a more civil discourse. Your tone has been so denigrating and disrespectful of others for so long that I too have been ignoring your posts pretty regularly. That is easy enough. But when I read that a caller as well established as Martha Wild has not posted for a long time because of the treatment she received from you on this list, I am much more worried. Far from encouraging an open exchange this is evidence that you have stifled it. As I remember it, folks posting here have tried to point this out to you several times in the past. Moderators, I propose that Greg not be allowed to post here for perhaps a month. I do not take such a step lightly and rather than suppressing free speech, this would encourge it. Rickey Holt -Original Message- From: callers-boun...@sharedweight.net [mailto:callers-boun...@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:28 PM To: Caller's discussion list Subject: Re: [Callers] A Call For Civility Lindsay wrote: > Well, you might want to walk this one back, then: > > >> "The dancers in your video look like a competent group of regulars > >> who > are > >> able to adapt to poorly-structured calls quickly and graciously. > >> I'm > sure > >> they have a lot of practice at it. I find it very productive to be > >> more diligent in my own calling." > Alright. I only watched part of the first video. I didn't really note who the caller was. And I certainly didn't mention any caller. (The names of the callers were inserted into my post by a subsequent poster. I never mentioned them.) I was trying to make the point that this was a group of regular contra dancers, with few, if any, first-timers in the crowd. Since there are no callers I know of who use structured calls regularly it is a sure bet that these folks have had lots of experience interpreting unstructured calls. I seldom call for such experienced groups. Consequently I use structured calls more than most callers do to maintain the confidence of newcomers. I should have been more clear in my post, and I should have anticipated that some folks might take it personally. I'm sorry about that. As a policy I try to avoid taking anything posted here personally unless it has my name on it. - Greg McKenzie West Coast, USA ___ Callers mailing list call...@sharedweight.net http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers ___ Callers mailing list call...@sharedweight.net http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Re: [Callers] Allemandes
OK, I don't usually enter these discussions because, although I find reading the posts interesting, by the time I see them, every possible opinion has already been expressed, with approximately equal vehemence on all sides, and as a result I don't usually feel that I have much to add. However, in this case I'll chime in that I agree with Eric, that the interlocking thumbs is rather nice, at least for those who can tolerate it. For one thing, it is how I learned to dance, and it feels more "right" that way. For another, it provides (in my opinion) a more firm connection between the dancers. (Here, Larry Jennings' description - in Zesty Contras - of what he called a "zesty" dancing style comes to mind.) But, as I point out in my beginners' sessions, some people - I am married to one - prefer not to have their thumbs involved, so they will come to you "without a thumb showing"… so, take what they give you and work with it. No big deal. Someone pointed out that the interlocking thumb grip doesn't fit their style of dancing, because (I gather) they do a lot of spinning, or something. That's fine, don't use the interlocking grip. In fact, please don't. No big deal. My main point is that personally, I would find it a loss if the interlocking grip went away entirely. I enjoy using it with others who know how to use it. On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:00 AM, callers-requ...@sharedweight.net wrote: > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > call...@sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > callers-requ...@sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > callers-ow...@sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Fuerst) > 2. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Dyck) > 3. Re: allemandes (Russell Frank) > 4. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Jerome Grisanti) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:43:11 -0800 (PST) > From: Michael Fuerst > To: Caller's discussion list > Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes > Message-ID: > <1392572591.59857.yahoomail...@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Thanks you Joy and Les for the suggested dances. ? ? > Does anyone have additional suggestions? > I think what I had in mind are dances where everyone allemandes 1 1/2 at > least once plus allemande 3/4 or more at least one additional time > ? > Michael Fuerst ? ? ?802 N Broadway ? ? ?Urbana IL 61801?? 217-239-5844 > > > > On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:25 AM, Aahz Maruch wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote: >> On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote: >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote: I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand. Interlocked was the wrong. >>> >>> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are >>> correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-) >> >> So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the >> thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a >> hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the >> safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my >> hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people >> grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way. > > Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish > man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily > what's appropriate for the general dancer population. > > So yeah, it's pretty much all about safety from my POV.? Any kind of > spinning move out of allemande or wave risks yanking the thumb.? And > actually, my concern is more about waves than allemandes: the grip is > mostly the same for both and the spinning half-sashy is pretty much > standard these days. > > I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either > the thumbs are interlocked or they're not.? (If each person's thumb can > touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're > interlocked.) > -- > Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://rule6.info/ > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? <*>? ? ? ? ? <*>? ? ? ? ? <*> > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html > > ___ > Callers mailing list > call...@sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:46:27 -0800 > Fr
Re: [Callers] Allemandes
My 2¢, for what it's worth: The worst that happens without thumbs is bad shared weight. And there's plenty of times when thumbs still meant no shared weight, so adding thumbs hardly guarantees avoiding thus issue. The worst that happens with thumbs is my wrist is torqued. Sadly, this is a frequent occurrence for me, at least around many dances in the Northeast. I usually get torqued on average once a night, and I dance defensively. I have never been injured without thumbs. I have with thumbs. That is the factual, empirical part of what I have to say. The opinion part: I believe that if thumbs is required for a good connection, then a dancer could consider whether they've learned how to properly share weight without thumbs. Dance safe, Ron Blechner Contradances.tumblr.com On Feb 17, 2014 6:44 PM, "joda_rogers" wrote: > OK, I don't usually enter these discussions because, although I find > reading the posts interesting, by the time I see them, every possible > opinion has already been expressed, with approximately equal vehemence on > all sides, and as a result I don't usually feel that I have much to add. > However, in this case I'll chime in that I agree with Eric, that the > interlocking thumbs is rather nice, at least for those who can tolerate it. > For one thing, it is how I learned to dance, and it feels more "right" > that way. For another, it provides (in my opinion) a more firm connection > between the dancers. (Here, Larry Jennings' description - in Zesty Contras > - of what he called a "zesty" dancing style comes to mind.) But, as I > point out in my beginners' sessions, some people - I am married to one - > prefer not to have their thumbs involved, so they will come to you "without > a thumb showing"... so, take what they give you and work with it. No big > deal. > > Someone pointed out that the interlocking thumb grip doesn't fit their > style of dancing, because (I gather) they do a lot of spinning, or > something. That's fine, don't use the interlocking grip. In fact, please > don't. No big deal. My main point is that personally, I would find it a > loss if the interlocking grip went away entirely. I enjoy using it with > others who know how to use it. > > On Feb 17, 2014, at 9:00 AM, callers-requ...@sharedweight.net wrote: > > > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > > call...@sharedweight.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > callers-requ...@sharedweight.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > callers-ow...@sharedweight.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Fuerst) > > 2. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Michael Dyck) > > 3. Re: allemandes (Russell Frank) > > 4. Re: Dances with three or more allemandes (Jerome Grisanti) > > > > > > -- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:43:11 -0800 (PST) > > From: Michael Fuerst > > To: Caller's discussion list > > Subject: Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes > > Message-ID: > > <1392572591.59857.yahoomail...@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Thanks you Joy and Les for the suggested dances. ? ? > > Does anyone have additional suggestions? > > I think what I had in mind are dances where everyone allemandes 1 1/2 at > least once plus allemande 3/4 or more at least one additional time > > ? > > Michael Fuerst ? ? ?802 N Broadway ? ? ?Urbana IL 61801?? > 217-239-5844 > > > > > > > > On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:25 AM, Aahz Maruch > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Erik Hoffman wrote: > >> On 2/15/2014 10:32 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote: > >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014, Michael Fuerst wrote: > > I should have said thumbs an wrapped around the other's hand. > Interlocked was the wrong. > >>> > >>> I do know people who believe that interlocked thumbs are > >>> correct, and I've been on a campaign to discourage the practice. ;-) > >> > >> So, Aahz, why do you want to eliminate it? I'm talking about the > >> thumbs up as guideposts, fingers hooked around the others hand, a > >> hook, not a grip, wrists straight, fingers curved. Is it just the > >> safety issue? I play music. I teach music. I worry a lot about my > >> hands! I have things I do to protect myself, and I don't let people > >> grab and grip, or bend my wrist in some painful way. > > > > Oddly enough, as has been pointed out here, you are a somewhat large-ish > > man -- that means your personal safety requirements are not necessarily > > what's appropriate for the general dancer population. > > > > So yeah, it's pretty much
Re: [Callers] Allemandes
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014, Ron Blechner wrote: > > The worst that happens with thumbs is my wrist is torqued. Sadly, this > is a frequent occurrence for me, at least around many dances in the > Northeast. I usually get torqued on average once a night, and I dance > defensively. The worst that I've heard of with thumbs is a jammed thumb. I haven't heard of anyone needing medical care, but I've heard of people getting injured thumbs. -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Jerome Grisanti wrote: > Aahz wrote to Erik: >> >> I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either >> the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can >> touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're >> interlocked.) > > I believe most dancers can make a distinction between holding your > hand in a position (e.g. with interlocking thumbs), and gripping based > on that same position. How can we best communicate that difference? Maybe they can make that distinction, but I sure can't based on what you're writing here. ;-) What is the distinction/difference? -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
As was annunciation (enunciation), perhaps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annunciation :P On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:18 PM, rich sbardella wrote: > was avid (avoid) a Freudian slip? > > > > From: rich sbardella > To: Erik Hoffman ; Caller's discussion list < > call...@sharedweight.net> > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance > > > Thanks Erik, > Your comments were helpful. I use Ladies and Gents so I connected, but > your annotation will help avid left/right confusion. Is there a standard > annotation for calls, and where do I find it? > Rich > > > > From: Erik Hoffman > To: rich sbardella ; Caller's discussion list < > call...@sharedweight.net> > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance > > > > On 2/13/2014 7:53 AM, rich sbardella wrote: > > I love the way the Hey is described in the dance below. As a caller > that is new to contra, the notation helps to understand the flow a little > better. > > Thanks, > > Rich > Snip >>> > > B1. Hey (LR, NL, GR, PL) > When I first looked at this, I had to get away from "Left Right" to > "Ladies Right." I'd write: (WR, NL, MR, PL). Then looking at this, one need > note this is a half-hey. I suppose the person jotting this down knows that, > but for the rest of us, adding a X2 could help. Then to be explicit, one > has to leave out the last PL. Thus to be totally accurate it's: > > (WR, NL, MR, PL, WR, NL, MR) > > Which is common, and only 7/8ths of a full hey... > > ~erik hoffman > oakland, ca > ___ > Callers mailing list > call...@sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > ___ > Callers mailing list > call...@sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers >
Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
On 2/17/2014 6:39 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote: On Sun, Feb 16, 2014, Jerome Grisanti wrote: Aahz wrote to Erik: I have no idea what you mean by "guideposts", though; from my POV either the thumbs are interlocked or they're not. (If each person's thumb can touch the other person's webbing between thumb and forefinger they're interlocked.) I believe most dancers can make a distinction between holding your hand in a position (e.g. with interlocking thumbs), and gripping based on that same position. How can we best communicate that difference? Maybe they can make that distinction, but I sure can't based on what you're writing here. ;-) What is the distinction/difference? This is probably one of those things that is easier to show than it is to explain in words. However, I'll give it a try. I think referring to "interlocking" could be a confusion. I wouldn't tell anyone to interlock their hands or thumbs. Instead I like to tell people to hook their fingers behind the other person's thumb, between the thumb and the wrist, and to keep their thumbs in the "thumbs up" position, not closing them on the other persons hand. That way either person can easily let go without any problem by just straightening their fingers. Nothing is holding their hands together except their own bent fingers. The hands and wrists should be held straight, without twisting or bending, so that when the fingers are straightened they will point at the other person's face (or thereabouts). Arms should be held with with a slight bend in the elbow, adjusting the distance between the dancers by bending the elbows greater or lesser, to enable them to get around in more or less time depending on the time allowed for the figure. All force should be straight along the arms from the shoulder of one person to the shoulder of the other, with no side force. That way it is easy to give the appropriate amount of "weight" without any twisting or bending of the wrists. In fact, I think that optimally both shoulders of both dancers, as well as their elbows and hands, should all lie in the same plane, perpendicular to the floor. So you might start by having the two dancers stand facing in opposite directions, pointing their (right) shoulders at each other, then extent their (right) arms towards the other person and hooking their fingers around the other's thumb/wrist junction, keeping their own thumbs pointing straight up. Jonathan - Jonathan Sivier Caller of Contra, English and Early American Dances jsivier AT illinois DOT edu Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html - Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? A: It depends on what dance you call!
Re: [Callers] Dances with three or more allemandes
[Lots of other posts trimmed...] Similar to a previous comment, and knowing one size does not fit all, I try to preface any "style points" with a fellow dancer with "it would help me if..." and then describe or show my desired interaction behavior. Puts the issue totally on me and makes it sound like I'm asking a favor of them to adjust to my needs, not correcting them -- if it leads to further good form from them generally thereafter, so much the better. I've not had a negative reaction to this since I started doing it. BTW, for allemandes I use a connection that I picked up somewhere in my contra travels (which sounds a lot like some of he best practices described to this point). I find this to be fairly common where I dance. As a picture is worth a thousand words, here it is (note I'm torqued slightly in these due to holding the camera with the other hand for the photo -- the normal connection is neutral and unstressed but results in good weight): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3My2DFMxZpOb3g1MVJWSS1lOGc/edit?usp=sharing -Don
